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Is Jesus God?

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
“Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58).

To understand it that way, is bad English. Jesus was only saying He was alive when Abraham lived.

Which rendering agrees with the context? The question of the Jews, in verse 57, to which Jesus was replying had to do with age, not identity. Jesus’ reply logically dealt with his age, the length of his existence. Interestingly, no effort is ever made to apply e·goʹ ei·miʹ as a title to the holy spirit.

A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, by A. T. Robertson, says: “The verb [ei·miʹ] . . . Sometimes it does express existence as a predicate like any other verb, as in [e·goʹ ei·miʹ].”—Nashville, Tenn.; 1934, p. 394.

In the very next chapter of John's gospel, at John 9:9, was the former blind man calling himself, the I Am? (Same Greek words, egō eimi, are used.)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Greetings KMG. I haven't been on this site in a while but thought I might as well dive in again while I have some free time. This thread seemed as good as any.
I would like to address your points if I may.....

Jesus has all of the attributes of God.

Jesus has all the attributes of God because he too was created in his Father's image. He is the exact representation of him in his qualities and and actions.
He is the divine "son of God". But by the very nature of sonship, the Father must exist first, in order to "beget" a son. So there has to be a time when the son did not exist. His "only begotten" status occurred long before his sojourn on earth as Messiah. He is a unique son of God, but certainly not the only one. [Gen 6:4; Job 1:6; Psalm 89:6; Matt 5:9]


His ability to know what is in the hearts of men, what was to befall him as Messiah and what was happening in the lives of others was bestowed on him at his baptism.
Holy Spirit was granted to the son when he became God's anointed one. Before then, he had no special abilities.
But he obviously didn't know everything. Some things the Father kept to himself. [Matt 24:36]


Where two or three are gathered in his name, Jesus, as king of God's kingdom, is leading them by holy spirit. The Bible never says that God is "omnipresent".
Jesus promised to guide and direct the preaching work that he foretold for these "last days" before he brings an end to this wicked world. (Matt 28:20; 24:14)
His use of God's spirit is a protection for his disciples, though not always physically. It can give them the courage to face death.


Matt 28:18 makes it clear that the authority Jesus has is "given" to him by his Father. He has no authority without his God.

His ability to resurrect the dead came from holy spirit.....his apostles too were able to raise the dead. They were not God.

At Revelation 22:13, the "Alpha and Omega" is also said to be “the first and the last,” which is applied to Jesus at Revelation 1:17, 18. Similarly, the expression “apostle” is applied both to Jesus Christ and to certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person or are of equal rank, does it? (Heb. 3:1)
So the evidence points to the conclusion that the title “Alpha and Omega” applies to Almighty God, the Father, not to the Son.

He depends on nothing outside of himself for life (John 1:4; 14:6; 8:58),

Is that what these scriptures are actually saying?

John 14:6 is actually a good scripture for proving that Jesus isn't God:

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

As Christians we have to come to the Father "through" his son. If Jesus was God how does this work? Why can't we just come to Jesus?

In Philippians 2:11 it says: "and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Surely if Jesus was God, he would be doing all things to his own glory?

He is immutable. He never changes. Hebrews 13:8
This is obviously speaking about his personality, because he was certainly not the same as the man Jesus Christ, neither before his human birth nor as the spirit being he became when he returned to heaven where YHWH continued to be his "God" [Rev 3:12]


As God's appointed King, of course he does. [Dan 7:13, 14]

He never began to exist and never will cease to exist (John 1:1; 8:58),

John 1:1 says that "the Word" (LOGOS) "became flesh", not that God became flesh. The Word was "with God" "in the beginning"....God had no beginning, but Jesus did.
Revelation 3:14 says: “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation."

In John 1:18 Jesus is called "the only begotten god". Almighty God is not begotten.

"Monogenes" means an "only child" and is used that way in the Bible pertaining to humans.

John 8:58 is often used to suggest that Jesus is claiming to be God, but when you read this verse in context, he is telling the Jews how old he is. He existed before Abraham.

"I AM" was never the correct translation of YHWH in the first place. Yahweh (Jehovah in English) is the causative form; the imperfect state, of the Heb. verb ha·wahʹ (become or be); meaning “He Causes to Be [or Become]”

Please see this expression as it is used in Strongs Concordance and observe how the phrase "I am" is translated in other verses. You will see clearly that it doesn't mean what you think it does.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1510&t=NASB

At Matt 3:11 John the Baptist used this same expression when speaking about Jesus: "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
It's the same expression used, but it doesn't mean that John is God...does it?

He is our Creator (Colossians 1:16).

Is that what this verse says? Look at it again and we will include verse 15.
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him."

