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Is Jesus responsible for what Paul said?

Avoice1C

the means are the ends
Jesus was Jewish, in the Roman empire. "Made eunuchs," as referred to in the scriptures, are men who were castrated. What we're talking about are "natural-born eunuchs" or "eunuchs from their mother's womb." There were differnt types. Everything you are quoting refers to made eunuchs. Here are some things to show what I mean.

We are talking about this verse specifically --
“Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.” (Matthew 19:11-12)

So those who made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven didn't actually castrate themselves, they were celibate. Jesus still refers to them as eunuchs. Why? Because he's talking about the three types of people who should not marry women.

So what about born eunuchs? Well, Jewish culture at the time, as evidenced by Rabbi Eliezer, felt that these were specifically overly feminine gay men. We actually see this in the Talmud, so we know for a fact that Jewish people knew and used the term. So, Jesus would know the term. They discuss it in the Talmud in reference to a levirate marriage. According to the Talmud, a made eunuch must go through a shaming ceremony if he cannot fulfill his levirate marriage, but a eunuch-by-nature does not.

" A eunuch-by-nature neither submits to chalitsah nor is chalitsah arranged for his wife, since there never was a time when he was fit." Rabbi Akibah says this much.

Rabbi Eliezer disagreed and said, like many erroneously do now, that eunuchs-by-nature could be cured. "Not so, but a eunuch-by-nature submits to chalitsah and chalitsah is also arranged for his wife, because he may be cured. A man-made eunuch neither submits to chalitsah nor is chalitsah arranged for his wife, since he cannot be cured."

So, obviously Jesus knew the term, and knew what it meant. It was clearly in the Talmud. It was also a large part of Roman law, and Jesus lived in the Roman Empire.
In Lex Julia et Papia, Book 1, a book of Roman law, it states: "Eunuch is a general designation: the term includes those who are eunuchs by nature, the crushed and the pounded, as well as any other kind of eunuch," So there were three kinds, only one of which your references are talking about.
Continuing in the law books... later it gives lists of who can determine an heir not of their body. (D 28.2.6) says that someone who cannot easily procreate is nonetheless entitled to institute a posthumous heir, but it gives no concrete examples of such a man. it states separately that the "natural born eunuch" holds this right as well, while "castrated men" expressly do not.

So yes, Jesus talked about gay men, and he never condemned them. All he ever says is that they're not to marry women.
Isa 56:4 For here is what Adonai says: "As for the eunuchs who keep my Shabbats, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant:
Isa 56:5 in my house, within my walls, I will give them power and a name greater than sons and daughters; I will give him an everlasting name that will not be cut off.

Not everything is about made eunuchs. Isa_56:4 is about all three of them. The key for all three is that they refrain from sex and other sins. A gay man may not lay with another gay man or a woman. He must remain celibate. There is a law about spilling semen too. Therefore, he must never reach orgasm unless in his sleep, as I understand it.

While the Bible also says: Deu_23:2 "A man with crushed or damaged private parts may not enter the assembly of Adonai. Isa_56:4 shows a greater understanding of eunuch. And it was not Roman in nature. Jesus spoke from the Isaiah Scripture, not from Roman understanding. IMO. Matthew 19:11-12 says nothing about marrying in either case. The Isaiah 56:4 scripture governs in that case. IMHO

Does this sentence mean a natural eunuch may marry a woman according to the Talmud?

" A eunuch-by-nature neither submits to chalitsah nor is chalitsah arranged for his wife, since there never was a time when he was fit." Rabbi Akibah says this much.
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
We have lot of evidence:
- Orogenic mountains
- vast sediment formations
- Marine fossils on high mountains
- oil and gas fields (results of vast amount of dying organic material)
- Old coast lines
- Continents

Here are few pictures that show the principle how it happened:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/geology.html



You probably think so, because you don’t understand how it happened. When you understand it correctly, you can see that there is no evidence against it.

You have my deepest sympathy. You have been conned by scoundrels.

One has only to read the statements of faith subscribed to by proponents of creationism to see that they are admitted liars.
 

Gallowglass

Member
Isa 56:4 For here is what Adonai says: "As for the eunuchs who keep my Shabbats, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant:
Isa 56:5 in my house, within my walls, I will give them power and a name greater than sons and daughters; I will give him an everlasting name that will not be cut off.

Not everything is about made eunuchs. Isa_56:4 is about all three of them. The key for all three is that they refrain from sex and other sins. A gay man may not lay with another gay man or a woman. He must remain celibate. There is a law about spilling semen too. Therefore, he must never reach orgasm unless in his sleep, as I understand it.

While the Bible also says: Deu_23:2 "A man with crushed or damaged private parts may not enter the assembly of Adonai. Isa_56:4 shows a greater understanding of eunuch. And it was not Roman in nature. Jesus spoke from the Isaiah Scripture, not from Roman understanding. IMO. Matthew 19:11-12 says nothing about marrying in either case. The Isaiah 56:4 scripture governs in that case. IMHO

Does this sentence mean a natural eunuch may marry a woman according to the Talmud?

" A eunuch-by-nature neither submits to chalitsah nor is chalitsah arranged for his wife, since there never was a time when he was fit." Rabbi Akibah says this much.

Also, Isaiah does not say he must remain celibate. According to the law, what is forbidden between two men is anal sex, because it is seen as a "laying with a man, as you would with a woman." There is even an argument that this refers only to the classic "missionary" position. It is a matter of debate given the wording. I go with the slightly more conservative view.

The quote from Akibah is referencing a levirate marriage, where according to Jewish law, a man had to marry his brother's widow. According to the law, the marriage was required.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Hi......
Well, you answered your own question, saying that Paul never knew Jesus, and never bothered to mention anything about his life of mission, no stories, no anecdotes, no examples.

