outhouse
Atheistically
Sorry.
Every last one is mythology, and never took place or existed, and no one or no university teaches anything different then what I m telling you.
It has no academic credibility at all.
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Is Jesus God?
- Thread starter Orbit
- Start date
Sorry.
Every last one is mythology, and never took place or existed, and no one or no university teaches anything different then what I m telling you.
It has no academic credibility at all.
outhouse
Atheistically
No there is not.
It is a factual myth.
Israelites evolved for the most part from displaced Canaanites after 1200 BC. To the point of certainty, that it is not up for debate. ONLY your refusal which is fine.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
If you say so. But my belief is in the living word of my Creator. But no problem..... Have a happy Holiday!!
i am sorry, but why do you highlight "I am"? Egō eimi is simply a phrase regarding existence, as at John 9:9. Implying something more, is adding to the text.
Are you sure that even makes sense?
He said "Unless you believe that I exist, you will die in your sins."?
That sounds pretty existential and egomaniacal.
"Unless you believe that I am (God or Messiah), you will die in your sins." fits better with other verses and is merely blasphemy (if untrue) rather than pure insanity (like condemnation for doubting the existence of the person speaking to you).
You are correct linguistically (as far as my limited ability to confirm Greek), but seem off contextually.
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moorea944
Well-Known Member
Well, we know that Jesus isnt saying that he is God, that doesnt even make sense, he would never do that. There is already "one" God. And since Jesus is NOT God, it makes sense that he would be saying that he is the Messiah. He could also be telling people if they believe in him. But who really knows exactly what he was thinking. We'll know when he returns to earth to set up the kingdom of God.
outhouse
Atheistically
Agreed, but the text can imply both, but yes logic and reason would show an Aramaic Galilean Jew would not claim himself god.
I believe he was deified after his death IMHO
Even Ehrman debates this right now in his blog. Its not really settled in any way.
I honestly don't think he viewed himself as a messiah, but it is my own personal view.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
“Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58).
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Jesus always WAS, IS and WILL BE.
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever (Hebrews 13:8)
The logos was in the beginning with God. The logos was God. ALL things came into being through Him, and apart from the logos, NOTHING came into being. He (Jesus, the logos who became flesh) is before ALL things.
There was NOTHING before the beginning, but the logos was with God, and the logos WAS GOD.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. (John 1:1-3)
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. (Col. 1:16-17)
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever (Hebrews 13:8)
The logos was in the beginning with God. The logos was God. ALL things came into being through Him, and apart from the logos, NOTHING came into being. He (Jesus, the logos who became flesh) is before ALL things.
There was NOTHING before the beginning, but the logos was with God, and the logos WAS GOD.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. (John 1:1-3)
16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. (Col. 1:16-17)
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever (Hebrews 13:8)
Why is Jesus Christ changeless?
Because he is God!
Changelessness is an attribute of deity. God said, "For I, Jehovah, change not" (Malachi 3:5).
Why is Jesus Christ changeless?
Because he is God!
Changelessness is an attribute of deity. God said, "For I, Jehovah, change not" (Malachi 3:5).
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
It is also said that God knew us way before we were born. Does that make us God? Just something to think about....
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
I don't need to think about it. I am not God, and neither are you.
Three times, John in chapter 1 uses the imperfect tense verb en (was).
“In the beginning was [en] the Word and the Word was [en] with God, and the Word was [en] God.”
The imperfect tense here denotes “timeless existence.” (Bernard p. 2)
Noted Greek scholar A.T. Robertson observed that John’s use of the imperfect form “conveys no idea of origin” for God or for Christ; rather, it reflects “continuous existence” for both of these divine beings (p. 3).
Do your research if you are interested in learning the truth. Bible Hub is a good place to start. Do a Greek text analysis of John 1:1 so you can see for yourself.
Jesus always was, is, and always will be!
The Word was God.
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A fine hair to split, but even if Jesus would never claim that he was God ... Clearly the author (let's call him John) was quite capable of both believing that Jesus was God and saying so.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
I totally disagree with that one. Why would John call Jesus God and in what chapter and verse?
Intojoy
Member
Yes
THE MEANING OF KENOSIS
By A Fruchtenbaum
In dealing with the deity of the Messiah, Philippians 2:5-11 should be discussed. This passage deals with something theologians call “kenosis.” This term is used because the Greek word that is found in one of these verses is a word from which kenosis originates. It is a word that means “to empty oneself,” “to empty,” or “to evacuate.” Some kind of “emptying” took place at the time that the Son became incarnate. Some have taught that what Yeshua emptied Himself of, what He gave up when He became a man, was being God. If it were possible for someone to give up being God, then that person was not God to begin with. Does this passage teach that Jesus gave up His deity while He was on earth, so that He wasn't God? Or is it trying to teach something else? These questions can be answered by a study of the text.
