Is jesus his own father?

[sojourner]

You search only for understanding that supports your pre described beliefs.

No, we don't. We search further.

And suppress your own questions you have about your faith and god, buy calling them mystery’s, or miracle.

Much of the work of maturing in faith is to learn to live with the myriad questions such faith raises for us.

How you puff up at the saying that your love is nothing more than self love, Narcissistic, self serving, and wrong. Religion teaches you to debase yourself, and to then praise god and to draw close to him and then be in him, all blame and error can be deflected by the god you now serve, you can at the same time claim that you are lowly and frail, but through your god have all strength, and set with god in his throne of judgment. The high-mindedness you had before you project on to you god. You truly have your cake and eat it to.

Yeah, except that's not how it really works, and those who follow this course end up really spiritually messed up.

God is not real, at least not the god of the bible, or even the god of the Christians.

God is reality, itself.

The likelihood of all other faiths that ever were, all being wrong and only yours being rights is foolishness.

I believe that all spiritual expressions have some handle on Deity.

When you can blame evil on a devil, or your acts on a god , you no longer have to take the blame, like there is no forgiveness with out the shedding of blood.

Healthy, mature Christians don't do that. Jesus did not need to shed blood to forgive sin. There are several examples of that in the Bible. In fact, that is partly what induced the religious authorities to turn him in.

I believe that god could have made man with out sin,

God did make us without sin.

I believe that the god man serves, is tainted by very humanity that makes man who he is.

And yet, we are cleansed by the very God that served us, who has made us who we are.

It is our reason, our wish, our hope, our faith, that drives us to answer the questions we cant ever hope to know. And in our failing we are left with religion, and dogma, creed. And it is they that we worship, and kill for.

Sadly, that is true of many folks. But it's not true of many folks, too. And the best of Xy sees that these things are means to an end, not the ends themselves.

Never knowing the empty heat that burns in its heart, consumes our lives, and robes us of any real pathway to understanding. And freedom.

Unfortunately, it is what we make of it.

 

[Beaudreaux]

ICE
STEAM
WATER

H2O=1=3

:sorry1:....

Can you show me a substance that is totally ice, totally steam and totally water at the same time?

:sorry1:....

 

[Mr Cheese]

Can you show me a substance that is totally ice, totally steam and totally water at the same time?

:sorry1:....

I don't get your point?

very few christians, besides Mormons see the trinity as 3 seperate beings...

oh and the "non denominational" (cough cough) ones...

 

[Katzpur]

I don't get your point?

I think the point is that the ice, water, steam analogy is so often used to describe the Trinity that its getting to where nobody even takes the time to see the obvious flaw in it. All three of these substances (ice, water, and steam) are merely forms of H2O, and so this is supposed to imply that one "God" can be three different persons -- the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. The question is, when one of them is present, do the other two cease temporarily to exist? When water, freezes, it ceases to be either a liquid or a gas. When it boils, it ceases to be both a liquid and a solid. How does the Trinity work in that regard? Obviously, there are flaws in any analogy and I think that if you try, you can use pretty much any analogy as a learning tool, to help you understand something that wouldn't otherwise make sense to you. That particular analogy, however, is so flawed that I don't personally find much use for it.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I don't get your point?

My point is your analogy falls flat and the trinity is still saying 3 = 1. The doctrine of the trinity does not say that at any given moment God can be in one of three forms (like water can). The trinity says that God is three seperate things AND only one thing at the same time. 3 = 1. It is one of the "mysteries" of the church and it is pure irrationality.

 

[sky cake]

trinity = magic

 

[smitten508]

The egg thing isn't poetry friend, and if you think it is I'm glad you aren't writing anywhere but here!
What the ANALOGY shows us is that you can indeed have 1 thing that consists of 3 parts which are all still 1 thing. I didn't realize this was a Trinitarian debate.lol. But irrationality might be the only response you have for it. What you say is funny, yet you don't go about disproving it other than to say its irrational. Is an egg irrational, and if you say yes, then how so?

 

[Beaudreaux]

The egg thing isn't poetry friend, and if you think it is I'm glad you aren't writing anywhere but here!
What the ANALOGY shows us is that you can indeed have 1 thing that consists of 3 parts which are all still 1 thing. I didn't realize this was a Trinitarian debate.lol. But irrationality might be the only response you have for it. What you say is funny, yet you don't go about disproving it other than to say its irrational. Is an egg irrational, and if you say yes, then how so?

[sigh] I'm going to use all caps in a moment, but I want to explain why first. The dctrine of the Trinity has been around since way before you were born. It does NOT say that God is one thing that can manifest in three forms. THE TRINITY SAYS GOD IS THREE IN ONE. HE IS THREE BEINGS AND HE IS ONE BEING ALL AT tHE SAME TIME. If you don't agree with that concept, then I have bad news for you. You don't believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity.

Do I think an egg is irrational?

 

[Muffled]

the bible is proff that men of old could wright. and thats it, if all othere holy books a crap, then the bible is crap too.

That is like saying that all scientists including Einstein must have been crappy because Newton and many scientists of his time believed in Alchemy.

 

[Muffled]

[sigh] I'm going to use all caps in a moment, but I want to explain why first. The dctrine of the Trinity has been around since way before you were born. It does NOT say that God is one thing that can manifest in three forms. THE TRINITY SAYS GOD IS THREE IN ONE. HE IS THREE BEINGS AND HE IS ONE BEING ALL AT tHE SAME TIME. If you don't agree with that concept, then I have bad news for you. You don't believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity.

Do I think an egg is irrational?

The Doctrine of the Trinity has been around since Athanasius who said that God was one substance not three, so the egg similitude does not fit his view of the Trinity.

