Is Jesus God?

[Fool]

False.

A spirit is considered mythology.

mythology doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't true at the time. it simply means that it is a story of something understood in the past.

you have a problem with language being inconsistent across time. mythology and language are designed to convey an idea/concept across time. the characters/personalities are irrelevant.

every culture has it's mythos. ideas are eternal but the language changes across time and space. the characters may change but the over all actions play out over time. the more the personalities change the more the actions remain the same.

the books of the bible are written as poetry or song. they are like a rorschach test. they something about the observer.

 

[james2ko]

As a mouthpiece for God I believe I can say that you are absolutely wrong about this and too stubborn to admit it.

Wait a sec. I exposed your error of a non existent figure of speech in the verse and you have the nerve to say I am absolutely wrong about the verse???

If you followed my conversation with moorea, I am not dogmatic about my interpretation of Isa 43:10 . The problem is no one has offerred an alternative explanation on the meaning behind the grammar of the verb "formed" .

They have only offerred an interpretation of the entire verse. But as I have pointed out to you and others, the common interpretations are inconsistent with the grammar behind the verb and its relation to the singular subject.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Not only is this possible, but true. Jesus was a sinless, pure hearted, truthful servant of God. He was a man that didn't sin, not possible for any man that is just man, for we are all born under sin, but quite possible for man who is also God.

Jesus is claimed to be sinless, which is different than showing that he is.

He dishonors his parents.
If you think he claimed to be God, he committed idolatry.
He broke the Sabbath.
He vandalized people's stuff, which is practically stealing.
He has to be convinced of gentile faith, which shows he is a bigot.
He gives us morals and when it comes to charity, uses magic to do it instead of sacrificing anything he earned, so he is a hypocrite.
He says to keep your faith on the DL and yet makes public spectacles of himself (hypocrite).
He says if you tell someone they are fools you are going to hell and then calls Pharisees foolish (say hi to Satan, Jesus!).

Either the claim of sinlessness was invented later or the authors are really, REALLY bad at consistent writing skills.

Also, the entire point of Job is that God smites a man who HAD DONE NOTHING WRONG....

No problem if in fact you are God.

How does he teach the apostles to exorcise? How are there exorcists now? None of these people are God and yet claim to do the same.

Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. John 5:19

God can end famines. Did Jesus? Jesus fed a few thousand at one of his many public spectacles, but did he ever change the infrastructure so that the poor could eat even after he left town? No?

Indeed, Jesus bears the sins of the world and we are redeemed through the blood of Jesus, but this does not make Jesus a sinful man.

I think I get it now: Jesus offered to take on the sins of the world (actually, he begs God to stop this, but...), but because sacrifices require actual sin, not virtual sin, he pops back up after 3 days because it didn't take and that's why we all still have to repent or go to hell even now.

I am not sure how you are interpreting this verse. I see this as Jesus bearing and taking away our sins the first time (upon the cross), but this is not necessary at his second coming, because the work has already been done.

If it worked the first time, there's no reason to return.

"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

When did this happen, though? He was never a government.

And the nicknames mean essentially nothing, as anyone in the bible with "el" attached to it meant "something something God". It didn't MAKE them God.

 

[firedragon]

If the book of Isaiah were just the writings and workings of Isaiah, then it should be thrown out, as Isaiah was a man of unclean lips:

"So I said: "Woe is me, for I am undone! because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts"" Isaiah 6:5​

Also, we wouldn't follow Moses because he was a murderer.

All the prophets were sinners and in need of redemption.



Not only is this possible, but true. Jesus was a sinless, pure hearted, truthful servant of God. He was a man that didn't sin, not possible for any man that is just man, for we are all born under sin, but quite possible for man who is also God.

The main Scripture to understand on this topic is Romans 5:12: “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned”



No problem if in fact you are God.



Jesus came here as our example, to die for our sins and show us how to follow God. So of course he would not strike out on his own, or do things his own way. He would only do what he saw his Father doing, and only walk in His ways.

Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. John 5:19​

Jesus also states he sees his Father doing things, which is quite a statement considering that no man has seen the Father and live (Exodus 33:20)

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. (John 1:18)​

Actually, he asked "Why do you call me good?...." rather than "Don't call me good...." If he had stated "don't call me good" I would agree with you:

`o de IhsouV eipen autw, Ti me legeiV agaqon; oudeiV agaqoV ei mh`eiV`o qeoV

hO DE IÊSOUS EIPEN AUTÔ, TI ME LEGEIS AGATHON; OUDEIS AGATHOS EI ME hEIS hO THEOS

But Jesus said to him, "Why call me good; not one is good save one, God.​

Nor does Jesus say only the Father is good, but he does says only God is good, and since Jesus is God the conclusion he is drawing the young man to becomes obvious. In other words, "If only God is good, by calling me good do you realize what it is you're saying?" Nowhere in scripture is Jesus stated not to be good. If he was no good, or just had a few blemishes "here and there" he couldn't die for our sins.