What does "firstborn of all creation" mean? He was "born", (or came into existence) like other sons of God, but by a different or unique process.

The son of God was used as the agency "through" whom all other creation came to into being, but he is not the Creator. [Prov 8:22, 30, 31]

In other words, everything that God is, Jesus is. For Jesus is God.

No. Jesus is God's son, which is what he called himself. He so perfectly represented his Father that seeing the son was like looking at the Father. They are not one personage, but an awesome team, working together along with the power behind creation...God's holy spirit.

I cannot find one single admission from either God or Jesus that even suggests that there is any equality between them. I find the son continually deferring to his God is all things....don't you?

If you can supply one scripture that categorically states that Jesus is Almighty God, I would like to discuss it with you.[/quote]
 
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roger1440

I do stuff
To understand it that way, is bad English. Jesus was only saying He was alive when Abraham lived.

Which rendering agrees with the context? The question of the Jews, in verse 57, to which Jesus was replying had to do with age, not identity. Jesus’ reply logically dealt with his age, the length of his existence. Interestingly, no effort is ever made to apply e·goʹ ei·miʹ as a title to the holy spirit.

A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, by A. T. Robertson, says: “The verb [ei·miʹ] . . . Sometimes it does express existence as a predicate like any other verb, as in [e·goʹ ei·miʹ].”—Nashville, Tenn.; 1934, p. 394.

In the very next chapter of John's gospel, at John 9:9, was the former blind man calling himself, the I Am? (Same Greek words, egō eimi, are used.)
So the Jews wanted to stone Jesus because he claimed to be some old guy?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So the Jews wanted to stone Jesus because he claimed to be some old guy?

Actually, they were looking for an excuse to have him put to death. Blasphemy was an offense that carried the death penalty. It wasn't Jesus who ever claimed to be God...it was the Jews who were saying that, so that they could have a valid excuse to stone him.
When that failed, they resorted to blackmailing a public official so that he would have that false Messiah executed under Roman law. When Pilate found him innocent of any charge, they threatened to report him for sedition, which was also punishable by death. You think that the ones whom Jesus called "liars" and "from their father the devil" could be trusted to call the shots accurately? Really?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
So the Jews wanted to stone Jesus because he claimed to be some old guy?


Not only that -- claiming to be over 1800 years old -- but Jesus also said they were "from (their) Father the Devil" (John 8:44) because they were already inclined to kill him. He stated that, twice, in verses 37 and 40.

Question: If Jesus was referring to himself as God, why would he even refer to himself as the Son of man in John 8:28, or John 3:14 or Matthew 26:64, etc.? Did he want to confuse people? It's only confusing when trying to apply the trinity doctrine to explain God. Jesus stated it quite plainly at John 20:17. The God of the Jews (Yahweh) was/is who Jesus worshipped, and still does.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Greetings KMG. I haven't been on this site in a while but thought I might as well dive in again while I have some free time. This thread seemed as good as any.
I would like to address your points if I may.....



Jesus has all the attributes of God because he too was created in his Father's image. He is the exact representation of him in his qualities and and actions.
He is the divine "son of God". But by the very nature of sonship, the Father must exist first, in order to "beget" a son. So there has to be a time when the son did not exist. His "only begotten" status occurred long before his sojourn on earth as Messiah. He is a unique son of God, but certainly not the only one. [Gen 6:4; Job 1:6; Psalm 89:6; Matt 5:9]



His ability to know what is in the hearts of men, what was to befall him as Messiah and what was happening in the lives of others was bestowed on him at his baptism.
Holy Spirit was granted to the son when he became God's anointed one. Before then, he had no special abilities.
But he obviously didn't know everything. Some things the Father kept to himself. [Matt 24:36]



Where two or three are gathered in his name, Jesus, as king of God's kingdom, is leading them by holy spirit. The Bible never says that God is "omnipresent".
Jesus promised to guide and direct the preaching work that he foretold for these "last days" before he brings an end to this wicked world. (Matt 28:20; 24:14)
His use of God's spirit is a protection for his disciples, though not always physically. It can give them the courage to face death.



Matt 28:18 makes it clear that the authority Jesus has is "given" to him by his Father. He has no authority without his God.

His ability to resurrect the dead came from holy spirit.....his apostles too were able to raise the dead. They were not God.

At Revelation 22:13, the "Alpha and Omega" is also said to be “the first and the last,” which is applied to Jesus at Revelation 1:17, 18. Similarly, the expression “apostle” is applied both to Jesus Christ and to certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person or are of equal rank, does it? (Heb. 3:1)
So the evidence points to the conclusion that the title “Alpha and Omega” applies to Almighty God, the Father, not to the Son.