In this passage, verse 5 is a transitional statement between what was being said in verses 1-4 and what is about to be said in verses 6-11. Verse 5 reads: Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus. This is in the present tense, and Paul is saying, “Keep on minding” and “Keep on having the mind of the Messiah.” The Messiah is to be imitated in the sense that there should be a habitual, daily direction of the mind to the distinctive virtue of the likeness of the Messiah.
The first part of verse 6 emphasizes His pre existence when it says: who, existing in the form of God. The way He has always existed in eternity past is in the form of God. This has been a continous, eternal existence. Yeshua has had a previous existence in the form of God before He became a man. To exist in the form of God means to be God Himself.
Indeed, in the second part of verse 6, His deity is clearly taught: counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped. While the first part of verse 6 teaches the pre existence of Jesus, the second part of the verse teaches His equality with God. He was existing in a form that naturally means being an equal with God. To be an equal with God means to be God. The mind of the Messiah was exercised in such a way that He did not consider His exalted God equal existence a warrant for seizing and grasping the glory for Himself; the glory that comes with the fact of being God. In other words, He did not count equality with God as something to be used selfishly for His own enrichment. He was willing to exist in another form other than the form of God.
What that form was is brought out in verse 7, where the Incarnation of the Messiah is taught: but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men. There are two things to notice in this verse. First, what this verse does not say concerning the act of self emptying. The Messiah did not empty Himself of the form of God, nor did He exchange the form of God for the likeness of men. The concept is not “to give up,” rather, it is “to add to.” The statement of the Greek text emptied himself is in itself an incomplete thought. What follows next in the sentence is describing the nature of His Humiliation in that He took upon Himself the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men. The form of a servant was not an exchange of the form of God, not an exchange of being equal with God, but in addition to. The picture is that He added to His divine form; He took upon Himself the addition of humanity.
Secondly, what did He empty Himself of, then, if He did not empty Himself of the form of God or equality with God? The answer is that He emptied Himself of the right to have the independent use of those ten divine attributes that were discussed earlier in this manuscript. As God, He had the perfect right to independently use those attributes, but He would no longer use them except in accordance with the will of God the Father.
That is why the writer says that He not only took upon Himself the likeness of men, but specifically He took upon Himself the form of a servant, the servant role. Of course, a servant means someone who has a lord whom he obeys. That is the picture of what He emptied Himself; He emptied Himself of the independent right to use His divine attributes. He now became an earthly servant of God the Father. He would use His attributes only in accordance with the will of God the Father. He would not use His omnipotence unless God the Father willed it. He would not use His omniscience unless God the Father willed it. Consequently , there were things Jesus did not know in His humanity. For example, He did not know when He was coming back. The reason He did not know this is because He did not use the attribute of omniscience; it was not God the Father's will for Him to do so. When Yeshua became a man, He did not become less than God. Rather, by becoming a man, He took on humanity in addition to His divinity.
Verse 8 describes His Crucifixion: and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross. The condition of Jesus beheld by man is: in fashion as a man. When humankind saw Yeshua, they did not see Him in a divine essence; they saw Him as a human being. He was recognized by all to be a man. This was part of His Humiliation, part of His obedience to God the Father. He emptied Himself of His omnipotence in that He did not use His omnipotence to keep people from putting Him to death. Because the Son was willing to give up existing only in the form of God–not in exchange of existing in the form of God, but in addition to that form–He took on the form of a man.
Because He was willing to empty Himself in that way, there is a promise of His Exaltation in verses 9-11: Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. As a result, He was exalted when He ascended into Heaven. In verse 9, He was raised from the dead to unusual dignity and power. In verse 10, there is the recognition of His universal sovereignty. And in verse 11, there will eventually be universal homage to the Messiah as Lord. What does the kenosis mean? First, it does not mean that He divested Himself of the form of deity. Secondly, it does mean that He laid aside the independent exercise of His divine attributes by which the form of God expresses itself. Instead, He took on and assumed human form, flesh, and nature by means of the Incarnation and the Virgin Birth. The self emptying brought about a change of status from the position of God to the position of a servant. In the exchange, He did not divest Himself of or give up His deity. In His human form, He retained all the attributes of His deity, but He never manifested His deity apart from the will of the Father. Thus, even in His earthly sojourn as a man, He was still God.
No point in going there.
If you can read John chapter 1 and not see it, then there is no point wasting both our time retreading old territory.
Orthodox Christianity has read that interpretation of John for as long as there has been a church.
I bet we have both heard all of the arguments for both sides.
(Have you seen any of the posts by 'katiemygirl' who is willing to fight that fight?)
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moorea944
Well-Known Member
I think what your doing is that your making the word "Word" totally Jesus and nothing else. That's not good. And because of that, your making Jesus God Himself.