All men sin, and all men require repentance because of sin. Romans 3:23

Moses was no murderer. If you consider them murders, it was God who did it. Moses was powerless as any prophet was, it was Gods will. In that case it was Gpd who was a murderer and if you believe Jesus is God, it was him.

You cant say fleeting statements that all prophets were sinners. Personally I dont believe the bible to be accurate narrations. You seem to be knowledgeable in the bible, them you would know that the book names Torah in the bible was written at least by four different schools of thought. Thus, you cannot trust them as infallible. And if you believe in the bible then the prophets were not only sinners, good God they were abominations. They commit incest, sleep with prostitutes, do the most malicious acts known to man. And if Jesus is God, he has picked some of the dirtiest people to be his emissaries. And he has commanded people to eat cow shi(t and walk naked.

I certainly dont believe it was God who did them, because they are plain stupid and God nor Jesus would not approve of these acts. And I understand that there could be many verses in the NT books to give Godship to Jesus while giving evidence to the sinful nature of man. But they contradict the words of Jesus. Jesus never spoke them, and Paul works against the teachings of Jesus, in the book itself.

If you are God, why would you need to say I of myself can do nothing?

"Jesus gave them this answer: "Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. John 5:19"

Since you know Greek as well I am happy. Then also you must analyse this verse. It says Gar An, for likely. Which means likely what God would do. And Poiee or what God might do. Jesus does what God would likely might do. There is a bit of a misinterpretation there. It does not explicitly say that Jesus is God. Even in the most evolved Gospel, John. And when you say see, it doesnt mean physically see with your own eyes. In Greek or in many other languages when you say "I see" it doesnt always mean with your eyes. Its an understanding. Mata penawa. Enakku Vilannguthu or in Greek, 'blepee'.

No one can see God and live does not apply. If you quote the old testament you must also agree that God does not beget children, as in physically beget children.

Jesus says, I ascend towards my father and your father, my God and your God in John 20:17 (words might differ. I cant remember exactly). Patera Mou, Patera Humuon, Theon mou kai theou Humuon.

I understand the theology of Jesus's divinity, but not the literary validity.

When one person says "Why do you call me good. No one is good except God" he is basically saying dont call me good. Cmon bro. Thats to me, an absurd thing to say that Jesus didnt say dont, but was asking a question why, so that doesnt mean Jesus is human.

And though you said Jesus did not say "Only God is Good", he says "oudeis agathos" or no one is good, then says "if not one, the God". And I didnt mean to say that Jesus not Good, lol.

The arguments are very vague, even in the Gospel of John. Being an evolved book in terms of the divinity of christ, it still lacks conviction to prove with no doubt at all that Jesus is God. There should be statements made by Jesus himself simply saying "i am God" like when God says "I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. ‘You shall have no other gods before Me. (Deuteronomy 5:6-7)"

 

[outhouse]

the books of the bible are written as poetry or song. they are like a rorschach test. they something about the observer.

That's not even close to correct.

They were rhetorical prose first and foremost.

The NT included pseudohistorical accounts compiled from many previous traditions plagiarized from the OT.

The OT also written in rhetorical prose, contained many different methods that evolved into its current form that contained song, fiction, mythology, non fiction, history, pseudohistory, allegory, metaphor and a long list of other literary means.


And without an education on this topic most are blind, SO do not assume everyone has a limited grasp of these ancient text.

 

[Oeste]

Jesus is claimed to be sinless, which is different than showing that he is.

He dishonors his parents.

How? By obeying his Father?

If you think he claimed to be God, he committed idolatry.

When God says he’s God it’s idolatry?

He broke the Sabbath.

Aaah…so man was made for the Sabbath rather than the other way around?

He vandalized people's stuff, which is practically stealing.

So when a father tasks his son with kicking out the bookies and meth lab that have taken up shop in his apartment complex, you call this vandalism? Wouldn't the residents call it a thorough cleaning??

He has to be convinced of gentile faith, which shows he is a bigot.

But when the Jews were asked to demonstrate their faith He was not?

He gives us morals and when it comes to charity, uses magic to do it instead of sacrificing anything he earned, so he is a hypocrite.

So the people volunteering at the local pantry are hypocrites because they’re distributing food donated by others rather than food they themselves actually earned?

