Is Jesus portrayed in the Gospels as Anti-Torah?

[1213]

Why do you think the early Catholic church considered them heretical and worked hard to have them banned? Also, do you consider them a part of your scripture?

Actually I don't know the official reason. By what I know about them, I don't think they would be necessary, because doesn't bring something important. I think it is good to keep in the Bible only that what is important.

 

[Colt]

Hello,

This question was posed in a recent debate thread, but it deserves it's own thread. @Ehav4Ever asserted that Jesus in the Gospels is anti-Torah. He brought a list of examples. @1213 asked for explanations why these verses describe behavior which is counter to the Hebrew Torah that was given at Sinai per our shared beliefs.

Below is the list of verses which Ehav brought. This is post #203 from the corresponding thread. LINK

Ehav wrote:

Here are a few examples:

• “‘Follow me.’ But the man replied, ‘Lord, first let me go and bury my father.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God’” (Luke 9:59-60).
• Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)
• Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it. (Mark 11:13-14)
• On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple courts and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts.
• John 10:30 “I and the father are one.”
• “Truly[d] I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. (Mark 11:23)
• “So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, him I also will deny before My Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew 10:32-33)
• Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” (Matthew 19:8-9)
• Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Matthew 19:21)
• Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first. (Matthew 19:28-30)

1213 asked for explanation. Here is my reply:

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“‘Follow me.’ But the man replied, ‘Lord, first let me go and bury my father.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God’” (Luke 9:59-60).

The priority is to do our religious duty which God Almighty has commanded. That duty, as written in the Torah, is to bury the dead, not to preach and convert. In order to change this, it would require another event of a magnitude equal or greater than the Exodus from Egypt and the revelation at Sinai.​

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If you can locate something, anything, written in the Torah, which directs, or even implies, that a Jewish person needs to "proclaim the Kingdom of God"? That would be very useful in regard to the argument Ehav is making. I am saying this with nothing but love and affection in my heart.​

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Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

There's several ways to show that this is anti-Torah. The best example, in my opinion, is Hannah. She did not need Christ to come to The Father. But, really, if this statement is true, literally true, then each and every prophet prior to Jesus' earthly ministry are false. That's why this verse is against the Torah. There are 2 ways to reconcile it. ​

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1) It's not literal at all. It's hyperbolic. It's exaggerated for effect.​

2) Jesus is speaking only to the ones which were present in the room and no one else.​

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Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it. (Mark 11:13-14)

This one should be simple. It is prohibited per Moses to destroy a fruit tree out of spite. Deuteronomy 20:19. And I would also argue, it's a very poor example for a minister of God. Leviticus 19:2: "You shall be holy like I, Jehovah, am holy". Destroying the fruit tree? Which God Almighty is blossoming is not holy like Jehovah. It's the opposite.​

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On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple courts and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts.

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I agree this is a grey area. The argument that is made about this, that I am aware of, is: Jesus has become a stumbling block for the blind. That is prohibited. Leviticus 19:14. I think you'll find that there is commentary which flips this into a positive? I'm not sure what you think of that commentary. There is so much variance in the interpretation of the Greek scriptures. Some, I have seen praising Jesus, as the stumbling block for the Jews. They cheer him on. "Yes! There! Jesus is a stumbling block for the Jews!" And they applaud. This is not OK.​

Isaiah? 5:20? "Woe to those who flip-flop" like this. A stumbling block is bitter, not sweet. Being a stumbling block for the Jew? It's anti-Torah.​

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Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Matthew 19:21)

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This is a grey area as well. I understand what is meant by it, but, if it is understood literally? This is witch-craft. They are buying their way into heaven. They are attempting to subvert God's will and replace it with their own. Elsewhere, I hope we agree, Jesus is teaching the the Christian to petition: "THY will be done, heavenly Father". THY will. If this verse is read in isolation or interpreted literally, the aspiring Christian is being lead astray. It stops being a petition for THY will, and it becomes a sort of recipe for MY will to be done. And that is the root of idol worship and witch-craft.​

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Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first. (Matthew 19:28-30)

This one is tricky. The fault is in the middle. "for MY sake". That's a no-no. Leviticus 10:3. Glory goes to Jehovah, ONLY. There's nothing wrong with approaching the Lord, but it must be done in the right way. This is wrong. Verses like this are reasons why people confuse Jesus with God Almighty.​

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1213 replied with some follow up comments and questions. I will reply to those in the following post.

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Not anti-Torah, rather pro-truth. Jesus chooses from among the cream of the spiritual truth of Hebrew scriptures while letting the rest die on the vine. He instructed us NOT to sew the new onto the old but sadly his followers attempted to create a seamless transition. Judaism is largely an evolved, manmade religion centered on one clan of people in the world.