"In the beginning was the "logos". Logos is someone's thoughts, reasons and plans. It is God's word. His spoken word too. And God said.... That was in the beginning with God and the "logos" is God. That that is absolutely true. The word IS God. But it's not talking about Jesus at 100%. Jesus was in God's plans right from the beginning, yes. But Jesus himself, was not with God at the beginning. He wasnt born yet. IT's easy to understand what the word logos means too. And we have to remember that the translators capitalize the "W" in the word "Word". There are no caps or commas in Greek or Hebrew.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
Well, let me ask you this then..... how can YOU see that esp, if you read the whole chapter.No point in going there.
If you can read John chapter 1 and not see it, then there is no point wasting both our time retreading old territory.
Orthodox Christianity has read that interpretation of John for as long as there has been a church.
I bet we have both heard all of the arguments for both sides.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
These scholars may have overlooked or ignored the fact that grammar rule applies to all verbs "except" the verb form "to be", which is the case in Joh 1:1:
"The imperfect tense generally represents continual or repeated action. Where the present tense might indicate "they are asking, " the imperfect would indicate "they kept on asking." In the case of the verb "to be, " however, the imperfect tense is used as a general past tense and does not carry the connotation of continual or repeated action." Source: Strongs, Tense, Voice, Mood Dictionary; The Imperfect Tense
“The imperfect tense shows continuous or linear type of action just like the present tense. It always indicates an action continually or repeatedly happening in past time. It portrays the action as going on for some extended period of time in the past. The idea of continual action in the past does not apply when the verb "to be" is in the imperfect tense. There it should be considered a simple action happening in past time, without regard to its "on-going" or "repeated happening" in the past.”source
“The imperfect tense shows continuous or linear type of action just like the present tense. It always indicates an action continually or repeatedly happening in past time. It portrays the action as going on for some extended period of time in the past. The idea of continual action in the past does not apply when the verb "to be" is in the imperfect tense. There it should be considered a simple action happening in past time, without regard to its "on-going" or "repeated happening" in the past.”source
Verbs in ancient Greek must take “time and aspect” into consideration before accurately applying a tense. In Joh 1:1, the verb "was" [en] is the past tense in “time” of the verb "to be" so according to the rule, the repeated action or "continual past existence" of the imperfect “aspect” does not apply.
Very good advice to follow..
From the Southern Baptist Faith and Message:
B. God the Son
Christ is the eternal Son of God. In His incarnation as Jesus Christ He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. Jesus perfectly revealed and did the will of God, taking upon Himself human nature with its demands and necessities and identifying Himself completely with mankind yet without sin. He honored the divine law by His personal obedience, and in His substitutionary death on the cross He made provision for the redemption of men from sin. He was raised from the dead with a glorified body and appeared to His disciples as the person who was with them before His crucifixion. He ascended into heaven and is now exalted at the right hand of God where He is the One Mediator, fully God, fully man, in whose Person is effected the reconciliation between God and man. He will return in power and glory to judge the world and to consummate His redemptive mission. He now dwells in all believers as the living and ever present Lord.
Genesis 18:1ff.; Psalms 2:7ff.; 110:1ff.; Isaiah 7:14; Isaiah 53:1-12; Matthew 1:18-23; 3:17; 8:29; 11:27; 14:33; 16:16,27; 17:5; 27; 28:1-6,19; Mark 1:1; 3:11; Luke 1:35; 4:41; 22:70; 24:46; John 1:1-18,29; 10:30,38; 11:25-27; 12:44-50; 14:7-11; 16:15-16,28; 17:1-5, 21-22; 20:1-20,28; Acts 1:9; 2:22-24; 7:55-56; 9:4-5,20; Romans 1:3-4; 3:23-26; 5:6-21; 8:1-3,34; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2:2; 8:6; 15:1-8,24-28; 2 Corinthians 5:19-21; 8:9; Galatians 4:4-5; Ephesians 1:20; 3:11; 4:7-10; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:13-22; 2:9; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Timothy 2:5-6; 3:16; Titus 2:13-14; Hebrews 1:1-3; 4:14-15; 7:14-28; 9:12-15,24-28; 12:2; 13:8; 1 Peter 2:21-25; 3:22; 1 John 1:7-9; 3:2; 4:14-15; 5:9; 2 John 7-9; Revelation 1:13-16; 5:9-14; 12:10-11; 13:8; 19:16.
I find it easier to accept the harmony of the whole rather than learn enough Greek to re-translate all those verses to say something else and still be in harmony.
John 1 ...
Word = God.
Jesus = Word (The Word became flesh.)
Jesus = God.
Elsewhere ...
Only God forgives sin.
Jesus forgives sin.
Jesus is God.
That's the general pattern if you bother to read all of those references.
Eh, it works for me better than splitting hairs over first created 'God-like' thing that created everything else.
Obviously, others disagree.
My question for you is what can possibly be gained by you and I retreading this well worn debate one more time?
Is there any real chance that you have unanswered questions and I will change your mind by explaining it ONE MORE TIME.
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