Is Jesus God?

[firedragon]

Hi Firedragon,

If someone wants to claim who he is, do you need to say " I am....... If I'm a father, do I need to tell you that I'm a father? If I say that he is my son, would that conclude that I'm a father?

Thanks

Brother. If thats the case, he is "Son of Man" as he claims, more weight than something we claim about him.

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/is-jesus-god.173687/page-81#post-4651231

 

[Yoshua]

Brother. If thats the case, he is "Son of Man" as he claims, more weight than something we claim about him.

http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/is-jesus-god.173687/page-81#post-4651231

Hi Firedragon,

Jesus calls himself "Son of man" many a time. Bar Nasha. That means human. In the old testament the phrase Son of man is used some 90 times. Or is it 93. Cant remember exactly. Ben Adam or Houios tou Anthropou. That means human. You can refer to yourself, or another person. I think the book of Ezekiel says Son of man around 80 times. This is the language you must try and relate to. by Firedragon

We don't deny that Jesus is the Son of Man and the Son of God. He is in flesh (human) and God (divine). This is where we found that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh and God who exists in the person of Jesus Christ.

If Jesus is just only a man, why he was worshiped? Why angels should worshiped Jesus as stated in the book of Hebrews 1:6? why?? How you will reconcile the Son of Man and the Son of God theologically?

Only God can take on the sins of the world.
2 Cor. 5:20-21
20. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
21. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Thanks

 

[firedragon]

Hi Firedragon,

Jesus calls himself "Son of man" many a time. Bar Nasha. That means human. In the old testament the phrase Son of man is used some 90 times. Or is it 93. Cant remember exactly. Ben Adam or Houios tou Anthropou. That means human. You can refer to yourself, or another person. I think the book of Ezekiel says Son of man around 80 times. This is the language you must try and relate to. by Firedragon

We don't deny that Jesus is the Son of Man and the Son of God. He is in flesh (human) and God (divine). This is where we found that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh and God who exists in the person of Jesus Christ.

If Jesus is just only a man, why he was worshiped? Why angels should worshiped Jesus as stated in the book of Hebrews 1:6? why?? How you will reconcile the Son of Man and the Son of God theologically?

Only God can take on the sins of the world.
2 Cor. 5:20-21
20. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were entreating through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
21. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Thanks

Bro Yoshua. I perfectly understand the theological stand of yours and respect your right for it. I only question the scriptural validity of it. But I dont intend to defame your theology at all.

Hoping that I dont offend you, I will try and respond to yours. If there are more than one answer, that doesnt mean all apply together, all apply on their own, individually.

1. Why was Jesus worshipped?

a. In India they worship even the milestone as God. I dont worship one just because others did, I need scriptural evidence.
b. Hebrew 1:6 it says Protokos and I get it that it refers to Jesus. Now who is prototokos? Is it Ephraim, Jesus or Israel. Or did the "First born son" change in time? Or are they all brothers? So does God have many son's?
c. Scholars have theories, but no evidence to who wrote Hebrews.
d. And you go against the attributed words of Jesus, while following Hebrews, a book you dont even know where it came from.

• Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I tell you? I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, hears my words, and acts on them. - Jesus Christ

• Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?' Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.' - Jesus Christ

VS

• And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." - Unknown

e. In greek, the worship interpretation comes from the word "proskuneesatusan" which literally means "Lets do obeisance". Obeisance is famously known as "Proskynesis". Check it out, it does not really mean worship like you supplicate to God.

Worship doesnt mean worshipping a God
"When they meet each other in the streets, you may know if the persons meeting are of equal rank by the following token: if they are, instead of speaking, they kiss each other on the lips. In the case where one is a little inferior to the other, the kiss is given on the cheek; where the difference of rank is great, the inferior prostrates himself upon the ground."

• Thats how you greet a prince, or a person of higher rank. That doesnt make you God, in that case most kings in the world are Gods and we have maybe a billion dead and gone God's
• Message to Philadelphia it has become Bow Down suddenly (Same word Proskynesis). So, Unknown author, we translate as Worship, known author (Revelations) we translate as Bow Down. Why? Otherwise those will also become God!!!
  
• Everytime someone is worshipped like that (Obeisance is the correct word) if they are to become God, then Joseph is God, Israels Sheaf is God, Israel is God, Moses's father in law is God because Moses himself who is called "A God to phareoh" worships him, David is God. Good God, there are dozens of God's

Son of Man

I have already explained Son of Man. But if you have a theory I would more than welcome it. If you want me to, I will even keep my big mouth shut after you pose your theory. If you want.

