That is a complex question. On one level everything is God but Jesus was special. He is not the same as the divine essence but he is the direct human manifestation of the second person of God. Trinitarian theology is necessarily simplifying and because of the demands of dogmatic theology but sacrifice some of the valid nuances of pure metaphysics. It is a shame that Christianity has again and over-rigidly defined necessarily fluid doctrines on the Trinity, Incarnation and Christology, it has caused a lot of rather pointless historical rifts and conflicts. But from the Christian position Christ is God in a way that other individuals are not and this perfectly metaphysically valid, even if some particulars of its dogmatic theology are mistaken or more fluid than sometimes made out. I hope this can give some sort of aid.
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Is Jesus GOD?
- Thread starter muzu
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tomato1236
Ninja Master
Most of christians have belief that Jesus is GOD? i failed to understand if Jesus indeed is GOD, then how could he die? Can God die? Suppose, if he died for whatever reason, someone else there has to bring him back to life (reserruction). Is he God then?
Please through some light on this..
Whoa, I never thought of it like this. You mean God died?!??!?!!
In the end, we'll never know who Jesus truly was. He obviously had some divinity to him since he was able to cure and forgive sins. However, he was very vocal about his love of his Father and often prayed. Why would God pray to Himself? Jesus even says, "no one knows the Father but the son and no one knows the son but the Father and the few he chooses". Therefore, it's impossible for man to figure it out. However, I think its possible to debunk the trinity. Mostly because it was obviously created by man sometime after Jesus was already ascended into Heaven.
Healing light
New Member
There is a question I need to ask:
Is there a single unequivocal statement in the bible where Jesus Christ himself claimed that he was God?
If so, I would like to know the verses so I can see it for myself.
Is there a single unequivocal statement in the bible where Jesus Christ himself claimed that he was God?
If so, I would like to know the verses so I can see it for myself.
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
Hmmm. Why would a Muslim ask that question unless he didn't have already have an answer ready? This is a clumsy trap. It won't work unless you use more cunning.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
no.
According to trinitarians, Jesus and others 'implied' it but never specifically said it.
The ONLY time the New Testament has made me stop and think, "wait a minute, could Jesus really be God" is at the end of the Gospel of Matthew in which he says - "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
However, then I realize that there is a strong possibility this could have been added much later to confirm trinitarian views. I doubt it because no where else in the gospels is a similar statement uttered. Also, maybe to justify it, I don't think it necessarily means he's God anyway. Jesus obviously had divinity to him from God, which is why he was able to do the things he did. Maybe since he went through the crucifixion as God did, Jesus received sort of a "promotion"? Who knows. However, it still remains that Jesus never once called himself God (probably would have been crucified a whole lot faster if that was the case).
However, then I realize that there is a strong possibility this could have been added much later to confirm trinitarian views. I doubt it because no where else in the gospels is a similar statement uttered. Also, maybe to justify it, I don't think it necessarily means he's God anyway. Jesus obviously had divinity to him from God, which is why he was able to do the things he did. Maybe since he went through the crucifixion as God did, Jesus received sort of a "promotion"? Who knows. However, it still remains that Jesus never once called himself God (probably would have been crucified a whole lot faster if that was the case).
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
That's pretty unequivocal. Also, Jesus must have made it clear enough to the Sanhedrin and teachers of the law, just who he was. They must have believed him, because why else would they go to such lengths to get him killed?
lemie
New Member
I just want to ask christians about jesus. Genuinely to get some knowledge, not to debate.
What happens when Jesus died? Was he died like other human being? I'm not really clear about the trinity concept bcoz it is hard for me to digest. So, what was happened to the god when one part of the trinity died?
What happens when Jesus died? Was he died like other human being? I'm not really clear about the trinity concept bcoz it is hard for me to digest. So, what was happened to the god when one part of the trinity died?
Walkntune
Well-Known Member
I have my own interpretation I will shareI just want to ask christians about jesus. Genuinely to get some knowledge, not to debate.
What happens when Jesus died? Was he died like other human being? I'm not really clear about the trinity concept bcoz it is hard for me to digest. So, what was happened to the god when one part of the trinity died?
I see Jesus as representing perfect flesh that never sinned and completely submitted to the Spirit of God indwelling on the inside which he spoke of as the Father.
