Is Jesus Eternal?

[Trailblazer]

If you believe Jesus is the Word then yes, John 1 says the Word is God and as God is eternal so must the Word be.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I believe that the Word refers to Jesus but that doesn't mean that Jesus was actually God.
The Word was God because Jesus was God manifested in the flesh

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I do not believe that Jesus was God incarnated in the flesh, because God cannot become flesh:

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

I believe that the following two verses are about God, not about Jesus. All things were made by God.

John 1
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Holy Spirit and the Word are the "appearance of God." The Word means the divine perfections that "appeared" in Jesus Christ. The Word (Jesus) was made flesh and dwelt among us means that Jesus, who had previously been with God in the spiritual world (heaven) before His birth, was born into this world (made flesh) and walked among us.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I believe that the reason John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God," is because Jesus was 'with God' in the spiritual world 'in the beginning.'

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to picture His state of being.

(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

 

[Trailblazer]

Eternal, by definition, is that which lasts forever; without beginning and without end.

Jesus was born. We know this because his birth is celebrated on this day every year by Christians worldwide.

I've also heard it said that Jesus is eternal. Is this possible? If His beginning is celebrated each year, he obviously has a beginning. So how is it possible that Jesus is eternal?

I do not believe that Jesus is eternal, I believe that only God is eternal.
I believe that the soul of Jesus existed in the spiritual world before the body of Jesus was born into this world, but I don't know if the spiritual world is eternal (has always existed).

#22 Trailblazer

 

[Rival]

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent.

This interests me most. Why is this?

 

[Colt]

Eternal, by definition, is that which lasts forever; without beginning and without end.

Jesus was born. We know this because his birth is celebrated on this day every year by Christians worldwide.

I've also heard it said that Jesus is eternal. Is this possible? If His beginning is celebrated each year, he obviously has a beginning. So how is it possible that Jesus is eternal?

Jesus came into being in the eternal past. He incarnate on earth as Marrys child, eventually laying down his life and returning to the spirit world. Presumably he will continue to live on forever.

 

[Trailblazer]

Also, John has Jesus say "Before Abraham was, I AM," which is clear identification with the name of God used to Moses. So, John certainly had this idea of Jesus as the eternal manifestation of God in his mind as he wrote his gospel.

I believe there is a misunderstanding of the meaning of the verse where Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM."
Most Christians believe it means that Jesus was God, but I believe it means that the soul of Jesus existed in the spiritual world before Abraham lived in this world. Since the soul is the person, that means that the person of Jesus existed in the spiritual world before the body of Jesus was born into this world. #22 Trailblazer

 

[muhammad_isa]

I do not believe that Jesus was God incarnated in the flesh, because God cannot become flesh:

No, it's illogical.
Almighty God is omniscient.

A human being cannot be aware of all events in the past and future .. it makes no sense. A human being cannot be aware of every atom, and maintain natural law.

Saying that Jesus behaved like a perfect human being, free from sin, is entirely different than claiming he is God.

 

[Trailblazer]

This interests me most. Why is this?

The Prophets (who are also Manifestations of God) are called pre-existent because their souls existed in the spiritual world before their bodies were born into this world. That is 'unlike' any of us ordinary humans since our souls come into existence at the time of conception so we did not exist before conception.

Baha'is believe that there is more than one kind of prophet.

The Three Kinds of Prophets

Prophets who are also Manifestations of God have a twofold nature, human and divine, so they existed with God in the spiritual world before they were born into this world. Other kinds of prophets are only human like the rest of us so they came into existence at the time of conception.

 

[Jainarayan]

This might be an appropriate day to set aside mockery ...

Every day is an appropriate day to set aside mockery. I’m happy to start with one day, one day at a time.

 

[Jainarayan]

Eternal, by definition, is that which lasts forever; without beginning and without end.

Jesus was born. We know this because his birth is celebrated on this day every year by Christians worldwide.

I've also heard it said that Jesus is eternal. Is this possible? If His beginning is celebrated each year, he obviously has a beginning. So how is it possible that Jesus is eternal?

From my beliefs and pov, as my signature says Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be. Followed on by I am the Soul seated in the hearts of all beings. I am the beginning, the middle and end of all beings.

So for those who believe in Jesus as having been born and was/is a living being like one of us, then he is eternal. His body is not but his being is.

 

[Trailblazer]

Now this sounds as if you are asking for critical analysis, because theists will justify any belief if they want to believe it. They don't follow an objective process. They will look at texts and find a way to justify belief in an idea and/or an interpretation, but this doesn't mean they examine the ideas objectively with tests in reality.

There is no way to examine ideas (such as whether Jesus is eternal) objectively with tests in reality, because religious beliefs are not subject to testing. Only things that exist in the physical world are subject to testing.

