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Is it right to deny the American people jobs because of your religion?

work in progress

Well-Known Member
My comments are not aimed at anybody. It is just something to think about.
I would consider thinking about them to be something more than the usual 'I give to charity' or similar dodges that get used to justify supporting political and economic systems that create poverty and ecological destruction by design...not by accident. Capitalism cannot be reformed, and I would like more people to at least consider asking what other options an increasingly desperate world can turn to before it's too late, but so far, I find few who will even consider the scope and severity of the problem to begin with...let alone discuss possible solutions.

Human Resources (both energy and food) are limited supply. If every one lived like an American It would take 4 plant earths to provide the resources for us to maintain our life style. This means when the rich use too much, the poor has to make do with much less.
The last I heard, that number was 2.5 or 3 planet earths; but that's immaterial as the modern world is in a state of ecological overshoot -- using up both renewable and unrenewable resources at increasing rates: Global Footprint Network
has a series of pages describing how the global human footprint is calculated, and why any and every calculation based on resource-use finds increasing the rates of energy and resource use, at the same time over-exploitation has reduced future availability. What some population growth watchers fear the most is that the greed-driven capitalists will have their way until they crash civilization itself, and surviving populations will end up too isolated and too resource-poor to maintain the human race in a world that will keep growing hotter and more inhospitable for us for thousands of years into the future.

Among the list of scenarios for future maximum human population, none here are greater than 2 billion, and some like Jack Alpert see the degrading environment pushing the number down to less than 100 million. If these possibilities are too dire or bleak for some to deal with, they should go back to other issues, like whether MIA should have flipped off during Madonna's Superbowl lipsynching performance, or the merits of Whitney Houston's music, because there is no point to engaging in any serious discussion of economic and environment issues for people who can't face reality to begin with.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
I should add, for the record, that when I find the converging subjects of climate change, overpopulation, increasing food scarcity...becoming overwhelming, I switch to other topics and get away from these issues for awhile. The wrong thing to do, is to create some delusion that mediocre efforts will make a better world somehow. It's better to step away, and focus on other things before going back to look for any signs of improvement in the state of the world.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
I should add, for the record, that when I find the converging subjects of climate change, overpopulation, increasing food scarcity...becoming overwhelming, I switch to other topics and get away from these issues for awhile. The wrong thing to do, is to create some delusion that mediocre efforts will make a better world somehow. It's better to step away, and focus on other things before going back to look for any signs of improvement in the state of the world.
Don't hold your breath.
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
When I go out to eat, I keep other people who are supporting families employed. With their wages that they earn because they are serving me food, they feed and clothe their families. I pay taxes on that experience as well. Those go to support our infrastructure.

The problem with this is... yes this helps the rich ( Top 20% who makes over $10 a day). This very system is raping the poor. Poor countries must sell the very grain that they grow to companies like monsanto then buy it back at a much higher price or as a state they will be completely cut out of the world markets. You get chocolate on top of your Ice Cream made by Nestle who is killing over a million children in the 3 world every year by manipulating mothers in to using their baby formula with bad water supplies. To top it off an American will have a big fat piece of beef flesh that is the biggest cause of global warming due to the energy consumption to produce industrial meat products. Or, we instead have some sea food from an industry that is striping all life from the seas. There will be no Game fish in the ocean by the year 2050. The seas will be like a desert devoid of all large fish. I don't see this as simple.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
The problem with this is... yes this helps the rich ( Top 20% who makes over $10 a day). This very system is raping the poor. Poor countries must sell the very grain that they grow to companies like monsanto then buy it back at a much higher price or as a state they will be completely cut out of the world markets. You get chocolate on top of your Ice Cream made by Nestle who is killing over a million children in the 3 world every year by manipulating mothers in to using their baby formula with bad water supplies. To top it off an American will have a big fat piece of beef flesh that is the biggest cause of global warming due to the energy consumption to produce industrial meat products. Or, we instead have some sea food from an industry that is striping all life from the seas. There will be no Game fish in the ocean by the year 2050. The seas will be like a desert devoid of all large fish. I don't see this as simple.
I hate to give you even more bad news to look at...and you are likely familiar with many of these stories from other sources, but the Oakland Institute is probably the only agency in the U.S. which is trying to draw attention to the land grabs and chaos created in Third World (primarily Africa) by foreign corporations and national governments, buying cheap land and forcing locals out of their homes. Some quick facts:
56 million – total hectares of land (nearly the size of France) acquired in the developing world by international governments and investors since 2008.
70% of the population – in sub-Saharan Africa lives on their traditional lands that, because of colonial heritage, are classified as state lands in independent Africa. This is why governments believe that they can give away their land without consultation or legal redress.