Dying to take the sins

Suffering and dying for the sins of man comes up in Luke. (24:45-49)

Those verses are fabrications bro. They were not there in older bibles. You can check out older codexes like Vaticanus. I love sinaiticus personally for the authenticity of it. Mark16:9-20 and Luke 24:24-53 all newly added at some point. The vulgate has them but now we have evolved in studies. They were later developed theologies, thats why people try to add them to the Gospels.

Four central concepts attributed to Jesus are forgeries added to the Gospel
of Luke

• Appearance to his disciples
• Jesus dying for the sins of humanity
• His ascension to heaven
• Disciples worshipping him while he ascends

Peace brother. And thank you.

 

[Notaclue]

Notaclue said: ↑Christ Jesus is of God and of Man.


Well, previously you quoted it with the "between", and I'm not sure how you feel this changes whether Jesus is God, if at all. You would need to elaborate on your position more. Either way, I think it better to have a mediator who is both God and man.


What do you mean by “of God and of Man”? That Jesus is both God and Man, that he is neither God nor Man, that he is only God or Man, that he is the same God and the same man, or something else entirely?


1Tim.2:5.(D.R.) For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

the man Christ Jesus:

Christ Jesus is a Man.


Jn.4:24. "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and "truth".

"God is spirit,


(Quote) Oeste

Lastly, what I don’t see here is a verse that simply says "God is not a man", and even if there were such a verse, it would be written prior to the incarnation and birth of our Lord, Jesus Christ, not after, so it wouldn’t apply. However I do see verses that say our Savior is God, specifically in the book of Isaiah. I've mentioned these verses before and no one has commented on this or the majority of questions posted.

I already showed you two verses, I can't fix................ English comprehension!


Col.1:18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the 'firstborn from the dead;' that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Rev.1:5. and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the 'firstborn of the dead' , and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--


Did you know 'your' God was born from the dead?


Rev.5:6. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and "of the four beasts," and in the midst of the elders, stood a 'Lamb' as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

"of the four beasts"

What are your teachings on the Lamb being 'of the four beasts' ?



Peace.

 

[Xenosaga Dragonzord]

Prophet Jesus or Isa.... is not God or Son of God.

Jesus son of mary just human, messenger and prophet of God like adam, noah,moses and muhammad

and every prophet have supernatural and miracle power......, and the power coming from God

All prophet is equal

People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity'—stop, that is better for you—God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust. Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa), ayat 171

Those who say, "God is the Messiah, son of Mary," have defied God. The Messiah himself said; "Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord." If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers. Those people who say that God is the third of three are defying [the truth]: there is only One God. If they persist in what they are saying, a painful punishment will afflict those of them who persist. Why do they not turn to God and ask his forgiveness, when God is most forgiving, most merciful? The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; other messengers had come and gone before him; his mother was a virtuous woman; both ate food. See how clear We make these signs for them; see how deluded they are.— Qur'an, sura 5 (Al-Ma'ida), ayat 72-75

And when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. Qur'an, sura 5 (Al-Ma'ida), ayat 116



Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (Qur'an, sura 112 (Al-Ikhlas), ayat 1-4)

 

[Kirran]

There's no particular reason that a Christian would take much stock in the words of the Qur'an, or a Muslim those of the Bible. Quoting your scriptures at each other is unlikely to get anybody anywhere.

 

[firedragon]

Prophet Jesus or Isa.... is not God or Son of God.

Jesus son of mary just human, messenger and prophet of God like adam, noah,moses and muhammad

and every prophet have supernatural and miracle power......, and the power coming from God

All prophet is equal

People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity'—stop, that is better for you—God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust. Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa), ayat 171

Those who say, "God is the Messiah, son of Mary," have defied God. The Messiah himself said; "Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord." If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers. Those people who say that God is the third of three are defying [the truth]: there is only One God. If they persist in what they are saying, a painful punishment will afflict those of them who persist. Why do they not turn to God and ask his forgiveness, when God is most forgiving, most merciful? The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; other messengers had come and gone before him; his mother was a virtuous woman; both ate food. See how clear We make these signs for them; see how deluded they are.— Qur'an, sura 5 (Al-Ma'ida), ayat 72-75

And when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. Qur'an, sura 5 (Al-Ma'ida), ayat 116



Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (Qur'an, sura 112 (Al-Ikhlas), ayat 1-4)

Bro. I am a Muslim. Quoting the Quran to a Christian is fruitless. It looks like you just wanna say something.