 

[blü 2]

[*]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)
[*]John 10:30 “I and the father are one.”

Perhaps a footnote to this is that only in John and Paul do we find the notion that without Jesus you can't have access to God. In Mark, Matthew and Luke there's nothing of the kind. There you follow Jesus because he's God's envoy, and the emphasis of the message is apocalyptic, with Jesus in each case promising that the Kingdom would be established on earth within the lifetime of some of his hearers. This would be achieved by the Son of Man, who is presented ambiguously in the synoptics, some passages clearly seeming to refer to Jesus, other passages clearly seeming not to. (I understand from, I think, Ehrman, that Enoch was in popular belief at that time the other candidate to be Son of Man, since he lived with God.)

The ideas in John and Paul appear to arise from gnosticism, where God is incredibly remote and incredibly pure spirit, someone who'd never think of creating something as impure as the material world. Hence in John and in Paul Jesus is specified as the creator of the material universe, a bald contradiction of Genesis, and so becomes the link between the material universe here and the incredibly remote God way way over there. The need for and nature of such a bridge is set out perhaps most clearly in John 17.

Culturally Paul and John are thus far more Greek-influenced than Tanakh-influenced in these respects.

 

[dybmh]

Sorry, I don't think it is a viable option, especially if we take into account all that he said.

I might be wrong, but I think you've departed from Luke 9 and you are replacing the words of Jesus with something else because it's more convenient to do so. Friend, the Greek scriptures would be incomplete if any of Jesus' words are neglected, erased, or replaced. I hope we agree on this very important point.

What do you think it the greatest commandment in the law?

It's repeated 7 times.

Per Moses. It's a commandment which includes them all, but does not exclude any. It includes them all, but it does not over-rule any. It includes and it never replaces, never erases. If any of the the other laws, big or small, are neglected, then this law is broken.

Deuteronomy 5:30
Deuteronomy 8:6
Deuteronomy 10:12
Deuteronomy 11:22
Deuteronomy 19:9
Deuteronomy 26:17
Deuteronomy 30:16

Is it not the "love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might"? Wouldn't that mean you do God's will, if asked?

It means that God's will is not replaced by flesh and blood. It means that God's will is not replaced by angels. It means that God's will is not replaced by impulse. It means that God's will is not replaced by temptation or promise for eternal life or any other desire.

Again, the man whom Jesus told to neglect the written law has no reason to believe that Jesus is expressing the will of God. The man was beguiled. Mesmerized. Compelled by the crowd, and the desire to belong. He followed because, everyone else was doing it. That's a terrible idea.

From Jesus' perspective the man is being drawn to the Father, just as Nicodemus was drawn Jesus' quarters. In John 3. Jesus teaches about this "drawing" like a moth to a flame. Like a bear to honey. Jesus interpreted curiosity as a sign that the individual was being drawn to him, and that this, in turn, meant they were being drawn to The Father. But the mistake Jesus was making, is that he did not know, there is another with that name: "The Father". Jesus' knowledge was incomplete. He understood very well, better than most. But he did not see both sides, and that is why he failed.

If the world is ever going to be healed, it's vital:

Stop making the same mistakes over and over and over again. Neglecting any of the Torah is incomplete.

Is it not the "love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might"?

^^ INCOMPLETE ^^

Deuteronomy 30:15-16 ( NWT )

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15: “See, I do put before you today life and good, and death and bad.​

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16: If you listen to the commandments of Jehovah your God that I am commanding you today, by loving Jehovah your God by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his judicial decisions, then you will live and multiply, and Jehovah your God will bless you in the land you are going to possess.​

The complete commandment is:

1. Walk in all of God's ways ( plural )
2. Keep all the commandments
3. Keep all the statutes
4. Keep all the ordinances

"love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might"?

^^ INCOMPLETE ^^

Deuteronomy 11:22

( The NWT from JW.org, is a false translation here, they erased words from the Hebrew Torah. That's a no-no. Deuteronomy 12:32. )

If you strictly observe ALL THESE COMMANDMENTS ( "אֶת־כָּל־הַמִּצְוָ֣ה" ) that I am giving you and you carry it out, to love Jehovah your God, to walk in all his ways and to cling to him...​

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The complete commandment is:

1. Observe all the commandments
2. Walk in all of of Jehovah's ways

they preached that people should be or become righteous

It is not righteous to follow the crowd like a sheep to the slaughter because someone is dangling "eternal life" at them.

