Is Jesus God?

[katiemygirl]

I totally disagree with that one. Why would John call Jesus God and in what chapter and verse?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

Titus 2:13
“looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.”

Upon seeing the resurrected Christ, Thomas cried out, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28).

Hebrews 1:8
“But of the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever"

“the only begotten God” (John 1:18).

 

[katiemygirl]

Jesus always WAS, IS and WILL BE.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever (Hebrews 13:8)

The logos was in the beginning with God. The logos was God. ALL things came into being through Him, and apart from the logos,NOTHING came into being. He (Jesus, the logos who became flesh) is before ALL things.

There was NOTHING before the beginning, but the logos was with God, and the logos WASGOD.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. (John 1:1-3)

16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. (Col. 1:16-17)

 

[katiemygirl]

Jesus has all of the attributes of God.

He knows everything (Matthew 16:21; Luke 11:17; John 4:29),

He is everywhere (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; Acts 18:10),

He has all power (Matthew 8:26–27; 28:18;John 11:38–44; Luke 7:14–15; Revelation 1:8),

He depends on nothing outside of himself for life (John 1:4; 14:6; 8:58),

He is immutable. He never changes. Hebrews 13:8

He rules over everything (Matthew 28:18; Revelation 1:5;19:16

He never began to exist and never will cease to exist (John 1:1; 8:58),

He is our Creator (Colossians 1:16).

In other words, everything that God is, Jesus is. For Jesus is God.

 

[roger1440]

I totally disagree with that one. Why would John call Jesus God and in what chapter and verse?

The Gospel of John has at least eight “I am” sayings. Theses sayings are a direct reference to what God called himself in the book of Exodus. The author of John’s Gospel is pointing his readers back to the story of the Jewish Exodus.

13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
15 God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’
“This is my name forever,
the name you shall call me
from generation to generation. (Exodus 3:13-15)

John 6: 35, 48 I am the bread of life
John 8: 12, 9:5 I am the light of the world
John 8: 58 Before Abraham was, I am
John 10:9 I am the door
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
John 11:25 I am the resurrection and the life
John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life
John 15:1 I am the true vine

According to John’s Gospel the difference between Moses and Jesus is that Moses reveals the divine and Jesus is the divine revealed. Of the four canonical Gospels John’s Gospel is the most complex.

 

[moorea944]

The Gospel of John has at least eight “I am” sayings. Theses sayings are a direct reference to what God called himself in the book of Exodus. The author of John’s Gospel is pointing his readers back to the story of the Jewish Exodus.

13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
15 God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’
“This is my name forever,
the name you shall call me
from generation to generation. (Exodus 3:13-15)

John 6: 35, 48 I am the bread of life
John 8: 12, 9:5 I am the light of the world
John 8: 58 Before Abraham was, I am
John 10:9 I am the door
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
John 11:25 I am the resurrection and the life
John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life
John 15:1 I am the true vine

According to John’s Gospel the difference between Moses and Jesus is that Moses reveals the divine and Jesus is the divine revealed. Of the four canonical Gospels John’s Gospel is the most complex.

So,..... let me get this straight. Because Jesus said "I am' makes him God? Wow......

 

[katiemygirl]

So,..... let me get this straight. Because Jesus said "I
am' makes him God? Wow......

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" Exodus 3:14

"Before Abraham was, I AM." John 8:58

 

[roger1440]

So,..... let me get this straight. Because Jesus said "I am' makes him God? Wow......

According to the gospel of John, yes.

 

[roger1440]

So,..... let me get this straight. Because Jesus said "I am' makes him God? Wow......

I’m not answering for what Jesus said. I’m just answering that was posed in this thread. “Why would John call Jesus God and in what chapter and verse?” I’m answering for is written in the Gospel of John. The “why” is complex.

 

[Joshua Verum]

"MANY people view the Trinity as “the central doctrine of the Christian religion.” According to this teaching, the Father, Son, and holy spirit are three persons in one God. Cardinal John O’Connor stated about the Trinity: “We know that it is a very profound mystery, which we don’t begin to understand.” Why is the Trinity so difficult to understand?