Or are you saying God is a hypocrite because He gave us wheat to grow, but no angels to till the fields?

He says to keep your faith on the DL and yet makes public spectacles of himself (hypocrite).

Like when he prayed for us on the cross?

He says if you tell someone they are fools you are going to hell and then calls Pharisees foolish (say hi to Satan, Jesus!).

Thanks Kelly! Only if Jesus were God could he judge someone foolish. You got me there.

Either the claim of sinlessness was invented later or the authors are really, REALLY bad at consistent writing skills.

C'mon Kelly, this is filler! You're an intelligent person, we've had plenty of discussions on another forum, and I don't recall us wasting much time presenting false dichotomies.

Also, the entire point of Job is that God smites a man who HAD DONE NOTHING WRONG....

I seem to recall it was Satan who did the actual smiting. Has he become God?

How does he teach the apostles to exorcise? How are there exorcists now? None of these people are God and yet claim to do the same.

God can end famines. Did Jesus? Jesus fed a few thousand at one of his many public spectacles, but did he ever change the infrastructure so that the poor could eat even after he left town? No?

Yes! If we read the Old Testament, we find that he started and ended quite a few famines, but on the whole, the people of Israel dictated which one they got.

I think I get it now: Jesus offered to take on the sins of the world (actually, he begs God to stop this, but...), but because sacrifices require actual sin, not virtual sin, he pops back up after 3 days because it didn't take and that's why we all still have to repent or go to hell even now.

If it didn't take he wouldn't have popped back up. He would have stayed dead.

"For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."​

When did this happen, though? He was never a government.

The question is not "When did", but "When will" the government be upon His shoulders. I don't have the answer for that, but let me assure you: there are plenty of people on this forum and knocking on your door ready to tell you they do.

 

[Yoshua]

God was in Jesus is what that means. That does not mean that Jesus was God Himself (John 14:28:)

John 14:28
English Standard Version (ESV)
(28)You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Hi New,

Did you know that during their time, they are very cautious and careful to call someone "God'? this is the reason why they stoned Jesus when He claimed He is one with the the Father.

John 10:30-33
30. "I and the Father are one."
31. The Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"
33. The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

If you think that God was in Jesus, you are telling us that God is residing in Jesus. That is a oneness doctrine concept. If God was inside Jesus, who Jesus is talking to when He prayed to the Father? Why Jesus did not pray by himself and answer it also by himself? Please answer.

Regarding John 14:28, this scripture is the answer why the Father is greater than Jesus. The Father is greater because Jesus is in the flesh taking the form of a servant (human).

Phil. 2:5-8
5. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7. but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Jesus is divine as God and human as Man in flesh.

Thanks

 

[firedragon]

Hi New,

Did you know that during their time, they are very cautious and careful to call someone "God'? this is the reason why they stoned Jesus when He claimed He is one with the the Father.

John 10:30-33
30. "I and the Father are one."
31. The Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"
33. The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

If you think that God was in Jesus, you are telling us that God is residing in Jesus. That is a oneness doctrine concept. If God was inside Jesus, who Jesus is talking to when He prayed to the Father? Why Jesus did not pray by himself and answer it also by himself? Please answer.

Regarding John 14:28, this scripture is the answer why the Father is greater than Jesus. The Father is greater because Jesus is in the flesh taking the form of a servant (human).

Phil. 2:5-8
5. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7. but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Jesus is divine as God and human as Man in flesh.

Thanks

They tried to stone him because he claims to be the Messiah. Thats blasphemy enough to the Jews.

And if you assess Jesus to be God because he says "I and my father are one" then even the disciples are Gods.

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me”. – John 17:20-23

 

[NewChapter]

Hi New,

Did you know that during their time, they are very cautious and careful to call someone "God'? this is the reason why they stoned Jesus when He claimed He is one with the the Father.

John 10:30-33
30. "I and the Father are one."
31. The Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"
33. The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."...

A husband and a wife are one...that doesn't mean that a husband is his wife and the wife is her husband.

John 10:30-33 must be interpreted within the context of John 14:28:

John 14:28
English Standard Version (ESV)
(28)You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

 

[Fool]

That's not even close to correct.

They were rhetorical prose first and foremost.

The NT included pseudohistorical accounts compiled from many previous traditions plagiarized from the OT.

The OT also written in rhetorical prose, contained many different methods that evolved into its current form that contained song, fiction, mythology, non fiction, history, pseudohistory, allegory, metaphor and a long list of other literary means.