I think if you want to put the Quranic idea about the Christ in this discussion, you or I must first say something like, "I know this is not relevant to you, but this is only for your information". Maybe something to that nature.

Apologies, I dont mean to offend you.

Peace.

 

[Yoshua]

Bro Yoshua. I perfectly understand the theological stand of yours and respect your right for it. I only question the scriptural validity of it. But I dont intend to defame your theology at all.

Hoping that I dont offend you, I will try and respond to yours. If there are more than one answer, that doesnt mean all apply together, all apply on their own, individually.

1. Why was Jesus worshipped?

a. In India they worship even the milestone as God. I dont worship one just because others did, I need scriptural evidence.
b. Hebrew 1:6 it says Protokos and I get it that it refers to Jesus. Now who is prototokos? Is it Ephraim, Jesus or Israel. Or did the "First born son" change in time? Or are they all brothers? So does God have many son's?
c. Scholars have theories, but no evidence to who wrote Hebrews.
d. And you go against the attributed words of Jesus, while following Hebrews, a book you dont even know where it came from.

• Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I tell you? I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, hears my words, and acts on them. - Jesus Christ

• Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?' Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.' - Jesus Christ

VS

• And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." - Unknown

e. In greek, the worship interpretation comes from the word "proskuneesatusan" which literally means "Lets do obeisance". Obeisance is famously known as "Proskynesis". Check it out, it does not really mean worship like you supplicate to God.

Worship doesnt mean worshipping a God
"When they meet each other in the streets, you may know if the persons meeting are of equal rank by the following token: if they are, instead of speaking, they kiss each other on the lips. In the case where one is a little inferior to the other, the kiss is given on the cheek; where the difference of rank is great, the inferior prostrates himself upon the ground."

• Thats how you greet a prince, or a person of higher rank. That doesnt make you God, in that case most kings in the world are Gods and we have maybe a billion dead and gone God's
• Message to Philadelphia it has become Bow Down suddenly (Same word Proskynesis). So, Unknown author, we translate as Worship, known author (Revelations) we translate as Bow Down. Why? Otherwise those will also become God!!!
  
• Everytime someone is worshipped like that (Obeisance is the correct word) if they are to become God, then Joseph is God, Israels Sheaf is God, Israel is God, Moses's father in law is God because Moses himself who is called "A God to phareoh" worships him, David is God. Good God, there are dozens of God's

Hi firedragon,

It depends on the context for Jesus, God, Joseph, David, Moses and other characters of the Bible. We cannot worship a human except when he is truly God-sent. By the way, this is all about Jesus if He is to be worship or not.

Let’s look at the following scripture text about worship for Jesus.

Matthew 2:2, 8, 11, "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him.”

Matt. 2:8 [Herod says,] “Go and make careful search for the Child; and when you have found Him, report to me, that I too may come and worship Him”

Matt. 2:11 “And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother and they fell down and worshiped Him"

Matt. 28:9 "And they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy and ran to report it to His disciples. And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him"

If you would notice with the text that the Magi were already down and worshiped Him.

Matthew 14:3, Peter gets out of the boat and walks on the water. Peter starts to sink, Jesus reaches out and saves him. And when they got into the boat the wind stopped. And those who were in the boat worshipped Him saying, "You are certainly God's Son!"

Matthew 28:17 it says, "And when they saw Him, [the risen Jesus Christ whom they knew had been dead and was now alive] they worshipped Him."

John 9:38 the man blind from birth is healed. He said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him.

The context shows that Jesus is much more than a respect. How can you reconcile the context of “falling down and worship”? We believed that worship belongs to God same as for Jesus as the Son of God.

Son of Man

I have already explained Son of Man. But if you have a theory I would more than welcome it. If you want me to, I will even keep my big mouth shut after you pose your theory. If you want.

Dying to take the sins

Suffering and dying for the sins of man comes up in Luke. (24:45-49)

Those verses are fabrications bro. They were not there in older bibles. You can check out older codexes like Vaticanus. I love sinaiticus personally for the authenticity of it. Mark16:9-20 and Luke 24:24-53 all newly added at some point. The vulgate has them but now we have evolved in studies. They were later developed theologies, thats why people try to add them to the Gospels.