Righteous is:

1. Walk in all of God's ways ( plural )
2. Keep all the commandments
3. Keep all the statutes
4. Keep all the ordinances

It's repeated 7 times.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46

Righteous is:

1. Walk in all of God's ways ( plural )
2. Keep all the commandments
3. Keep all the statutes
4. Keep all the ordinances

It's repeated 7 times.

For the wages of sin is death...
Romans 6:23

^^ INCOMPLETE ^^

I think the kingdom is not a pipe dream, I think it is already here, among those who keep Jesus as their king.

It's not described in scripture. If it exists as more than a pipe-dream than show me in scripture what you are talking about. Scripture is the single source for truth in this context. Bring scripture please.

I think Jews should not brake the law in any case. I think that is also what Jesus says.

No. Jesus is saying the law doesn't matter anymore. He is living in a world in his mind where the last chapters of Isaiah are occurring literally and in real time on earth as it is in the heavens. But he was wrong. He thought that everything had been fulfilled already, so when he says: I will not erase until all has been fulfilled, he is not telling them the whole story. He thinks he's being wise, like a serpent, while maintaining plausible deniability. Innocent like a dove. Lying by omission.

Matthew 10:16 - " ... be wise as serpents and innocent as doves."

 

[dybmh]

I don't see how one could say honestly that he doesn't care, when he tells it is valid.

See above. Here's the verse you're referring to. Take note of the qualifications. When is this vow rendered null and void?

Matthew 5:17-18 ( NWT )

17: “Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill. 18: Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one stroke of a letter to pass away from the Law until all things take place.​

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If heaven and earth pass away, the vow is null and void.
If all things have taken place, the vow is null and void.

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One thing that people don't understand about scripture prophecy and prophets is that they're consciousness, their awareness, is not like normal people's awareness. It's granted that they're different. But people don't understand it. Possibly the most important thing to keep in mind when considering the words of prophecy is that time does not flow in the heavens like it does on earth. Let me explain, because, Jesus wasn't wrong. He simply had his head in the clouds, but he didn't have his feet planted firmly on the earth.

Time on earth flows sequentially. One event follows the previous event which follows the previous event which follows the previous event in a linear chain of causes and effects. The easiest way to visualize this, is by imaging a deck of cards. Each event is one of the cards in the deck. The cards, the events, are lined up, one after another, in a nice, neat, and orderly line: Ace, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, Jack, Queen, King. In the heavens, time is not flowing like that. In the heavens all the events are gathered together and stacked up in one pile, if one were to visit the heavens, they would need to be very strong to ignore all the events which are occurring at the same time and retain their composure to focus.

Can you imagine it? The profound difference? Here on earth, the human mind is accustomed to a linear chain of events. We see things and experience things, one event at a time. That's like a looking at each card in a deck, one card at a time, and in sequence. In the heavens, all events are concurrent and omnipresent. That is like gathering the deck of cards, shuffling them, and looking at all of them at the same time. But, it gets worse. In the heavens, there is not only events which will-be and won't-be ( foreknowledge ). There are also events which could-be. If a prophet, cannot accurately discern and distinguish between the will-be/won't-be events and the could-be events, they are a false prophet. It happens.

The way to make the distinction is to map out the chains that link the events and then locate where, when, and how they terminate on earth. Jesus had his head in the clouds, which is fine. But he did not have his feet firmly planted on the earth. Because of this, what he was experiencing in his mind was a future could-be scenario where the the heavens and the earth had passed away and all things had taken place. In the heavens? All things have taken place. Literally. And that's where Jesus was. He was in the heavens. God bless him. All things had already happened. There was no flowing of time. Everything, in his awareness, was omnipresent and concurrent. But he got lost, and he never returned to earth.

That, friend, is how to reconcile what Jesus is quoted as saying in Matthew 5, with his very clear neglect of the law throughout his ministry on earth.

 

[dybmh]

Perhaps a footnote to this is that only in John and Paul do we find the notion that without Jesus you can't have access to God. In Mark, Matthew and Luke there's nothing of the kind. There you follow Jesus because he's God's envoy,

I respectfully disagree. It's easily reconciled: One cannot have access to God without his envoy. It's the same message. The story of Hannah defeats it, among many others. The envoy might be needed for some, and might not be needed for others is the Torah. Everyone must have an envoy is Christianity.

 

[dybmh]

Not anti-Torah, rather pro-truth.

It's an incomplete truth. Otherwise known as a half-truth.

Jesus chooses from among the cream

Ignoring all but the cream is ... incomplete truth.

while letting the rest die on the vine

That's cruel to the rest of the vine. God created the vine. God wanted them to die? That's cruel to create a vine just to kill it.

He instructed us NOT to sew the new onto the old but sadly his followers attempted to create a seamless transition.