Is that what these scriptures are actually saying?

John 14:6 is actually a good scripture for proving that Jesus isn't God:

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

As Christians we have to come to the Father "through" his son. If Jesus was God how does this work? Why can't we just come to Jesus?

In Philippians 2:11 it says: "and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Surely if Jesus was God, he would be doing all things to his own glory?


This is obviously speaking about his personality, because he was certainly not the same as the man Jesus Christ, neither before his human birth nor as the spirit being he became when he returned to heaven where YHWH continued to be his "God" [Rev 3:12]



As God's appointed King, of course he does. [Dan 7:13, 14]



John 1:1 says that "the Word" (LOGOS) "became flesh", not that God became flesh. The Word was "with God" "in the beginning"....God had no beginning, but Jesus did.
Revelation 3:14 says: “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation."

In John 1:18 Jesus is called "the only begotten god". Almighty God is not begotten.

"Monogenes" means an "only child" and is used that way in the Bible pertaining to humans.

John 8:58 is often used to suggest that Jesus is claiming to be God, but when you read this verse in context, he is telling the Jews how old he is. He existed before Abraham.

"I AM" was never the correct translation of YHWH in the first place. Yahweh (Jehovah in English) is the causative form; the imperfect state, of the Heb. verb ha·wahʹ (become or be); meaning “He Causes to Be [or Become]”

Please see this expression as it is used in Strongs Concordance and observe how the phrase "I am" is translated in other verses. You will see clearly that it doesn't mean what you think it does.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1510&t=NASB

At Matt 3:11 John the Baptist used this same expression when speaking about Jesus: "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
It's the same expression used, but it doesn't mean that John is God...does it?



Is that what this verse says? Look at it again and we will include verse 15.
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him."

What does "firstborn of all creation" mean? He was "born", (or came into existence) like other sons of God, but by a different or unique process.

The son of God was used as the agency "through" whom all other creation came to into being, but he is not the Creator. [Prov 8:22, 30, 31]



No. Jesus is God's son, which is what he called himself. He so perfectly represented his Father that seeing the son was like looking at the Father. They are not one personage, but an awesome team, working together along with the power behind creation...God's holy spirit.

I cannot find one single admission from either God or Jesus that even suggests that there is any equality between them. I find the son continually deferring to his God is all things....don't you?

If you can supply one scripture that categorically states that Jesus is Almighty God, I would like to discuss it with you.
[/QUOTE]

DeJe with the cute little dogs?
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
"MANY people view the Trinity as “the central doctrine of the Christian religion.” According to this teaching, the Father, Son, and holy spirit are three persons in one God. Cardinal John O’Connor stated about the Trinity: “We know that it is a very profound mystery, which we don’t begin to understand.” Why is the Trinity so difficult to understand?

The Illustrated Bible Dictionary gives one reason. Speaking of the Trinity, this publication admits: “It is not a biblical doctrine in the sense that any formulation of it can be found in the Bible.” Because the Trinity is “not a biblical doctrine,” Trinitarians have been desperately looking for Bible texts—even twisting them—to find support for their teaching.

A Text That Teaches the Trinity?
One example of a Bible verse that is often misused is John 1:1. In theKing James Version, that verse reads: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [Greek, ton the·on′], and the Word was God [the·os′].” This verse contains two forms of the Greek noun the·os′(god). The first is preceded by ton (the), a form of the Greek definite article, and in this case the word the·on′ refers to Almighty God. In the second instance, however, the·os′ has no definite article. Was the article mistakenly left out?

Why is the Trinity doctrine so difficult to understand?

The Gospel of John was written in Koine, or common Greek, which has specific rules regarding the use of the definite article. Bible scholar A. T. Robertson recognizes that if both subject and predicate have articles, “both are definite, treated as identical, one and the same, and interchangeable.” Robertson considers as an example Matthew 13:38, which reads: “The field [Greek, ho a·gros′] is the world [Greek, ho ko′smos].” The grammar enables us to understand that the world is also the field.

What, though, if the subject has a definite article but the predicate does not, as in John 1:1? Citing that verse as an example, scholar James Allen Hewett emphasizes: “In such a construction the subject and predicate are not the same, equal, identical, or anything of the sort.”

To illustrate, Hewett uses 1 John 1:5, which says: “God is light.” In Greek, “God” is ho the·os′ and therefore has a definite article. But phosfor “light” is not preceded by any article. Hewett points out: “One can always . . . say of God He is characterized by light; one cannot always say of light that it is God.” Similar examples are found at John 4:24, “God is a Spirit,” and at 1 John 4:16, “God is love.” In both of these verses, the subjects have definite articles but the predicates, “Spirit” and “love,” do not. So the subjects and predicates are not interchangeable. These verses cannot mean that “Spirit is God” or “love is God.”