The Illustrated Bible Dictionary gives one reason. Speaking of the Trinity, this publication admits: “It is not a biblical doctrine in the sense that any formulation of it can be found in the Bible.” Because the Trinity is “not a biblical doctrine,” Trinitarians have been desperately looking for Bible texts—even twisting them—to find support for their teaching.

A Text That Teaches the Trinity?
One example of a Bible verse that is often misused is John 1:1. In theKing James Version, that verse reads: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [Greek, ton the·on′], and the Word was God [the·os′].” This verse contains two forms of the Greek noun the·os′(god). The first is preceded by ton (the), a form of the Greek definite article, and in this case the word the·on′ refers to Almighty God. In the second instance, however, the·os′ has no definite article. Was the article mistakenly left out?

Why is the Trinity doctrine so difficult to understand?

The Gospel of John was written in Koine, or common Greek, which has specific rules regarding the use of the definite article. Bible scholar A. T. Robertson recognizes that if both subject and predicate have articles, “both are definite, treated as identical, one and the same, and interchangeable.” Robertson considers as an example Matthew 13:38, which reads: “The field [Greek, ho a·gros′] is the world [Greek, ho ko′smos].” The grammar enables us to understand that the world is also the field.

What, though, if the subject has a definite article but the predicate does not, as in John 1:1? Citing that verse as an example, scholar James Allen Hewett emphasizes: “In such a construction the subject and predicate are not the same, equal, identical, or anything of the sort.”

To illustrate, Hewett uses 1 John 1:5, which says: “God is light.” In Greek, “God” is ho the·os′ and therefore has a definite article. But phosfor “light” is not preceded by any article. Hewett points out: “One can always . . . say of God He is characterized by light; one cannot always say of light that it is God.” Similar examples are found at John 4:24, “God is a Spirit,” and at 1 John 4:16, “God is love.” In both of these verses, the subjects have definite articles but the predicates, “Spirit” and “love,” do not. So the subjects and predicates are not interchangeable. These verses cannot mean that “Spirit is God” or “love is God.”

Identity of “the Word”?
Many Greek scholars and Bible translators acknowledge that John 1:1 highlights, not the identity, but a quality of “the Word.” Says Bible translator William Barclay: “Because [the apostle John] has no definite article in front of theos it becomes a description . . . John is not here identifying the Word with God. To put it very simply, he does not say that Jesus was God.” Scholar Jason David BeDuhn likewise says: “In Greek, if you leave off the article from theos in a sentence like the one in John 1:1c, then your readers will assume you mean ‘a god.’ . . . Its absence makes theos quite different than the definite ho theos, as different as ‘a god’ is from ‘God’ in English.” BeDuhn adds: “In John 1:1, the Word is not the one-and-only God, but is a god, or divine being.” Or to put it in the words of Joseph Henry Thayer, a scholar who worked on theAmerican Standard Version: “The Logos [or, Word] was divine, not the divine Being himself.”

Jesus made a clear distinction between him and his Father

Does the identity of God have to be “a very profound mystery”? It did not seem so to Jesus. In his prayer to his Father, Jesus made a clear distinction between him and his Father when he said: “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3) If we believe Jesus and understand the plain teaching of the Bible, we will respect him as the divine Son of God that he is. We will also worship Jehovah as “the only true God.”

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The Gospel of John has at least eight “I am” sayings. Theses sayings are a direct reference to what God called himself in the book of Exodus. The author of John’s Gospel is pointing his readers back to the story of the Jewish Exodus.

13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
15 God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The Lord, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’
“This is my name forever,
the name you shall call me
from generation to generation. (Exodus 3:13-15)

John 6: 35, 48 I am the bread of life
John 8: 12, 9:5 I am the light of the world
John 8: 58 Before Abraham was, I am
John 10:9 I am the door
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
John 11:25 I am the resurrection and the life
John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life
John 15:1 I am the true vine

According to John’s Gospel the difference between Moses and Jesus is that Moses reveals the divine and Jesus is the divine revealed. Of the four canonical Gospels John’s Gospel is the most complex.