You dislike inclusion. You are comforted by psychological splitting? Black and white thinking. Harsh dichotomies. That's anti-Torah. It's the opposite of the written Torah's teachings. And, it encourages addictive behaviors. If the mind needs harsh black-white dichotomies, then it will be very uncomfortable walking and talking and operating in society where harsh black-white dichotomies are rare. Almost everything operates on a spectrum. So, the individual will crave escaping. They'll need it. They won't be able to live without their fix, because it's a reliable method for escaping the discomfort from operating an a techi-color reality. Their mind is at peace only if there is a harsh-black and white reality with a clear enemy to blame.

 

[Colt]

It's an incomplete truth. Otherwise known as a half-truth.



Ignoring all but the cream is ... incomplete truth.



That's cruel to the rest of the vine. God created the vine. God wanted them to die? That's cruel to create a vine just to kill it.



You dislike inclusion. You are comforted by psychological splitting? Black and white thinking. Harsh dichotomies. That's anti-Torah. It's the opposite of the written Torah's teachings. And, it encourages addictive behaviors. If the mind needs harsh black-white dichotomies, then it will be very uncomfortable walking and talking and operating in society where harsh black-white dichotomies are rare. Almost everything operates on a spectrum. So, the individual will crave escaping. They'll need it. They won't be able to live without their fix, because it's a reliable method for escaping the discomfort from operating an a techi-color reality. Their mind is at peace only if there is a harsh-black and white reality with a clear enemy to blame.

View attachment 94645

The teachings of Jesus were intended for ALL the world not a self described chosen few or a chosen nation. I believe the Torah to be a wildly exaggerated history intended for an Israelite audience after the first Temple was destroyed along with the national sovereignty of Israel. The revisions and additions were finalized in Babylon 1000+ years after Moses lived.

 

[dybmh]

The teachings of Jesus were intended for ALL the world

That's not what you said previously. Jesus was only interested in the cream and the rest he left to die on the vine.

 

[Colt]

That's not what you said previously. Jesus was only interested in the cream and the rest he left to die on the vine.

The cream of the “Hebrew scripture” not people dying on the vine! Jesus knew that much of the scripture reflects the thinking of those who wrote them.

 

[dybmh]

The cream of the “Hebrew scripture” not people dying on the vine! Jesus knew that much of the scripture reflects the thinking of those who wrote them.

It's a slippery slope. A better analogy?

Jesus is walking a tight-rope. One false move? Down down down into a net. Maybe Jesus can navigate the ordeal safely? Maybe. The rest of us? Doubt it. It's a very precarious position to skim the cream off the top and let the rest die. That's dangerous with a capital 'D'.

 

[Colt]

It's a slippery slope. A better analogy?

Jesus is walking a tight-rope. One false move? Down down down into a net. Maybe Jesus can navigate the ordeal safely? Maybe. The rest of us? Doubt it. It's a very precarious position to skim the cream off the top and let the rest die. That's dangerous with a capital 'D'.

He was divinely brilliant! But the scriptures are still there…..

 

[blü 2]

I respectfully disagree. It's easily reconciled: One cannot have access to God without his envoy. It's the same message. The story of Hannah defeats it, among many others. The envoy might be needed for some, and might not be needed for others is the Torah. Everyone must have an envoy is Christianity.

We must cordially agree to disagree then. It seems self-evident to me that the only result of trying to make a single Jesus out of the five versions of Jesus in the NT is a sixth version of Jesus that (like the others) disagrees in places with all the rest. I gave a vivid example here >Historical Case for the Resurrection of Jesus<.

And I think it's a fair and relevant conclusion that Paul and the author of John ascribed to Jesus the gnostic traits I mentioned, which aren't found in the synoptics, not least but not only because those are the only two versions of Jesus that pre-existed in heaven with God and created the material universe (in contradiction of Genesis).

 

[dybmh]

trying to make a single Jesus

That's one way of putting it.

 

[dybmh]

the only two versions of Jesus that pre-existed

The only 2 versions that pre-existed? If God is absolutely literally infinite...

On second thought, nevermind.

 

[blü 2]

The only 2 versions that pre-existed? If God is absolutely literally infinite...

On second thought, nevermind.

Simply that Mark's Jesus was an ordinary Jewish citizen until his adoption, and there's no hint that the Jesus of Matthew or the Jesus of Luke existed in any form before their conception.

 

[GoodAttention]

See above. Here's the verse you're referring to. Take note of the qualifications. When is this vow rendered null and void?

Matthew 5:17-18 ( NWT )

17: “Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill.​

Looking at Jesus objectively, what did he fulfill at the time?