Identity of “the Word”?
Many Greek scholars and Bible translators acknowledge that John 1:1 highlights, not the identity, but a quality of “the Word.” Says Bible translator William Barclay: “Because [the apostle John] has no definite article in front of theos it becomes a description . . . John is not here identifying the Word with God. To put it very simply, he does not say that Jesus was God.” Scholar Jason David BeDuhn likewise says: “In Greek, if you leave off the article from theos in a sentence like the one in John 1:1c, then your readers will assume you mean ‘a god.’ . . . Its absence makes theos quite different than the definite ho theos, as different as ‘a god’ is from ‘God’ in English.” BeDuhn adds: “In John 1:1, the Word is not the one-and-only God, but is a god, or divine being.” Or to put it in the words of Joseph Henry Thayer, a scholar who worked on theAmerican Standard Version: “The Logos [or, Word] was divine, not the divine Being himself.”

Jesus made a clear distinction between him and his Father

Does the identity of God have to be “a very profound mystery”? It did not seem so to Jesus. In his prayer to his Father, Jesus made a clear distinction between him and his Father when he said: “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3) If we believe Jesus and understand the plain teaching of the Bible, we will respect him as the divine Son of God that he is. We will also worship Jehovah as “the only true God.”

99.999% of all Bible translations, whether they be written in English, French, German, or another language, say the Word was God.
These Bibles were translated by the world's greatest Hebrew and Greek scholars. Every single one of these Bibles are considered to be inspired by God.

On the other hand, the NWT is considered to be a corrupt paraphrase by most Christians. I own a copy the Kingdom Interlinear, and it sickens me to see the additions and omissions in the New World Mistranslation. Even someone like me, who is not an expert in the Greek, can see the abuse.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

It amazes me the length of time people like yourself will spend trying to prove Jesus is not God when every reputable Bible says He is, and not just in John 1:1.

It amazes me to see how people will go to such lengths to try to prove a verse doesn't mean what it says and says what it means. But that is how Satan operates. He undermines the word of God. It's been his MO since the dawn of time.
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
Before Abraham was, I am. What would that mean? Jesus is saying that the Gospel and the Messiah was preached before Abraham, and it was. Right from the beginning. People knew about a coming Messiah and about the coming kingdom that would be here someday. Jesus did not pre-exist.
I see a similarity here.

God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and that if they did eat from it, they would die.

Then along came the serpent saying, "you surely will NOT die."

The serpent was essentially telling Eve that God didn't mean what He said. God didn't say what He really meant.

And now, you moorea, you say that God didn't mean what He said. He didn't say what He meant.

Seems like you and the serpent have much in common.

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." John 8:58

Jesus said what He meant, and meant what He said.
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
Actually, they were looking for an excuse to have him put to death. Blasphemy was an offense that carried the death penalty. It wasn't Jesus who ever claimed to be God...it was the Jews who were saying that, so that they could have a valid excuse to stone him.
When that failed, they resorted to blackmailing a public official so that he would have that false Messiah executed under Roman law. When Pilate found him innocent of any charge, they threatened to report him for sedition, which was also punishable by death. You think that the ones whom Jesus called "liars" and "from their father the devil" could be trusted to call the shots accurately? Really?

In Matthew 16, Jesus asked His disciple who people thought the son of man was.

He asked Peter, Who do you say that I am?"

Who do you, deeje, say that He is?
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
="Deeje, post: 4562058, member: 18814"]
At Revelation 22:13, the "Alpha and Omega" is also said to be “the first and the last,” which is applied to Jesus at Revelation 1:17, 18. Similarly, the expression “apostle” is applied both to Jesus Christ and to certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person or are of equal rank, does it? (Heb. 3:1)
So the evidence points to the conclusion that the title “Alpha and Omega” applies to Almighty God, the Father, not to the Son.
If I can show you that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, will you publicly admit, on this forum, that you were mistaken?

Let me know.
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
Not only that -- claiming to be over 1800 years old -- but Jesus also said they were "from (their) Father the Devil" (John 8:44) because they were already inclined to kill him. He stated that, twice, in verses 37 and 40.

Question: If Jesus was referring to himself as God, why would he even refer to himself as the Son of man in John 8:28, or John 3:14 or Matthew 26:64, etc.? Did he want to confuse people? It's only confusing when trying to apply the trinity doctrine to explain God. Jesus stated it quite plainly at John 20:17. The God of the Jews (Yahweh) was/is who Jesus worshipped, and still does.
I don't know Jesus' reasons for calling Himself son of man. Like you, I can only speculate. Maybe He wanted to show His humanity.