Nice rebuttal.

Do you mind seeing if my logic is wrong in this and by scripture, why (real quick)?

No debate but you made me think of changing how I view Christ.

Please read in context; if I may?

Pretend (same people; same role)

The scene is set in the US. The Creator knows what goes on in the US. He sees all the people going amock. He sent each of his children during different time periods to the US so they can tell him children what their The Creator (their Father) says: basically, "if you do not stop, you suffer the consequences" in so many words.

However, after awhile, US citizens went amock again, murdering, and all the nine yards.

The Creator has an idea.

He creates a human Child into the world for this Child to barry the Creator's message to the citizens. This human child isn't just any human child.

He is the visible representation or image of an invisible Creator

As a special human, he speaks for his father. Whatever Jesus, the Son, says is what that the Father says. The two messages cannot be separated. So Jesus says:

(Remember, Jesus the human is only saying the words. When people here it, they are hearing it from Christ but these are the words from His Father "These words are not my own" he says.)

John 6: 35, 48 I am the bread of life
John 8: 12, 9:5 I am the light of the world
John 8: 58 Before Abraham was, I am
John 10:9 I am the door
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
John 11:25 I am the resurrection and the life
John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life
John 15:1 I am the true vine

Christ is allowed to say this. He is allowed to be the I AM because he was chosen and blessed by his father to be a barrier of His father's word. He came from the Father, gave his message for His Father, die for everyone as His Father told Him, and resurrected and went back to His Father.

Each person has a spirit. Why can't Christians understand that the Creator has the ability to create a human (a visible image) of himself?

What is wrong with being human if the Creator is specifically telling this human who he gave FULL authority of himself even to let Him call himself, I AM (which they could not do in the OT) that he, Jesus, is NOT the Creator but the representation (the envoy) of Him?

Does it somehow void Jesus' perfection or something and make Jesus less of a Savior to call him a human to which the Creator made perfect?

Why can't Christians understand Christ is speaking for his Father?

If my mother passed away, and I can only talk to her in spirit, and my sister who I havent seen in years comes back to where I live to mymother's funeral, and listens to me read the will....

I am representing my mother to tell her and the rest of the folks what my mother wanted me to say.

I am not my mother. We have the same features. Sometimes we have hte same personality. We are not each other. No matter how much about her I share and read f rom her will. I would even die for her if she told me in spirit to... because her spirit talks to me from within. If I did this, died, and went up to her in heaven, we would both be there. I wouldnt just go into her and we be one person.

I hoenstly don't know why some Christians don't understand this.


Sorry this is so long. I just cant understand why this is wrong to see Christ as a human.

 

[roger1440]

Nice rebuttal.

Do you mind seeing if my logic is wrong in this and by scripture, why (real quick)?

No debate but you made me think of changing how I view Christ.

Please read in context; if I may?

Pretend (same people; same role)

The scene is set in the US. The Creator knows what goes on in the US. He sees all the people going amock. He sent each of his children during different time periods to the US so they can tell him children what their The Creator (their Father) says: basically, "if you do not stop, you suffer the consequences" in so many words.

However, after awhile, US citizens went amock again, murdering, and all the nine yards.

The Creator has an idea.

He creates a human Child into the world for this Child to barry the Creator's message to the citizens. This human child isn't just any human child.

He is the visible representation or image of an invisible Creator

As a special human, he speaks for his father. Whatever Jesus, the Son, says is what that the Father says. The two messages cannot be separated. So Jesus says:

(Remember, Jesus the human is only saying the words. When people here it, they are hearing it from Christ but these are the words from His Father "These words are not my own" he says.)