And without an education on this topic most are blind, SO do not assume everyone has a limited grasp of these ancient text.

true, not all of the bible is written in song and poetry or songs is an overstep.

but alas it still says much about the observer in how its interpreted; 40,000+ denominations.

even scholars don't totally agree on what is and isn't.

metapsychology and the nature of the observers psyche are projected from experience. there is no total grasping of anything from this perspective

 

[outhouse]

there is no total grasping of anything from this perspective

So what.

There are educated opinions.

And there are foolish ones.

 

[Yoshua]

They tried to stone him because he claims to be the Messiah. Thats blasphemy enough to the Jews.

Yes, Jesus claimed to be God and Messiah.

John 4:25-26
25. The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us."
26. Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."

Who would you believe? Jesus or the Jews?

And if you assess Jesus to be God because he says "I and my father are one" then even the disciples are Gods.

No. It cannot be. You know why? only Jesus who claimed He is one with the Father, have the access to the Father, and He is the one and only sent by God. The disciples are not sent by God. Jesus confessed He is the way, the truth and the life. The disciples never said that, they are followers. That is very logical.

Thanks

 

[firedragon]

Yes, Jesus claimed to be God and Messiah.

John 4:25-26
25. The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us."
26. Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."

Who would you believe? Jesus or the Jews?

No. It cannot be. You know why? only Jesus who claimed He is one with the Father, have the access to the Father, and He is the one and only sent by God. The disciples are not sent by God. Jesus confessed He is the way, the truth and the life. The disciples never said that, they are followers. That is very logical.

Thanks

1. Jesus claimed to be the messiah, not and god. I didn't say it, neither did he. With all due respect, those are your words, not the gospels. 2. Jesus himself says that his disciples and him are one. So only in this case you don't care what Jesus says but only whether the desciples claimed. Jesus says, his disciples and him are one. The same Jesus who said I and the father are one.

 

[outhouse]

Jesus claimed to be the messiah, not and god

That man never claimed such.

Only the unknown authors who never knew or met him made that claim long after his death

Jesus himself says that his disciples and him are one

Same as above.

We really don't know much about what he really might have said

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Well, in Islam, Jesus is a prophet.

If you're asking having Christianity in mind, then it is different and I want to know too. Some Christians say He's God and others say Son of God!

I'm interested if the Christian brothers and sisters think He's other than that in some views.

Hey, Smart_Guy! Hope you are doing well!

Just now, I came across your post, and thought I'd reply. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and we try to follow Jesus, "to the letter," you might say. That's what "Christian" means, a "follower of Jesus". But we do not worship Him, we follow Him.....and Who did He worship? Jesus said, his Father. (John 4:23-24; John 17:3; John 20:17 ....Keep in mind, Martha worshipped Yahweh [Jehovah in English], since she was Jewish.) Jesus always directed attention to His Father; you cannot read the Gospels without getting that idea! We try to "follow (Jesus') steps closely"! --1 Peter 2:21

 

[Smart_Guy]

Hey, Smart_Guy! Hope you are doing well!

Just now, I came across your post, and thought I'd reply. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and we try to follow Jesus, "to the letter," you might say. That's what "Christian" means, a "follower of Jesus". But we do not worship Him, we follow Him.....and Who did He worship? Jesus said, his Father. (John 4:23-24; John 17:3; John 20:17 ....Keep in mind, Martha worshipped Yahweh [Jehovah in English], since she was Jewish.) Jesus always directed attention to His Father; you cannot read the Gospels without getting that idea! We try to "follow (Jesus') steps closely"! --1 Peter 2:21

Hello HCB, it's good to hear from you again

This is kinda similar to the Islamic way. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[firedragon]

That man never claimed such.

Only the unknown authors who never knew or met him made that claim long after his death



Same as above.

We really don't know much about what he really might have said

yes of course, but my discussion was a person who believes Jesus said it. Thus this argument does not stand ground. Peace.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, Jesus claimed to be God and Messiah.

John 4:25-26
25. The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us."
26. Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."

Who would you believe? Jesus or the Jews?

No. It cannot be. You know why? only Jesus who claimed He is one with the Father, have the access to the Father, and He is the one and only sent by God. The disciples are not sent by God. Jesus confessed He is the way, the truth and the life. The disciples never said that, they are followers. That is very logical.

Thanks

This is just out of curiosity. you quoted quoted verse that's messiah and Christ in the same verse (Within brackets). Now why would someone do that. It's like saying "your dad is coming (the one called father)". Just in two different languages. May I ask why?

 

[Fool]

So what.

There are educated opinions.

And there are foolish ones.

people, even scientists, learn from experience. it is no different except in the mind of the believer.

 

[outhouse]

yes of course, but my discussion was a person who believes Jesus said it.

Fair enough bud.