Four central concepts attributed to Jesus are forgeries added to the Gospel
of Luke

• Appearance to his disciples
• Jesus dying for the sins of humanity
• His ascension to heaven
• Disciples worshipping him while he ascends

Peace brother. And thank you.

Forgeries? How about the book of Matthew, John, Acts and the letters of Paul? May I know what gospels that you are in favor if you don’t like Mark and Luke?

Thanks

 

[Oeste]

Hey, Smart_Guy! Hope you are doing well!

Just now, I came across your post, and thought I'd reply. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and we try to follow Jesus, "to the letter," you might say. That's what "Christian" means, a "follower of Jesus". But we do not worship Him, we follow Him.....and Who did He worship? Jesus said, his Father. (John 4:23-24; John 17:3; John 20:17 ....Keep in mind, Martha worshipped Yahweh [Jehovah in English], since she was Jewish.) Jesus always directed attention to His Father; you cannot read the Gospels without getting that idea! We try to "follow (Jesus') steps closely"! --1 Peter 2:21

Hello HCB, it's good to hear from you again

This is kinda similar to the Islamic way. Thanks for the heads up.

I agree with both of you that the Watchtower's (Jehovah Witnesses) view of Jesus is very similar to that of Islam, just not to that of the historical Christian church.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I agree with both of you that the Watchtower's (Jehovah Witnesses) view of Jesus is very similar to that of Islam, just not to that of the historical Christian church.

Only after 325 C.E. And who presided over that council? The murderer, Constantine the Great. Regarding the Apostles and the first-century Christians, their prayer recorded at Acts of the Apostles 4:24-30, tells us who they worshipped....the Father of Jesus (who Jesus called "the only true God", John 17:3). Why weren't they praying to Jesus? Actually, they referred to Jesus as, God's "Servant"! Far cry from God!

Also, consider: why would Christians worship at the Temple (until its destruction in 70 C.E.)? That was where people worshipped Jehovah.

The fact is, God didn't change....only the proper way to worship Him, did.....through faith in Jesus' sacrifice.

 

[Oeste]

What do you mean by “of God and of Man”? That Jesus is both God and Man, that he is neither God nor Man, that he is only God or Man, that he is the same God and the same man, or something else entirely?

1Tim.2:5.(D.R.) For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

the man Christ Jesus:

Christ Jesus is a Man.

No one here is arguing as to whether Jesus is a man. The question here is whether he is also God, which I believe he is.

Jn.4:24. "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and "truth".

"God is spirit,

Are you of the opinion that you are flesh and bones, lacking spirit, or do you believe you have flesh and bones with spirit?

Also, how do you explain John 1:14?

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."​

Or Isaiah 9:6:

"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."​

Lastly, what I don’t see here is a verse that simply says "God is not a man", and even if there were such a verse, it would be written prior to the incarnation and birth of our Lord, Jesus Christ, not after, so it wouldn’t apply. However I do see verses that say our Savior is God, specifically in the book of Isaiah. I've mentioned these verses before and no one has commented on this or the majority of questions posted.

I already showed you two verses, I can't fix................ English comprehension!

Col.1:18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the 'firstborn from the dead;' that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Rev.1:5. and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the 'firstborn of the dead' , and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood--


Did you know 'your' God was born from the dead?

Okay, so it looks like English is not your first language, which is not a problem. We can always work around that, however I don't see how the two verses you've quoted refute anything I've said, especially since these verse were written after the incarnation.

It appears you look at the bible in bits and pieces without effort to harmonize scriptures. Firedragon appears to be saying that Christian scripture harmonizes if we just throw out a few books here and there. Is this your opinion as well?

Jesus is the first born of creation and first born of the dead. This does not mean he was the first to be created anymore than it means he was the first to rise from death, but it does show his preeminence over all of creation and death.

Rev.5:6. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and "of the four beasts," and in the midst of the elders, stood a 'Lamb' as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

"of the four beasts"

What are your teachings on the Lamb being 'of the four beasts' ?

I think commenting on Revelation would add little to whether Jesus is God and might distract us from thread theme.

 

[moorea944]

No one here is arguing as to whether Jesus is a man. The question here is whether he is also God, which I believe he is.



Are you of the opinion that you are flesh and bones, lacking spirit, or do you believe you have flesh and bones with spirit?

Also, how do you explain John 1:14?