John 6: 35, 48 I am the bread of life
John 8: 12, 9:5 I am the light of the world
John 8: 58 Before Abraham was, I am
John 10:9 I am the door
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd
John 11:25 I am the resurrection and the life
John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life
John 15:1 I am the true vine

Christ is allowed to say this. He is allowed to be the I AM because he was chosen and blessed by his father to be a barrier of His father's word. He came from the Father, gave his message for His Father, die for everyone as His Father told Him, and resurrected and went back to His Father.

Each person has a spirit. Why can't Christians understand that the Creator has the ability to create a human (a visible image) of himself?

What is wrong with being human if the Creator is specifically telling this human who he gave FULL authority of himself even to let Him call himself, I AM (which they could not do in the OT) that he, Jesus, is NOT the Creator but the representation (the envoy) of Him?

Does it somehow void Jesus' perfection or something and make Jesus less of a Savior to call him a human to which the Creator made perfect?

Why can't Christians understand Christ is speaking for his Father?

If my mother passed away, and I can only talk to her in spirit, and my sister who I havent seen in years comes back to where I live to mymother's funeral, and listens to me read the will....

I am representing my mother to tell her and the rest of the folks what my mother wanted me to say.

I am not my mother. We have the same features. Sometimes we have hte same personality. We are not each other. No matter how much about her I share and read f rom her will. I would even die for her if she told me in spirit to... because her spirit talks to me from within. If I did this, died, and went up to her in heaven, we would both be there. I wouldnt just go into her and we be one person.

I hoenstly don't know why some Christians don't understand this.


Sorry this is so long. I just cant understand why this is wrong to see Christ as a human.

The Gospels are allegory.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The Gospels are allegory.

Your quotes aren't analagies, though. Being analogies actually makes it more simple for me. If the Father and Christ are one in analogy, literally, they'd be separate. Jesus being the visible image of an invisible Creator, makes sense as analogy. If it's literal, it would be Jesus is the Creator in flesh. (not image nor representation)

 

[roger1440]

In John’s Gospel why the palm branches when Jesus enters Jerusalem? Palm branches have nothing to do with Passover.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@russ0692 How can "Jesus is God" Christians confirm that he is the Creator when they go off of analagies.

That is like my looking at my sister reading the Will and confirming "she is my mother" and someone asks "how" and I say "I go by analogies; so she is"

but then someone else says "why are you making truth in analogies. Go beyond that and see the literal truth. She is representing her mother. She doesn't have to say it for it to be true. Just by her statements and actions; just by the Will itself, shows she is ot her mother.

Why look at analogies when the actions and words are right there to show otherwise?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

One day. One day.

 

[Drew Easton]

Jesus is God. Jesus is not the Father. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit.

The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. The Holy Spirit is not the Father. The Father is not the Holy Spirit.

 

[moorea944]

"MANY people view the Trinity as “the central doctrine of the Christian religion.” According to this teaching, the Father, Son, and holy spirit are three persons in one God. Cardinal John O’Connor stated about the Trinity: “We know that it is a very profound mystery, which we don’t begin to understand.” Why is the Trinity so difficult to understand?

The Illustrated Bible Dictionary gives one reason. Speaking of the Trinity, this publication admits: “It is not a biblical doctrine in the sense that any formulation of it can be found in the Bible.” Because the Trinity is “not a biblical doctrine,” Trinitarians have been desperately looking for Bible texts—even twisting them—to find support for their teaching.

A Text That Teaches the Trinity?
One example of a Bible verse that is often misused is John 1:1. In theKing James Version, that verse reads: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [Greek, ton the·on′], and the Word was God [the·os′].” This verse contains two forms of the Greek noun the·os′(god). The first is preceded by ton (the), a form of the Greek definite article, and in this case the word the·on′ refers to Almighty God. In the second instance, however, the·os′ has no definite article. Was the article mistakenly left out?

Why is the Trinity doctrine so difficult to understand?