And, as this article points out, they have different, but often interwoven motivations; so the modern plantation owners who want to raise cash crops do not criticize the foreign governments, such as China and Saudi Arabia, who are buying up millions of acres in already famine-threatened Africa. They refuse to criticize each other, much like competing corporations, so very little light is shone on this travesty in Western media:
According to Mittal, there are three kinds of investors: food-insecure nations, private equity funds seeking to take advantage of cheap land prices, and agribusiness corporations. Each has a slightly different motivation. Oil-rich nations like Saudi Arabia, where water and arable land are scarce, are seeking to insulate themselves from price fluctuations in global commodity markets by producing their own beef, corn, and sugar for import. Private equity funds based in financial centers like New York and London are seeking profitable returns on investments. Large agribusiness corporations — growing food, fibers, or biofuels — are also lured by profits, and bring the farming know-how to many deals.
Multinational corporations want more coffee, chocolate, biofuels, and other lucrative crops for their markets; China's water tables are in decline from their own agriculture already, so they are buying up Africa and South Asia to grow grain to turn into beef for their consumers who want more meat in their diet; and Saudi Arabia (which had been self-sufficient in grain production) suddenly realized that most of their irrigation water was coming from a fossil aquifer (underground source that is not replenished), so they are shutting down their agriculture at home, and creating modern plantations in Sudan and Ethiopia....all while a clueless West disparagingly remarks about why these people can't provide for themselves and need their charity! What good is your charity when it has come at the price of destroying the livelihoods of people who live half way around the world, out of sight and out of mind?

If the Oakland Institute had access to something more than fringe media in the U.S., I'd like to believe that the average American would rather shut down these foreign land grabs that are causing starvation, war and deprivation in the poorest nations, even if it raised beef prices, or the price of coffee or biofuels, but I'm not so sure that most who profess their Christian values wear those values anywhere but on their sleeves, where they can conveniently wipe them in the faces of others who they want to look down on!
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Hey, all I know is this. I buy local as much as possible. I buy my meat from local farms who raise their animals on local hay and local grains. I buy my milk and milk products from these local sources as well. Same with produce as much as possible (and in the South that's pretty easy). We buy very little junk food. We recycle. We drink filtered water rather than bottled water most of the time. We buy American made products whenever we can. Our vehicles were manufactured in the US. We try to live responsibly and treat the land and environment gently.

By the way, speaking of that, DON'T SUPPORT CARRIER CORPORATION. They are closing down our local plant and moving their operations to Mexico. They are the second unionized large employer in this area to move operations to Mexico.
 

Wannabe Yogi

Well-Known Member
It is troubling to read of the green crony capitalism that the President has engaged in. Saw once again another Friday night Solyndra information dump occurred. The White House seems to hoping we will forget about the money wasted.

Sorry but Michelle Malkin is the worse source you could possible use. I have seen her on TV defending the interment of Japanese Americans in WWII. She has no credabilty in my book. You can't believe a word she says.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Most of the Talking Heads on Fox and MSNBC are equally poor sources of "news," - more entertainment than anything else, and pretty poor entertainment at that!
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
If I am ever hard on you, it must known its all out of spite. I look at your family and say hay she's conservative why is her family more diverse then mine. And I am overwhelmed with jealousy.;)

LOL, I don't take most of this stuff on RF personally anyway.