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."​

Or Isaiah 9:6:

"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."​

Okay, so it looks like English is not your first language, which is not a problem. We can always work around that, however I don't see how the two verses you've quoted refute anything I've said, especially since these verse were written after the incarnation.

It appears you look at the bible in bits and pieces without effort to harmonize scriptures. Firedragon appears to be saying that Christian scripture harmonizes if we just throw out a few books here and there. Is this your opinion as well?

Jesus is the first born of creation and first born of the dead. This does not mean he was the first to be created anymore than it means he was the first to rise from death, but it does show his preeminence over all of creation and death.




I think commenting on Revelation would add little to whether Jesus is God and might distract us from thread theme.

Also, how do you explain John 1:14?
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Explaining these two verses is quite easy. Most trinitarians make the word "Word" Jesus and nothing else, because in scripture it tells us that Jesus IS the word. But... in this verse it is much more. When you look it up in Greek, it is "logos". Logos means someone's plans, thoughts or reasons. And yes, Jesus is part of that. In the beginning was the logos or God's plans. And then (verse 14) His plans became flesh. Very simple language. It is NOT saying that Jesus is God. Or he pre-existed.

Or Isaiah 9:6:
"For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

Might God.... bad translation? In Hebrew it is the power of God. The mighty El. And yes, Jesus is the power of God. But that does not make him his father or Creator. This is a future prophecy of when he's here at his second coming, not his first. The government will rest upon his shoulders. Second coming.
I know that the trinitarians love certain verses, but when you look at it more closely, it proves differently....

 

[Notaclue]

No one here is arguing as to whether Jesus is a man. The question here is whether he is also God, which I believe he is.



Are you of the opinion that you are flesh and bones, lacking spirit, or do you believe you have flesh and bones with spirit?


I say God is 'not' flesh and blood.


1Cor.15:50. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.



Also, how do you explain John 1:14?

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."


Jn.1:14. And the Word 'was made' flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

​

18. No man hath seen God at any time;


and we "beheld" his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


You have to read the chapter in Context.



Jn.5:37. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.


1Jn.1:1. That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we 'have seen' with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and 'our hands have handled', of the Word of life;2(For the life was manifested, and we have 'seen it,' and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us.


1Jn.4:12. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.


No man hath seen God at any time.


1Jn.4:20. if a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he 'hath not seen'?


how can he love God whom he 'hath not seen'?


1Tim.6:16. Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which ' no man' can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.


dwelling in the light which ' no man' can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see:

​

Or Isaiah 9:6:

​

Okay, so it looks like English is not your first language, which is not a problem. We can always work around that, however I don't see how the two verses you've quoted refute anything I've said, especially since these verse were written after the incarnation.

It appears you look at the bible in bits and pieces without effort to harmonize scriptures. Firedragon appears to be saying that Christian scripture harmonizes if we just throw out a few books here and there. Is this your opinion as well?

Jesus is the first born of creation and first born of the dead. This does not mean he was the first to be created anymore than it means he was the first to rise from death, but it does show his preeminence over all of creation and death.



born
(bôrn)
v.
A past participle of bear1.
adj.
1.
a. Brought into life by birth.
b. Brought into existence; created: A new nation was born with the revolution


"This does not mean he was the first to be created anymore than it means he was the first to rise from death, "


How in God's name do you think ?




I think commenting on Revelation would add little to whether Jesus is God and might distract us from thread theme.


I am just getting started with Revelations !


How is the Lamb(Jesus) of the four beasts (lives) ?

Is Jesus of the four beasts (lives) ?

Is God of the four beasts(lives) ?


Is Jesus God ?


Peace.

 

[firedragon]

Hi firedragon,

It depends on the context for Jesus, God, Joseph, David, Moses and other characters of the Bible. We cannot worship a human except when he is truly God-sent. By the way, this is all about Jesus if He is to be worship or not.

Let’s look at the following scripture text about worship for Jesus.

Matthew 2:2, 8, 11, "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him.”

Matt. 2:8 [Herod says,] “Go and make careful search for the Child; and when you have found Him, report to me, that I too may come and worship Him”

Matt. 2:11 “And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother and they fell down and worshiped Him"

Matt. 28:9 "And they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy and ran to report it to His disciples. And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him"

If you would notice with the text that the Magi were already down and worshiped Him.

Matthew 14:3, Peter gets out of the boat and walks on the water. Peter starts to sink, Jesus reaches out and saves him. And when they got into the boat the wind stopped. And those who were in the boat worshipped Him saying, "You are certainly God's Son!"