All we have to know about these spiritual things are the religious texts. People who don't go by these texts imagine all kinds of things about God and Jesus which have no basis.

But to answer this dilemma, many Christians divide Jesus' body from his spirit. The flesh dies while the spirit is eternal. It's the material and immaterial. This is how our souls end up in heaven or hell for eternity.

Yes, that's all true. Flesh and spirit are separate, material and immaterial, and our souls live on for eternity.

 

[Windwalker]

I believe there is a misunderstanding of the meaning of the verse where Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I AM."
Most Christians believe it means that Jesus was God, but I believe it means that the soul of Jesus existed in the spiritual world before Abraham lived in this world. Since the soul is the person, that means that the person of Jesus existed in the spiritual world before the body of Jesus was born into this world. #22 Trailblazer

Invoking the title "I AM" is a very deliberate provocative statement, as it is directly referencing the title of God to his audience. The following verse shows their reaction to such a blasphemous statement. "At this they picked up stones to stone him". Do you think they would want to put him to death for claiming to have a soul?

If you'd like a clearer statement about how John has Jesus identifying himself with the eternal Divine, then look at John 10:30. "I and my Father are One". Now, you might say that means one in purpose and intent, but all you need to do is keep reading to see again this automatic reaction to put him to death by stoning.

"Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
​

The Pharises certainly thought they were one in purpose with God, so clearly John is having Jesus claim something far greater than that, or that he merely has a soul, like all of us do. They don't seek to put people to death for something so commonplace. John even spells it out, "because you, a mere man, claim to be God". Consistently in John, they are seeking to put Jesus to death for claiming to be that very God they claimed to worship. "If you had known the Father, you would have known me". He says.

In regards to your post #22 speaking about John 1:1, your very incorrect about it in your understanding. The Logos (translated word), is God. It says that very clearly in John's gospel, in the first verse, "and the Logos was God". And it very clearly says "The Logos became flesh". No debating that. Of course Jesus the human, the flesh part, is not God. But Jesus is the incarnate Logos, directly declared by the author of John. That part, the Divine part, is eternal. And that is what Jesus was referring to when he declared, "Before Abraham was I AM". He was the Logos. That's John's entire gospel from verse 1 forward.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..then look at John 10:30. "I and my Father are One". Now, you might say that means one in purpose and intent, but all you need to do is keep reading to see again this automatic reaction to put him to death by stoning.

"Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

Maybe, but Jesus did not claim to be God .. but a son of God

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
- John 10 -

They don't seek to put people to death for something so commonplace..

Who's "they" ?

John even spells it out, "because you, a mere man, claim to be God".

Who's John, and why is his Gospel so different from the other three?

It says that very clearly in John's gospel, in the first verse, "and the Logos was God". And it very clearly says "The Logos became flesh". No debating that..

..but Jesus is not reported to have uttered that prologue.
It is the opinion of the author who presumably wrote it.
Some scholars think that the prologue was added later..
..who knows.

That's John's entire gospel from verse 1 forward.

Yeah .. John's opinion .. not that of Jesus.

 

[Vouthon]

Eternal, by definition, is that which lasts forever; without beginning and without end.

Jesus was born. We know this because his birth is celebrated on this day every year by Christians worldwide.

I've also heard it said that Jesus is eternal. Is this possible? If His beginning is celebrated each year, he obviously has a beginning. So how is it possible that Jesus is eternal?

According to the beliefs assumed in the NT and by early Christians, yes.

A consensus of scholars concur that the NT teaches the eternal pre-existence of Jesus i.e. 1 Corinthians 8:4-6, where explicitly the “Lord Jesus Christ” is posited as the one “through whom are all things". In the case of NT texts about Jesus, they typically place him as “there” at, and as the divine agent of, the creation of all things. Consider the likes of 1 Corinthians 8:4-6; Hebrews 1:1-2; John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:15-16 and Philippians 2:6-8.

Throughout the text of the Gospel of John, the en (was God) from the Johannine prologue in the first line of the gospel (i.e. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God), is picked up as ego eimi in the absolute form without predicate and placed in the mouth of Jesus, such as in phrases like, "Before Abraham was, I am (ego eimi)" (John 8:58) which is intended to mimic how the LXX alludes to the tetragrammaton: “I AM' [ego eimi] who comforts you” (Isa. 51:12 LXX), as God's self-referential of His uniqueness.

An interesting parallel verse to consider, from later in John's gospel, is John 8:58:


εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί.

(Literally) "Jesus said to them: "Truly, before Abraham came into being (γενέσθαι genesthai), I am (ego eimi)". So they picked up stones to throw at him"

This verse uses different tenses of the exact same terms genesthai "came into being / came to be" and eimi "am" (en "was") that are used in the prologue.