I do know that Jesus referring to Himself as the son of man does not prove He is not God.

We know from Phil. 2 that Jesus, "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;"

Seems like Apostle Paul thought Jesus was equal to God.

You said Jesus "claimed" to be over 1800 years old. Do you think Jesus lied? Why would Jesus say, "before Abraham was born, I am?"
 
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katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
"Hockeycowboy, post: 4562014, member: 58692"To understand it that way, is bad English. Jesus was only saying He was alive when Abraham lived.

I think it is you who have misunderstood. Jesus didn't say He was alive when Abraham was.

Jesus said, "BEFORE Abraham was born, I am." (emphasis mine)

What do you think Jesus meant by this?

No commentary answers please.
 
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katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
"

Does the identity of God have to be “a very profound mystery”? It did not seem so to Jesus. In his prayer to his Father, Jesus made a clear distinction between him and his Father when he said: “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3) If we believe Jesus and understand the plain teaching of the Bible, we will respect him as the divine Son of God that he is. We will also worship Jehovah as “the only true God.”

We agree Jesus is the divine Son of God.

What exactly does it mean to be the divine Son of God?
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
I see a similarity here.

God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and that if they did eat from it, they would die.

Then along came the serpent saying, "you surely will NOT die."

The serpent was essentially telling Eve that God didn't mean what He said. God didn't say what He really meant.

And now, you moorea, you say that God didn't mean what He said. He didn't say what He meant.

Seems like you and the serpent have much in common.

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." John 8:58

Jesus said what He meant, and meant what He said.

And now, you moorea, you say that God didn't mean what He said. He didn't say what He meant.

Seems like you and the serpent have much in common.
I'm sorry, shouldnt I be saying that to you?........
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
I'm sorry, shouldnt I be saying that to you?........
I'm not the one who said I AM means something other than what it says. You did!

You claim that what Jesus is really saying is that the Gospel and the Messiah was preached before Abraham.

No one would disagree that the gospel was preached before Abraham. Hebrews 4:2 confirms this.

However, Jesus' statement, "before Abraham was born, I am," is not saying the gospel was preached before Abraham. No such thing is mentioned in the verse or its context.

Jesus was not a poor communicator. He said, "before Abraham was born, I am."

Before Abraham was born, "ego eimi" simply means, "before Abraham was born, I exist." Look it up in the Greek for yourself.

Jesus meant what He said, and said what He meant. He existed before Abraham was born.
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
I'm not the one who said I AM means something other than what it says. You did!

You claim that what Jesus is really saying is that the Gospel and the Messiah was preached before Abraham.

No one would disagree that the gospel was preached before Abraham. Hebrews 4:2 confirms this.

However, Jesus' statement, "before Abraham was born, I am," is not saying the gospel was preached before Abraham. No such thing is mentioned in the verse or its context.

Jesus was not a poor communicator. He said, "before Abraham was born, I am."

Before Abraham was born, "ego eimi" simply means, "before Abraham was born, I exist." Look it up in the Greek for yourself.

Jesus meant what He said, and said what He meant. He existed before Abraham was born.

Well, he didnt pre-exist. I think that is the point your having trouble with. "Because" you believe in something that the bible does not teach, your changing the meaning of the words. Did God talk through Jesus before he was born? No, Hebrews tells us that. He spoke through the prophets. I find that alittle strange if Jesus was alive before he was born. How come Mary or prophets were told things like that. That Jesus pre-existed? David wasnt told that in 2 Sam 7. Or Mary in Luke 1. Something to think about, eh?
 

atpollard

Active Member
I don't know Jesus' reasons for calling Himself son of man. Like you, I can only speculate. Maybe He wanted to show His humanity.
I do know that Jesus referring to Himself as the son of man does not prove He is not God.
We know from Phil. 2 that Jesus, "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;"
Seems like Apostle Paul thought Jesus was equal to God.
You said Jesus "claimed" to be over 1800 years old. Do you think Jesus lied? Why would Jesus say, "before Abraham was born, I am?"
I would speculate that a Jewish audience might hear a term like "Son of Man" and recall ...

Daniel 7
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."


If so, then "Son of Man" means "Divine-Messiah". (The 'one like a son of man' in Daniel is worshiped.)
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
I would speculate that a Jewish audience might hear a term like "Son of Man" and recall ...

Daniel 7
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."


If so, then "Son of Man" means "Divine-Messiah". (The 'one like a son of man' in Daniel is worshiped.)
Thank you atpollard. Excellent point!!
 
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