Matthew 28:17 it says, "And when they saw Him, [the risen Jesus Christ whom they knew had been dead and was now alive] they worshipped Him."

John 9:38 the man blind from birth is healed. He said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him.

The context shows that Jesus is much more than a respect. How can you reconcile the context of “falling down and worship”? We believed that worship belongs to God same as for Jesus as the Son of God.

Forgeries? How about the book of Matthew, John, Acts and the letters of Paul? May I know what gospels that you are in favor if you don’t like Mark and Luke?

Thanks

I explained what this "Worship" is. Its not really worship.

Also, again, I dont worship one person because others did. Especially one who didnt claim to be God.

And I did not talk of forgeries. Maybe you referred to another person brother. (BTW, Mark is my favourite Gospel)



Do you know what Jesus vehemently claimed to be over and over? A Son of Man.

 

[moorea944]

I explained what this "Worship" is. Its not really worship.

Also, again, I dont worship one person because others did. Especially one who didnt claim to be God.

And I did not talk of forgeries. Maybe you referred to another person brother. (BTW, Mark is my favourite Gospel)



Do you know what Jesus vehemently claimed to be over and over? A Son of Man.

How true.... I think Son of God is used 30+ times in the NT and Son of Man 78 ish.

 

[firedragon]

How true.... I think Son of God is used 30+ times in the NT and Son of Man 78 ish.

I think you must be absolutely right.

Moreover, the more pressing point is, Son of God was also not always Jesus telling about himself. Some are third party quotes.

Jesus calls himself Son of Man.

 

[Notaclue]

↑
Notaclue said: ↑Christ Jesus is of God and of Man.
What do you mean by “of God and of Man”? That Jesus is both God and Man, that he is neither God nor Man, that he is only God or Man, that he is the same God and the same man, or something else entirely?


Yoshua specifically asked you about modalism which is still unanswered. What is your response???


Definition of modalism. plural. : the theological doctrine that the members of the Trinity are not three distinct persons but rather three modes or forms of activity (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) under which God manifests himself.


I believe in One God, the Father Almighty creator of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God.


The Son of God is part of the creation.


I believe the Spirit of God was created in the Beginning.


Peace.

 

[firedragon]

↑
Notaclue said: ↑Christ Jesus is of God and of Man.
What do you mean by “of God and of Man”? That Jesus is both God and Man, that he is neither God nor Man, that he is only God or Man, that he is the same God and the same man, or something else entirely?


Yoshua specifically asked you about modalism which is still unanswered. What is your response???


Definition of modalism. plural. : the theological doctrine that the members of the Trinity are not three distinct persons but rather three modes or forms of activity (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) under which God manifests himself.


I believe in One God, the Father Almighty creator of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God.


The Son of God is part of the creation.


I believe the Spirit of God was created in the Beginning.


Peace.

Are you speaking from your own point of view or from the scriptural point view.

Also, when you say spirit of God was created in the beginning, do you mean the holy spirit or God himself?

Whith what evidence do you say "Jesus Christ, the only Son of God"?

 

[moorea944]

I can never understand why some people believe that Jesus is both God and man at the same time, even though scripture doesnt say it. Why cant we just believe that he is the Son of God? The bible says that one... How can you be immortal and mortal at the same time? If... Jesus is God, co-equal, co-everything, why then role play this father and son thing.... dont get it... If they were both God, why cant the bible say it? Why was Mary told her son would be the "Son of God"? Why was David told that someone from him would restore his throne at a later date? Why was Moses told that someone like him would "raise up" (not descend) from the people. In the NT, God is the God and Father of Jesus. But anyhow......

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I can never understand why some people believe that Jesus is both God and man at the same time, even though scripture doesnt say it. Why cant we just believe that he is the Son of God? The bible says that one... How can you be immortal and mortal at the same time? If... Jesus is God, co-equal, co-everything, why then role play this father and son thing.... dont get it... If they were both God, why cant the bible say it? Why was Mary told her son would be the "Son of God"? Why was David told that someone from him would restore his throne at a later date? Why was Moses told that someone like him would "raise up" (not descend) from the people. In the NT, God is the God and Father of Jesus. But anyhow......

Because the Bible does say Jesus is God. John 8:58 "Before Abraham was, I am", invoking the very name of God, and even more explicitly Romans 9:5 "To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen." These are just a couple of examples.