Jesus was so obedient that he only reflected the Spirit of God.When you saw him,you saw the Father.HE was God in flesh.
God is Spirit and not natural so when Jesus dying on the cross was His sole purpose of fulfilling what were not able to but does represent us dying to our own flesh and being Christ like.
For a Christian to be Christlike is to die to our flesh as well and surrender to God who indwells us.We are to pick up our cross and follow Jesus.
To confuse the trinity is to confuse what is spiritual with what is natural and to think that death has an effect.
When two people get married they are joined together as one.This is Spiritual and not in the natural.
We are all to be one in Christ. This is also one in Spirit.
This is how I understand trinity anyway.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
His death answered the universal question raised by Satan the devil about mankind. It was his accusation that humans only worship God if they get something out of it...hence why it was so easy for Adam to sin against God. The book of Job is where we find Satans accusation.
2ndly, his death opened the way for God to grant forgiveness to humans for their sins so that, in the future, we do not have to die for our sins as we do now.
Was he died like other human being? I'm not really clear about the trinity concept bcoz it is hard for me to digest. So, what was happened to the god when one part of the trinity died?
Jesus did die. But he was resurrected on the 3rd day by God and soon after returned to heaven from where he had come.
He was not a part of the trinity. Jesus was a separate individual to God Almighty...he was Gods 'only begotten son'... this means he was a created being like the angels in heaven. He was the first and only angel God created....all other angles came into existence by Jesus.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
JW use the transliterated 'Jehovah' for 'YHVH' which stands for the Hebrew יהוה. Most bibles however use the translation 'God' for the word 'Elohim' which is a transliteration of the Hebrew אלהים, and they use 'Lord' for 'YHVH'.
And in the New Testament, most bibles use the translation 'God' for the word 'Theos' which is a transliteration of the Greek Word qeon.
However IIRCC, JW use Jehovah in all cases, which is poor IMHO as there does seem to be a distinct difference between Elohim and Yhvh. To better understand here are a couple of links that may help you check it out.
Oh and please correct me if I've made an error.
Strong's Hebrew Bible Dictionary - SpeedBible by johnhurt.com
Strong's Greek Dictionary - SpeedBible by johnhurt.com
Parallel Hebrew Old Testament
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
the NWT does distinguish between Elohim and YHWH and Adonai.
One example is Gen 17:1
When A′bram got to be ninety-nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to A′bram and said to him: I am God Almighty. Walk before me and prove yourself faultless."
What most other bibles do when they translate the name YHWH where it is found in the original language, they use LORD in capitals to distinguish it from Elohim/God
EG.
NIV Gen 1:17 "When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty [a] ; walk before me and be blameless."
The KJ version also did this.
"And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
Another good example can be seen in Psalm 110:1 where other translations distinguish the tetragrammaton by LORD in capitals.
NWT- The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.
KJV- The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
NIV-The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."
When it comes to the NT, many will say that Jehovah should not be in there, but there is reason to put it in there. The NT writers quoted hundreds of passages from the Septuagint, and many of the passages they quote has the tetragrammaton right in the Greek text of early copies of the Septuagint. Its not likely that they would have avoided speaking the name in the way the jews superstitiously did...and still do. What we read about Jesus is that he made 'Gods name manifest' as John 17:26 says: "And I have made your name known to them and will make it known"
So if the tetragrammaton was in the Septuagint, then there is no reason not to put it in the NT which is why the NWT has put it in there.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Hi Pegg, thanks for your response.
It is my understanding that the reason for the two names that are used for God in the old testament is that there were originally two different traditions, Elohim and Yahwah. At some point the two were redacted to produce a single standard for all Jews/Israelis. Now there are scholars here that are more learned than I but for the moment that is my present understanding.
Now in Genesis 1 concerning creation, the word God in most English bibles is a translation of Elohim not Yahwah. Now Elohim apparently is a plural term and means Watchers, Gods, so it appears to refer to Deities, but Yahwah on the other hand is singular and represent the God supreme.
Now there are many religious scholars who try to brush over this problem of plurality in Genesis for reasons of maintaining the integrity of the tradition of Monotheism, but it doesn't wash with me. It doesn't really threaten the integrity of there being ONE Supreme Being, just that in the hierarchy of the One Existence, there are lessor Deities represented by terms such as Archangels which is plural and that creation is carried out not directly by the Supreme, but by these lessor Deities.