The Gospel of John was written in Koine, or common Greek, which has specific rules regarding the use of the definite article. Bible scholar A. T. Robertson recognizes that if both subject and predicate have articles, “both are definite, treated as identical, one and the same, and interchangeable.” Robertson considers as an example Matthew 13:38, which reads: “The field [Greek, ho a·gros′] is the world [Greek, ho ko′smos].” The grammar enables us to understand that the world is also the field.

What, though, if the subject has a definite article but the predicate does not, as in John 1:1? Citing that verse as an example, scholar James Allen Hewett emphasizes: “In such a construction the subject and predicate are not the same, equal, identical, or anything of the sort.”

To illustrate, Hewett uses 1 John 1:5, which says: “God is light.” In Greek, “God” is ho the·os′ and therefore has a definite article. But phosfor “light” is not preceded by any article. Hewett points out: “One can always . . . say of God He is characterized by light; one cannot always say of light that it is God.” Similar examples are found at John 4:24, “God is a Spirit,” and at 1 John 4:16, “God is love.” In both of these verses, the subjects have definite articles but the predicates, “Spirit” and “love,” do not. So the subjects and predicates are not interchangeable. These verses cannot mean that “Spirit is God” or “love is God.”

Identity of “the Word”?
Many Greek scholars and Bible translators acknowledge that John 1:1 highlights, not the identity, but a quality of “the Word.” Says Bible translator William Barclay: “Because [the apostle John] has no definite article in front of theos it becomes a description . . . John is not here identifying the Word with God. To put it very simply, he does not say that Jesus was God.” Scholar Jason David BeDuhn likewise says: “In Greek, if you leave off the article from theos in a sentence like the one in John 1:1c, then your readers will assume you mean ‘a god.’ . . . Its absence makes theos quite different than the definite ho theos, as different as ‘a god’ is from ‘God’ in English.” BeDuhn adds: “In John 1:1, the Word is not the one-and-only God, but is a god, or divine being.” Or to put it in the words of Joseph Henry Thayer, a scholar who worked on theAmerican Standard Version: “The Logos [or, Word] was divine, not the divine Being himself.”

Jesus made a clear distinction between him and his Father

Does the identity of God have to be “a very profound mystery”? It did not seem so to Jesus. In his prayer to his Father, Jesus made a clear distinction between him and his Father when he said: “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3) If we believe Jesus and understand the plain teaching of the Bible, we will respect him as the divine Son of God that he is. We will also worship Jehovah as “the only true God.”

Does the identity of God have to be “a very profound mystery”?

And that's the problem of the trinity. It's a mystery. But, scripture tells us that it has been revealed to the saints. So it shouldnt be a mystery. God is one, why does it "now" have to be three? All of their verses are taken out of context to fit their beliefs.

 

[moorea944]

According to the gospel of John, yes.

Actually, he's not. But because of your beliefs, it is. No one in scripture believed in a trinitarian God or Jesus was their God or an actual God. Dont you "also" read verses that tell us that Jesus is the "son" of God? And he was flesh like us? Same nature?

 

[roger1440]

Actually, he's not. But because of your beliefs, it is. No one in scripture believed in a trinitarian God or Jesus was their God or an actual God. Dont you "also" read verses that tell us that Jesus is the "son" of God? And he was flesh like us? Same nature?

Ok, I'll bite. What did John's Gospel mean with all those " I am" sayings?

 

[moorea944]

Ok, I'll bite. What did John's Gospel mean with all those " I am" sayings?

Well, I can tell you this, he's not saying that he's God, his Father, that is for sure. Why would you even think that Jesus is the Father? There is only one father. So, if Jesus is not God, then what would mean. Before Abraham was, I am. What would that mean? Jesus is saying that the Gospel and the Messiah was preached before Abraham, and it was. Right from the beginning. People knew about a coming Messiah and about the coming kingdom that would be here someday. Jesus did not pre-exist.

There are no other Gods beside our God. You say that is wrong and that there is other Gods. God the son and God the Holy Spirit. Both... are not even mentioned in the bible. I can do more if you want.