I agree that God does not change form; the Bible is clear that He is a spirit and does not even suggest another form. Sabellius doesn't even say that. Sabellius says that God is like an actor on a stage who presents a different persona by the costuming and makeup he wears. The person inside doesn't change just the outer trappings. The fact is that the human body is just the outer trapping for the spirit within. The resurrection tells us that. If God were a body He would have died on the cross never to return but because He is a spirit, He can re-enter the body that was resurrected. Suppose however that you wished to see each body as a person, then there is one person as Jesus for sure but there are millions of bodies ie persons for the Paraclete and the Father has no physical body. (I say that because He does represent himself in the image of a physical person)

 

[Muffled]

The Impersonal Reality is the Force that Moves Us and Through Us. Descriptions I've heard and read of the Holy Spirit match this description.
[/color]


I'm afraid that if you cannot prove this then I am forced to remain in error in your eyes. I've read the several of the Biblical books, and I see nothing to indicate that it is the direct testimony of God; no book I've ever read has felt like that.

Besides, I've never heard of the Bibile.

Such descriptions come from people who have not developed a personal relationship.
They are like a blind person trying to describe a stranger just because he was told he was there. Here is the Biblical proof that the Paraclete (Comforter) is personal:

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come.

You have never read "Thus saith the Lord."? What is it you were looking for that you didn't find? If you are looking for a snake do you look in a bird's nest and say, no I didn't find a snake there so it must not exist? I can identify with the feeling that a book gives. When I read the Vedas I don't get the feeling that God has written them but that they came from man's knowledge. When I read the Qu'ran I do get the feeling that God is speaking. However this feeling is probably grounded in the feeling I get from reading the Bible. So it is quite likely that your feeling is grounded in something.

Mea culpa. Please cut me some slack. My poor typing comes from being in a hurry becuase I have many things to do in a day.

 

[smitten508]

An egg is one substance... It is also three parts. I know the Trinitarian philosophy has been around a while.lol. The trinity is the same substance. If you're not jiving the egg. Let's use breath. Let's say the Breath itself is the Father, the noise we can use it to make is the Son, and the words the 2 form is the holy Spirit. And again, will you try to disprove this? Or are we going to stick to irrationality?lol

 

[sky cake]

but it is irrationality, we are not talking about eggs or water, or breath, because as the christians belive each part tof the trinity is compleetly god. even with your ideal of "breath" you can have breath with out words, and sound, or have words that habe not been made with breath.

you are trying to recensile three things in to one, and that is irrational. when it all comes down to it eather man is mistaken, or the trinity does not matter, because how you describe 3=1 is magic, and really why limmit it to 3, why not belive that god is also mithros, and sheva, and all the other gods, because if god is one but really 3, then god could be anything, and our knollage means nothing.
if god does not have to follow the rules he has set up, then it does not matter that he fathered himself. how can that be wrong for god, impreginate a underaged virgin, that stays a virgin all her life, and then that virgin asscends to heaven too. to set beside jesus, whos to say that marry is not a nother part of god. in the end there is no rasional to magic, no explatation to set it right. so your left to try to explain a big mess. if god wanted it to be explained he would have addressed it, if he wanted it to be confusing that we would let the diffrent denomantaions expain it. oh and then there the thought that it is all man made.

 

[sojourner]

trinity = magic

trinity = mystery. There's a difference.

 

[sojourner]

[sigh] I'm going to use all caps in a moment, but I want to explain why first. The dctrine of the Trinity has been around since way before you were born. It does NOT say that God is one thing that can manifest in three forms. THE TRINITY SAYS GOD IS THREE IN ONE. HE IS THREE BEINGS AND HE IS ONE BEING ALL AT tHE SAME TIME. If you don't agree with that concept, then I have bad news for you. You don't believe in the Doctrine of the Trinity.

Do I think an egg is irrational?

The doctrine actually says that God is one Being in three Persons. There is a subtle difference there. I don't agree with the concept that God is three beings and one being at the same time. I believe the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[sojourner]

but it is irrationality, we are not talking about eggs or water, or breath, because as the christians belive each part tof the trinity is compleetly god. even with your ideal of "breath" you can have breath with out words, and sound, or have words that habe not been made with breath.

you are trying to recensile three things in to one, and that is irrational. when it all comes down to it eather man is mistaken, or the trinity does not matter, because how you describe 3=1 is magic, and really why limmit it to 3, why not belive that god is also mithros, and sheva, and all the other gods, because if god is one but really 3, then god could be anything, and our knollage means nothing.
if god does not have to follow the rules he has set up, then it does not matter that he fathered himself. how can that be wrong for god, impreginate a underaged virgin, that stays a virgin all her life, and then that virgin asscends to heaven too. to set beside jesus, whos to say that marry is not a nother part of god. in the end there is no rasional to magic, no explatation to set it right. so your left to try to explain a big mess. if god wanted it to be explained he would have addressed it, if he wanted it to be confusing that we would let the diffrent denomantaions expain it. oh and then there the thought that it is all man made.

Your attempt to make sense out of the "nonsensical" is ... nonsensical.

 

[hindupridemn]

Jesus was an extraordinary man but just that a man. The Godhead encompasses all. I like frogs.

 

[Beaudreaux]

trinity = mystery. There's a difference.

What's the difference?

 

[Beaudreaux]

Jesus was an extraordinary man but just that a man. The Godhead encompasses all. I like frogs.

I've never heard such drivel! Frogs are disgusting. Who could like them?

 

[Beaudreaux]

The doctrine actually says that God is one Being in three Persons. There is a subtle difference there. I don't agree with the concept that God is three beings and one being at the same time. I believe the doctrine of the Trinity.

Are persons beings?