Just a point. I'm not a conservative. I'm an independent thinker, a Christian with a very healthy dose of humanism added, a voter who has voted for candidates from numerous parties, including R, D, L, and other crazier ones, and an inquisitive mind which is open to accepting new information and making changes of opinion. I respect others' opinions and viewpoints because, who knows - I may share them given a similar set of circumstances and informational input. I am opinionated but then, I've packed a lot of living and a lot of experiences into my fifty years on this beautiful, tragic, delightful and difficult planet!

Thanks for the nod to my family - I do love it's diversity and I really appreciate the value my parents placed on fostering a respect for ALL humans, not just the ones "like us." I think I managed to pass that on to my kids, and I'm proud of them for passing that on to their own children.
 

work in progress

Well-Known Member
It is troubling to read of the green crony capitalism that the President has engaged in. Saw once again another Friday night Solyndra information dump occurred. The White House seems to hoping we will forget about the money wasted.

"It Wouldn’t Be Saturday Morning Without Another Friday Night Solyndra Document Dump to Sift Through"

Michelle Malkin » It Wouldn’t Be Saturday Morning Without Another Friday Night Solyndra Document Dump to Sift Through
Total waste of time! I'll see your Solyndra and bet my Heartland Institute chips, now that we know the biggest part of where the disinformation campaign money is going.....can't help noticing that a rightwing paid hack like Malkin isn't covering that story! But if you're so bent out of shape about the Bush and Obama Administrations squandering money on making solar panels, how do you feel about the billions you pay out every year in subsidies and tax credits and deferments to the carbon industries?
Budget hawks: Does US need to give gas and oil companies $41 billion a year?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
By the way, speaking of that, DON'T SUPPORT CARRIER CORPORATION. They are closing down our local plant and moving their operations to Mexico. They are the second unionized large employer in this area to move operations to Mexico.
Interesting difference in perspective. Right now, "Caterpillar" is a dirty word around here because of how they closed their plant in London, Ontario to move the jobs to the US.

We've even had a few retailers publicly remove Caterpillar-branded clothing from their stores in protest (which the cynical part of me says is a pretty low-cost PR opportunity, since probably very few people here would buy them anyhow).
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Interesting difference in perspective. Right now, "Caterpillar" is a dirty word around here because of how they closed their plant in London, Ontario to move the jobs to the US.

We've even had a few retailers publicly remove Caterpillar-branded clothing from their stores in protest (which the cynical part of me says is a pretty low-cost PR opportunity, since probably very few people here would buy them anyhow).

I think it's pretty interesting how quickly these unionized companies will just pack up and move out of the country.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I think it's pretty interesting how quickly these unionized companies will just pack up and move out of the country.
They face pretty stiff competition, particularly companies like Cat. Union culture is a glacial thing...not amenable to change for greater cost efficiency.
And they can't just ditch the unions at a location, so it means moving production elsewhere. Companies must adapt quickly or go under.

I had a couple year job designing a heavy truck air brake control system for GM in Pontiac MI. When we started building systems to test, management
cautioned me that I wasn't allowed to wake up any of the assembly workers (all unionized) who were sleeping on my job.
A friend at another auto company had an engineering project which required that an electrician run some wires for him. The sparky was new, & started
a job to pull 16 wires thru a conduit, expecting to finish in one day. A union goon caught him at it, & sternly informed him that he was allowed to pull
only one wire per day, lest they lose overtime work & pay.
Such stories abound, many involving union violence & threats.
 
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Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
:sarcastic

Are Reverend Rick and Rick Santorum the same Rick?

Santorum stated that Obama's energy policy is "phony theology".

Our own Rev Rick also claims that being pro-green is akin to religious belief.

Very suspicious! :eek:
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
:sarcastic
Are Reverend Rick and Rick Santorum the same Rick?
Santorum stated that Obama's energy policy is "phony theology".
Our own Rev Rick also claims that being pro-green is akin to religious belief.
Very suspicious! :eek:
I've never seen them in the same room together!

I prefer the Rev Rick persona....it's more thoughtful....smarter.
 
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