In most translations - such as the NRSV and KJV - genesthai is in this verse is rendered: "before Abraham was" (in the NIV, "before Abraham was born") because it is in the past tense (referring to a coming into being in time at some point in the past).

But Jesus, on the other hand, is never referred to with any tense of the verb ginomai (except when the prologue says, "the Word became (egeneto) flesh" for when He entered into time in a mortal body/tabernacle).

In the prologue, the Word isn't described as "In the beginning was (genesthai) the Word" (which would mean, the Word came into being in the beginning) but rather "In the beginning was (en) the Word" using the imperfect past continuous tense of eimi (am).

Compare with Abraham in this verse: as a creature, a created being who came into existence at some point in time, he is ginomai/genesthai. The Word incarnate in Jesus, on the other hand, is eimi/en - that is to say, he impliedly just is according to the author, an eternally subsisting and pre-existing 'being' that never came into being within time.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you'd like a clearer statement about how John has Jesus identifying himself with the eternal Divine, then look at John 10:30. "I and my Father are One". Now, you might say that means one in purpose and intent, but all you need to do is keep reading to see again this automatic reaction to put him to death by stoning.

Sure, the Jews thought that Jesus was claiming to be God when He said “I and my Father are one” but that does not mean that Jesus was actually claiming to be God.

Jesus was the Son of God, but the Son is not identical to the Father since the Father possesses certain Attributes that the Son does not possess: The Attributes that are unique to God: Unchanging, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, and Immaterial, and nobody except God can have those Attributes.

However, the Father is in the Son because Jesus was like a clear mirror, and God became visible in the mirror. This is why Jesus said, “The Father is in the Son” (John 14:11, John 17:21), meaning that God is visible and manifest in Jesus.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

I have my own interpretation of the verse “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30). I believe it means that Jesus and God are one in the sense that whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one. Jesus also shares the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one. The verse below says that God was manifest in the flesh; it does not say that God became flesh. God cannot become flesh because God is and has always been immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived, everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God was manifest in the flesh and that is why Jesus said to the Jews:

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

John 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Eternal, by definition, is that which lasts forever; without beginning and without end.

Jesus was born. We know this because his birth is celebrated on this day every year by Christians worldwide.

I've also heard it said that Jesus is eternal. Is this possible? If His beginning is celebrated each year, he obviously has a beginning. So how is it possible that Jesus is eternal?

The Divinity of Christ, like the Eternal aspect of His being is a theological concept, not a physical phenomenon. Clearly the body of Jesus begun in the womb of Mary and perished on the Cross. The question of 'Eternity' is one that transcends physical reality.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Eternal, by definition, is that which lasts forever; without beginning and without end.................................... I've also heard it said that Jesus is eternal. Is this possible? If His beginning is celebrated each year, he obviously has a beginning. So how is it possible that Jesus is eternal?

I find at Psalms 90:2 that God is eternal being from everlasting to everlasting (can't die).
In other words, God (the Creator) was ' before ' anything else.
On the other hand, pre-human heavenly Jesus was " in " the beginning but Not ' before ' the beginning as his God was.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Eternal, by definition, is that which lasts forever; without beginning and without end.

Jesus was born. We know this because his birth is celebrated on this day every year by Christians worldwide.

I've also heard it said that Jesus is eternal. Is this possible? If His beginning is celebrated each year, he obviously has a beginning. So how is it possible that Jesus is eternal?

His spirit and teaching last as long as people remember.

 

[Rival]

The Divinity of Christ, like the Eternal aspect of His being is a theological concept, not a physical phenomenon. Clearly the body of Jesus begun in the womb of Mary and perished on the Cross. The question of 'Eternity' is one that transcends physical reality.

What do you mean by 'perished on the cross'? If you mean he literally died, I agree; but to play a Christian devil's advocate Jesus rose again with a physical body as we see from Thomas touching the wounds and Jesus eating fish etc. The physical body is a necessary part of the theology.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Maybe, but Jesus did not claim to be God .. but a son of God
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? - John 10 -....................Who's John, and why is his Gospel so different from the other three?...........

Yes, Jesus did Not lie when he answered at John 10:36 that he is the Son of God.
John agrees at John 20:31 that Jesus is the Son of God.....
John was the last Bible writer to write, so there was No need to just go over the already written other 3 gospel accounts.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What do you mean by 'perished on the cross'? If you mean he literally died, I agree; but to play a Christian devil's advocate Jesus rose again with a physical body as we see from Thomas touching the wounds and Jesus eating fish etc. The physical body is a necessary part of the theology.

Resurrected Jesus used materialized physical bodies at John 20:19 and later at John 20:26.
Jesus appeared indoors though doors that were closed shut.
P.S. Jesus said at John 20:17 that he was going to ascend to his Father, his God.
Jesus did Not appear in front of himself - Hebrews 9:24.
The resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him according to Revelation 3:12