Sorry for the digression off topic.
It is my understanding that the reason for the two names that are used for God in the old testament is that there were originally two different traditions, Elohim and Yahwah. At some point the two were redacted to produce a single standard for all Jews/Israelis. Now there are scholars here that are more learned than I but for the moment that is my present understanding.
Now in Genesis 1 concerning creation, the word God in most English bibles is a translation of Elohim not Yahwah. Now Elohim apparently is a plural term and means Watchers, Gods, so it appears to refer to Deities, but Yahwah on the other hand is singular and represent the God supreme.
Now there are many religious scholars who try to brush over this problem of plurality in Genesis for reasons of maintaining the integrity of the tradition of Monotheism, but it doesn't wash with me. It doesn't really threaten the integrity of there being ONE Supreme Being, just that in the hierarchy of the One Existence, there are lessor Deities represented by terms such as Archangels which is plural and that creation is carried out not directly by the Supreme, but by these lessor Deities.
Sorry for the digression off topic.
lemie
New Member
Do you mean we die bcoz we sins? What about other people who died before God send Jesus down to earth?
So, all other angels were created by Jesus?
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
hey, no problem.
Elohim is actually just a title, its not a name which is why there were other beings in the heavens who are called by this verb.
Sovereign Lord, Creator, Father, the Almighty, and the Most High". These are all titles. YHWH on the other hand is a personal name...it means 'he causes to become'
Now there are many religious scholars who try to brush over this problem of plurality in Genesis for reasons of maintaining the integrity of the tradition of Monotheism, but it doesn't wash with me. It doesn't really threaten the integrity of there being ONE Supreme Being, just that in the hierarchy of the One Existence, there are lessor Deities represented by terms such as Archangels which is plural and that creation is carried out not directly by the Supreme, but by these lessor Deities.
Sorry for the digression off topic.
I"ll dig up some other information about 'Elohim' and its plurality in scripture.
Just keep in mind that Elohim is merely a verb...its not naming God...its a title which is why there are many gods named in the bible.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
they will all be resurrected and given another chance at life according to Jesus... so will anyone who has died in recent times
John 5:28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment
and death will be done away with entirely
Revelation 21:4: He will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be any more. The former things have passed away.
Correct. Jesus was Gods master worker according to Proverbs 8
When [God] prepared the heavens I was there...then I came to be beside him as a master worker and I came to be what he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time. Prov. 8:27-30
This one was originally with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence by means of him was life, and the life was the light of men. John 1:2-4
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Thanks Pegg, what you have stated is covered in my Hastings dictionary of the Bible, plus more concerning possible connection to pagan Gods in earlier times.
Still it is my understanding that if JW translate 'Elohim' as 'Jehovah' throughout the Bible, then passages that are meant to refer to "beings in Heavens" rather than the Supreme God, could lose some nuanced meaning that was intended.
But don't worry about it Pegg, so long as Grace is present, the meaning intended will be still be intuited, for IMHO, without Grace all the scholarship in the world will not bring the intended meaning to light.
God Bless :namaste
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
I've done a bit of digging and found a few references which help to understand the issue.
Elohim is a plural word (not name) for God in Hebrew but, unlike english, plural words are still applied to single entities in the hebrew language. One example is that the Persian king is spoken of in several verses as 'melakhim' which is a plural hebrew word for ‘king’. But in the verses, only the one king is being spoken of.
Aaron Ember writes in The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures (Vol. XXI, July 1905): “Several phenomena in the universe were designated in Hebrew by plural expressions because they inspired the Hebrew mind with the idea of greatness, majesty, grandeur, and holiness.”
There are also other words which are plurals but which apply to a single human eg. adonim for master and baalim for owner/lord. It seems these words are in plural because it emphasizes the position of the one being spoken of.
So the Elohim in genesis does not mean that God is more then one...it apparently designates his greatness.
Just an interesting parallel...you should be able to see the difference in these sentences.
That is a large dog.
That is a large dog!
Using the exclamation mark emphasizes the point more then the one without. Sometimes we even use 3 exclamation marks to over emphasize the point eg:
Dont be late.
Dont be late!
Dont be late!!!