The fact that Paul was a contract breaking renegade doesn't say much for his integrity either. :D

Nope........ Paul didn't write about anything that Jesus the man stood for, imo.
Thanks for agreeing with me.
Regards
 

Jedster

Flying through space
What does one mean from Jesus cringe, please?
Regards

Picture a cringe (hit the reply button to see picture)

images
 

1213

Well-Known Member
You have been conned by scoundrels.

What I said is based on the Bible teachings and on the findings that scientists have made. So, if mountains, oil and gas fields… …are real, I don’t think I have been conned. :D
 

1213

Well-Known Member
All of that is evidence against the flood

I think that is not reasonable claim. Please explain how the things that we should find, if there as the flood, would be against the flood?

We know how mountains formed. We know how sediments were deposited. We know how fossils got on top of mountains.

No, you believe how it happened, you don’t know. And I think your belief is not correct not reasonable.

Oil and gas fields are not from just any "organic matter" they are from organic matter that could not have formed from the flood

Please explain why?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I think that is not reasonable claim. Please explain how the things that we should find, if there as the flood, would be against the flood?

If there was a flood there should be only one thin layer of fossilized life all mixed up. That is not what we see. We find far too much fossilized life in specific order. Down to the microscopic level. Massive floods do not sort in that fashion.


No, you believe how it happened, you don’t know. And I think your belief is not correct not reasonable.

Wrong again, I know. I can explain why what I know is right. All you have is a poor understanding at best. Your claims about specific events such as the Adam and Eve myth can be shown to be wrong.




Please explain why?[/QUOTE]

They are formed from algae and other single celled life. If you want to learn there are threads for that. This topic is far off subject for this thread.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
What I said is based on the Bible teachings and on the findings that scientists have made. So, if mountains, oil and gas fields… …are real, I don’t think I have been conned. :D
Nope, you have been lied to by creationist sites. Why not learn some real science? To even work at a creationist site "scientists" have to swear not to use the scientific method.
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
What I said is based on the Bible teachings and on the findings that scientists have made. So, if mountains, oil and gas fields… …are real, I don’t think I have been conned. :D

Sure, they are real. It is the understanding of them that matters. I think that the results of careful work by thousands of scientists is preferable to the scribblings of ignorant savages and to the scams of professional liars.

You have been had. That can happen to anyone. The honest thing to do is to admit the deceit and try to be more careful in future.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...You have been had. That can happen to anyone. The honest thing to do is to admit the deceit and try to be more careful in future.

Sorry, I don’t see any reason to believe you. Instead, it seems you are lying with that baseless claim.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
If there was a flood there should be only one thin layer of fossilized life all mixed up. That is not what we see. We find far too much fossilized life in specific order. Down to the microscopic level. Massive floods do not sort in that fashion.

Why expect thin layer, if all land animals are drowned? I would expect very thick layer, especially in certain areas, not all over the planet. Reason why it would have been sorted as we can observe nowadays is that the flood happened like this:

1) There was only on continent before the flood.
2) The one continent was supported on top of vast water storage.
3) When the flood came, it happened, because the single continent as broken and collapsed and sunk.
4) Now, when the continents sunk, flooding water carried sediments and dead organic materials to certain places and collected them.
5) Animals were drowned on the order that came from their ability to escape the flood and on how they drown. Certain animals, like advanced mammals float often, after they have drowned. And some animals, like simple organisms drown instantly to lower sediments, because they are not as agile and they don’t float. This is why the order that looks like evolutionary order.

Here is more accurate description of the event:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/geology.html

Wrong again, I know. I can explain why what I know is right. All you have is a poor understanding at best. Your claims about specific events such as the Adam and Eve myth can be shown to be wrong.

I believe when I see that. I don’t believe you can show it to be wrong. :)
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Why expect thin layer, if all land animals are drowned? I would expect very thick layer, especially in certain areas, not all over the planet. Reason why it would have been sorted as we can observe nowadays is that the flood happened like this:

Because at any one time only rather few animals can exist. Go out to the country and look how sparse life is even on a farm.

1) There was only on continent before the flood.

This is wrong. The continents were last together about 200 million years ago.

2) The one continent was supported on top of vast water storage.

Now you are just being silly.

3) When the flood came, it happened, because the single continent as broken and collapsed and sunk.
4) Now, when the continents sunk, flooding water carried sediments and dead organic materials to certain places and collected them.
5) Animals were drowned on the order that came from their ability to escape the flood and on how they drown. Certain animals, like advanced mammals float often, after they have drowned. And some animals, like simple organisms drown instantly to lower sediments, because they are not as agile and they don’t float. This is why the order that looks like evolutionary order.

Here is more accurate description of the event:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/geology.html



I believe when I see that. I don’t believe you can show it to be wrong. :)

You need a real source, not a site written by ignorant fools that can only fool the ignorant.

Do you want a serious discussion or are you going to play make believe?
 
Science is all about making money. They will withhold any information to get more funding.

Especially in evolution, this has happened throughout the development, changing, molding and inventing of the evolution theory. Every few years, decade or two they completely change all of the numbers and modify the Evolutionary theoretical claims, in order cause the competition itself to create new numbers and a new set of data - instead of allowing the numbers and set of data to create fair competition in the field. There is always a unanimous consensus of a science community to avow to the new set of claims and numbers and so-called " facts " of evolution

If You want to see a contradiction, disagreement, and manipulation and evolving facts - take a look at the evolutionary science.

The only thing that has evolved - is the artificer creators and inventors theory of the religion of evolution.
 
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