-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Is Jesus portrayed in the Gospels as Anti-Torah?
- Thread starter dybmh
- Start date
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Ah. Then no. Jesus did not accomplish any of necessary tasks of the Jewish Moshiach:
- Anointed as King with oil per Torah law from the hand of a verifiable prophet or an ordained religious court.
- Serves as King over the entire Jewish nation gathered in Eretz Yisrael from the physical temple rebuilt and operating per Torah law as it was in the times of King Solomon.
- Inspires all Jews to follow Torah law and engage in their religious duties.
Agreed. 100%. My first teacher when I became religious, over 20 years ago, told me a story. He was on a long flight, and as it happens often on these flights, dressed as he does, he had a really wonderful conversation with the individuals who was seated next to him. One of the questions they asked him was about Jesus whether it was idol worship. His answer: "It depends" Classic answer for almost any question in a Jewish context. It depends on what is idol worship. It depends on what is happening in the heart and mind of the Christian.
If the individual believes that Jesus is God incarnate: God is contained in the flesh of Jesus? That is heresy according to the Torah. If they worship this God incarnating in flesh and blood and bone and brain, that is idol worship. OTOH, If in their heart and mind, God is taking a limited, incomplete, and imperfect form and is revealing itself to the petitioner in this form? That's probably not idol worship. Further, each and everything that I see, hear, smell, taste, and touch is a revelation of the divine will. So, how can I judge anyone harshly for looking towards Jesus or anything or anyone as an expression of God's will which is teaching important lessons for that individual at that time and place?
Sorry that I failed, if that's what you meant.
Jesus is quoted: "And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world." John 8. That's the key to reconciling Jesus' vow in Matthew 5 with the rest of the clearly lawless behavior ( the "lord of the sabbath", Matthew 12, is the best example ).
It's a very complicated concept. It's very difficult to explain. One needs to understand the difference between existing on the world below, and ... not. The difference between existing in the heavens and existing on the earth. Once that is understood, clearly understood, Matthew 5 can be reconciled with the rest of the Gospels without any heartburn or confusion. It all fits: hand-in-glove.
Written...
The Noahide laws are derived from the stories in Genesis. Excluding the prohibition on animal cruelty and maybe murder, none of them are explicitly written.
GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
No I failed. I thought Jesus was talking specifically about oral and written Torah but you corrected me.Sorry that I failed, if that's what you meant.
On the list now ..
Understood.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
You didn't fail. We're a team! We're working together. It's good to rule out the oral law. I'm glad you brought it up.
Do you understand what I wrote? About the difference between experiencing events as they are occurring on a time-line which is flowing ( on earth ) compared to experiencing all events, including the could-be events, which are concurrent and omnipresent ( in the "heavens", beyond the material realm ) ? That prophecy requires bringing down those "could-be events" to see where they "land" here-and-now?
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
What's the first step in keeping any commandment? This is very important. Refer to Joshua 1:8.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
What's the first step in neglecting a commandment? This is very important. Refer to Joshua 1:8.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
It's written in the Hebrew in the Torah. Genesis 1:1 Psalms 119:89 and other places. You need to read it in the original language. In Genesis 1:1, go word by word, and look for a word that is skipped in the English translation. Two words, actually. They're written twice and skipped twice.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
We can agree on that
I really am your friend. I promise. We're on the same team.
But Jesus, foreseeing that the disciple's return to his house would throw him into serious inheritance care and controversy, which would cool his jealousy, said to him: Follow me and leave your relatives, who seem to be alive, but really because of their unbelief they are spiritually dead, to bury their own dead, because they also died in unbelief spiritually.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Hi Nick, welcome to the forum. Welcome to the debate.
What if I grant you this one? I concede. You're right. Luke 9? Not anti-Torah. Have you looked at any of the other examples that were brought?
Here's a link to the list of examples where, I propose, the Gospels describe Jesus as Anti-Torah. LINK
Thank you,
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Is Jesus portrayed in the Gospels as Anti-Torah?
(Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah in First Coming was a follower of Moses in deeds as well as his teachings as his mother innocent Mary was, please, right?
Regards
(Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah in First Coming was a follower of Moses in deeds as well as his teachings as his mother innocent Mary was, please, right?
Regards
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Wrong. Jesus cannot be the Jewish Messiah. He is something else.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Is Jesus portrayed in the Gospels as Anti-Torah?
(Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah in First Coming was a follower of Moses in deeds as well as his teachings as his mother innocent Mary was, please, right?
Regards
(Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah in First Coming was a follower of Moses in deeds as well as his teachings as his mother innocent Mary was, please, right?
He ,Yeshua son of Mary was the truthful Israelite Messiah, those who were truthfully Israelites did accept him, those who preferred to be identified as off-spring of Judah (aka Jews) did oppose him, right, please?
Regards
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
By whose standards?
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Is Jesus portrayed in the Gospels as Anti-Torah?
(Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah in First Coming was a follower of Moses in deeds as well as his teachings as his mother innocent Mary was, please, right?