Did he set a path to allow the gentiles to become more righteous by adhering to the Noahide Laws for example?

18: Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter​

Is one smallest letter the oral Torah that informs us

or one stroke of a letter to pass away from the Law until all things take place.​

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If heaven and earth pass away, the vow is null and void.
If all things have taken place, the vow is null and void.

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In conjunction with the written Torah that explains to us what the Noahide laws are, and how Rome, Greece, and others were not even close in their holding of it?

How could any Roman or Greek gentile of the time ever have a place in Olam Ha-Ba?

It was the duty of the Jews that listened and understood Jesus to explain to their gentile neighbours, whom they should love as themselves, the glory of the (true) God and the path to a world to come.

I will say this to the Jewish people, you have you Laws and commandments, but the Noahide Laws which exist are not for you to adhere or uphold. You can interpret them as you do, but a gentile is ultimately responsible for any "idolatry" or "strange worship" they conduct.

Personally, I believe the "worship" and steadfast belief that the Egyptian Pharaoh was a living God is the only form of idolatry that should be condemned.

 

[dybmh]

Looking at Jesus objectively, what did he fulfill at the time?

There are a few general prophecies that maybe could be considered fulfilled. The bar is rather low on some of those.

Example: "in the wording of Maimonides): "he will wage the battles of G‑d and succeed." - LINK

Did he set a path to allow the gentiles to become more righteous by adhering to the Noahide Laws for example?

For some? Sure. But if they believe that Jesus is God incarnate, they've broken the Noahide law. So, I would ask you, which is more important: publicizing the the Noahide law, giving the gentiles a path or avoiding idol worship which is itself part of the Noahide law?

Is one smallest letter the oral Torah that informs us

No. Technically the oral Torah has no letters. So the vow in Matt 5 does not apply to the unwritten Torah.

In conjunction with the written Torah that explains to us what the Noahide laws are, and how Rome, Greece, and others were not even close in their holding of it?

Sorry, I don't know. What about the disciples of Pythagoras and others like him? They might have been close?

How could any Roman or Greek gentile of the time ever have a place in Olam Ha-Ba?

1. Follow the law for rational reasons
2. God contacts them, but, it's not recorded in the Hebrew scripture

It was the duty of the Jews that listened and understood Jesus to explain to their gentile neighbours, whom they should love as themselves, the glory of the (true) God and the path to a world to come.

Agreed. Good point.

I will say this to the Jewish people, you have you Laws and commandments, but the Noahide Laws which exist are not for you to adhere or uphold. You can interpret them as you do, but a gentile is ultimately responsible for any "idolatry" or "strange worship" they conduct.

In the land of Israel, we're commanded to knock down the idols which are there. ( Deut 7:5 )

Personally, I believe the "worship" and steadfast belief that the Egyptian Pharaoh was a living God is the only form of idolatry that should be condemned.

That's the extreme case, but, all idol worship leads to that eventually. We would need to rigorously define idol worship. And I think a good way to do that is to look at this extreme example and work backwards, reverse engineering it.

 

[GoodAttention]

There are a few general prophecies that maybe could be considered fulfilled. The bar is rather low on some of those.

I wrote that incorrectly, I did not mean fulfilling prophecy, but what happened as a result of him.

For some? Sure. But if they believe that Jesus is God incarnate, they've broken the Noahide law. So, I would ask you, which is more important: publicizing the the Noahide law, giving the gentiles a path or avoiding idol worship which is itself part of the Noahide law?

I think we can argue whether this happens pre or post Nicene creed and what is idol worship.

No. Technically the oral Torah has no letters. So the vow in Matt 5 does not apply to the unwritten Torah.

Failed attempt at reconciling, but I did learn now the oral Torah has no letters.

Sorry, I don't know. What about the disciples of Pythagoras and others like him? They might have been close?

I think a more general populace understanding of the Noahide Laws would have come from the translating of the Hebrew scriptures into the Septuagint.

1. Follow the law for rational reasons
2. God contacts them, but, it's not recorded in the Hebrew scripture

That's the extreme case, but, all idol worship leads to that eventually. We would need to rigorously define idol worship. And I think a good way to do that is to look at this extreme example and work backwards, reverse engineering it.

Is the Noahide law regarding idolatry written the same as the commandment?

 

[1213]

....
It means that God's will is not replaced by flesh and blood.

In Bible love God means you keep His commandments.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

So I agree with you. But, I would say, it means that one does God's will and if God asks one to do something, that is not against the commandments, person who loves God, will do it.

I don't think Jesus asked anyone to neglect the God's commandments. All God's commandments are good, no good reason to abolish them.