61:15
O ye who believe! be helpers of Allah, as said Jesus, son of Mary, to his disciples, ‘Who are my helpers in the cause of Allah.’ The disciples said, ‘We are helpers of Allah.’ *So a party of the children of Israel believed, **while a party disbelieved. Then We gave power to those who believed against their enemy, and they became victorious.
www.alislam.org
Regards
_________________
61:15
یٰۤاَیُّہَا الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡا کُوۡنُوۡۤا اَنۡصَارَ اللّٰہِ کَمَا قَالَ عِیۡسَی ابۡنُ مَرۡیَمَ لِلۡحَوَارِیّٖنَ مَنۡ اَنۡصَارِیۡۤ اِلَی اللّٰہِ ؕ قَالَ الۡحَوَارِیُّوۡنَ نَحۡنُ اَنۡصَارُ اللّٰہِ فَاٰمَنَتۡ طَّآئِفَۃٌ مِّنۡۢ بَنِیۡۤ اِسۡرَآءِیۡلَ وَکَفَرَتۡ طَّآئِفَۃٌ ۚ فَاَیَّدۡنَا الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡا عَلٰی عَدُوِّہِمۡ فَاَصۡبَحُوۡا ظٰہِرِیۡنَ ﴿٪۱۵
(Jesus)Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah in First Coming was a follower of Moses in deeds as well as his teachings as his mother innocent Mary was, please, right?
Yes, Yeshua son of Mary was the truthful Israelite Messiah, those* who were truthfully Israelites did accept him, those** who preferred to be identified as off-spring of Judah (aka Jews) did oppose him, right, please?
61:15
O ye who believe! be helpers of Allah, as said Jesus, son of Mary, to his disciples, ‘Who are my helpers in the cause of Allah.’ The disciples said, ‘We are helpers of Allah.’ *So a party of the children of Israel believed, **while a party disbelieved. Then We gave power to those who believed against their enemy, and they became victorious.
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search
In Arabic, Chinese, English, French, German, Italian, Spanish and Urdu.
Regards
_________________
61:15
یٰۤاَیُّہَا الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡا کُوۡنُوۡۤا اَنۡصَارَ اللّٰہِ کَمَا قَالَ عِیۡسَی ابۡنُ مَرۡیَمَ لِلۡحَوَارِیّٖنَ مَنۡ اَنۡصَارِیۡۤ اِلَی اللّٰہِ ؕ قَالَ الۡحَوَارِیُّوۡنَ نَحۡنُ اَنۡصَارُ اللّٰہِ فَاٰمَنَتۡ طَّآئِفَۃٌ مِّنۡۢ بَنِیۡۤ اِسۡرَآءِیۡلَ وَکَفَرَتۡ طَّآئِفَۃٌ ۚ فَاَیَّدۡنَا الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡا عَلٰی عَدُوِّہِمۡ فَاَصۡبَحُوۡا ظٰہِرِیۡنَ ﴿٪۱۵
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
part right, part wrong.
Jesus probably followed Moses' deeds as well as his teachings to a degree.
Jesus was not the Israelite Messiah, because, he did not meet the requirements for that title.
Yeah "Follow me .. I will Follow You" from Genesis .. after Peter left and Philip took over.
"Jesus" .. aka "HeyZeus" is depicted as "uber" anti-Torah - rejecting both the Convenant and the Commands of the Jealous OT overlord .. this should be obvious to all followers of Jesus .. who does not know which Path Jesus choses A) Stone the Adulterous whore B) Let ye who is without sin .. cast first rock
and to sink the pink on the rejection scale ... claims that this rejection "Sums up the Law and the Prophets" da whole Torah .. standing on one foot .. don't do to others what you hate ... now go and learn.
"So it is written - So it shall be done"
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
There is absolutely no etymological connection between Jesus and Zeus. Thus I assume you are just saying this to poke at Christians.
Don't recall saying there was ? .. and you know what they say about assumptions and strawman fallacy --- although there is a connection between Zeus and EL - Both Chief of the Gods .. both head of the "Divine Council " "God Most High" sort of thing .. you know "The Father" Jesus is referring to in "Our Father" .. Hallowed be thy name .. that you have obviously yet to figure out Right !
So you don't know the name of the God of Jesus .. presumably your god or are you on one of those pretend Christians .. pretending to be a follower of Jesus .. poking fun at Christians and christianity in doing so .. and Jesus
Does the Trinity not state that Jesus is "The Father" ? since the father is Zeus .. Hey Zeus .. could be on obvious posibility..
Or -- it could be a representation of the Son Usurping the Father .. as was the case for YHWH .. Usurping the Position of EL as Chief God on Earth .. El still heading up the divine council in the heavens .. "Our Father .. who art in Heaven"
Pick either one .. HeyZeus could fit the bill . I like the term because of the latinized pronunciation of the name Jesus .. sound it out with me .. Hey - Zeus ..
When you *** - u - me