Is Mormonism compatible with the Bible?

[idea]

This verse has been so taken out of context and twisted by those who want to believe Satan's lie and be gods themselves.

It states:
I said, “You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High.

The content is "how could you have sunk so low, when you are children of God? when ye could have become gods?"

Psalms 82 is not the only place this idea appears.

(Topical Guide | M Man, Potential to Become like Heavenly Father:Entry)
Man, Potential to Become like Heavenly Father (see also Father; Immortality; Perfection)
Gen. 1:26 (Moses 2:26) let them have dominion
Gen. 3:22 (Moses 4:28) man is become as one of us
Lev. 19:2 (1 Pet. 1:16) be holy: for I ... am holy
Ps. 8:5 thou hast made him a little lower than the angels
Ps. 8:6 madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands
Ps. 82:6 ye are gods, and all of you are children of the most High
Matt. 5:48 (3 Ne. 12:48) Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father
Luke 24:39 spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have
John 10:34 (Ps. 82:1–8; D&C 76:58) Is it not written in your law ... Ye are gods
Acts 17:29 we are the offspring of God
Rom. 8:17 heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ
2 Cor. 3:18 changed into the same image from glory to glory
Gal. 4:7 if a son, then an heir of God through Christ
Eph. 4:13 Till we all come ... unto a perfect man
Heb. 12:9 be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live
1 Jn. 3:2 when he shall appear, we shall be like him
Rev. 3:21 him that overcometh will ... sit with me in my throne


“If there lurks in most modern minds the notion that to desire our own good and earnestly to hope for the enjoyment of it is a bad thing, I submit that this notion has crept in from Kant and the Stoics and is not part of the Christian faith.
Indeed, if we consider the unblushing promises of reward and the staggering nature of the rewards promised in the Gospels, it would seem that Our Lord finds our desires, not too strong, but too weak.
We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.”
- C. S. Lewis in “The Weight of Glory

One becomes a child of God through faith in Jesus Christ and receiving Him as their Savior (But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:12-13) All who do so are adopted into God's family and call Him Father: For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” Romans 8:15 and Romans 8:23;9:4; Galatians 4:5;Ephesians 1:5.

Then we pretty much agree with one another. Some Christians think that God made their spirits, but Mormons do not believe this - we believe that our spirit is eternal:

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:29 - 31)
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

Because we do not believe that we were ex-Nihlo created by God, we agree with those in the NT who suggest that it is through something akin to adoption that we become part of God's family.

Here are some scriptures about our spirits before they were born onto Earth:
(Topical Guide | M Man, Antemortal Existence of:Entry)

Man, Antemortal Existence of (see also Council in Heaven; Foreordination; Man, Spirit Child of Heavenly Father; Spirit Creation)
Num. 16:22 (27:16) God of the spirits of all flesh
Job 38:7 all the sons of God shouted for joy
Eccl. 12:7 the spirit shall return unto God who gave it (return means to go back to a place we were previously at)
Jer. 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee
Zech. 12:1 Lord ... formeth the spirit of man within him
John 9:2 who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind (apostles believed this man had the ability to sin before he was born)
Acts 17:28 poets have said, For we are also his offspring
Rom. 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate
Eph. 1:4 chosen us in him before the foundation of the world (He knew us before the world was formed)
Heb. 12:9 subjection unto the Father of spirits
Jude 1:6 angels which kept not their first estate
Rev. 12:7 Michael and his angels fought against the dragon (war in heaven before we came to earth, where some spirits chose to follow Satan rather than God)

 

[Ingledsva]

Lots of Mormons study at BYU! My friend is there right now!

And for every young man after high school, missions is a sacred duty, and they are strongly encouraged to go on their mission for two years of their lives. Young women are not as pressured but may choose to go as well. Young women used to have to wait until 20, but that has lowered to 18 just recently.

Thus, since every good male member of the Church go on missions, it's kind of not surprising. My friend did his in Toronto (as a man from my province in Canada, lol).

Hello, Yep I know several people on missions right now and one in BYU. I was suprised about his choice, but to each his own.

 

[Ingledsva]

you freely admit you are guessing and still insist that you are right and all that disagree are wrong?

This is getting silly - I gave the page and verse numbers from the document choices she asked for!!!!

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[McBell]

This is getting silly - I gave the page and verse numbers from the document choices she asked for!!!!

*

You forgot to answer the question:

you freely admit you are guessing and still insist that you are right and all that disagree are wrong?​

 

[Katzpur]

This is getting silly - I gave the page and verse numbers from the document choices she asked for!!!!

Getting silly? And you're just now figuring that out? FYI, "Doctrine and Covenants 132:20" is canonical. It represents official LDS doctrine. That passage states the following:

"Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them."

"The Essential James E. Talmage" (edited by James P. Harris) is not part of the LDS canon. It is not one of the Church's "Standard Works." It contains some of Elder Talmage's the interpretations of scripture. Talmage was a highly regarded member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and I believe his interpretation of D&C 132:20 was as accurate an interpretation as I have ever seen. Still, it is his interpretation, and as a fallible human being, he may or may not not have understood it perfectly. More importantly, he does not have the authority, as a single Apostle, to define doctrine, nor do I believe it was his intention to do so. Finally, as I said to you previously (verbatim): "I didn't see anything in his comments... to imply that Mormons believe they're going to stand before God at some point in the future and have Him dispense out planets to them."

Jeesh, I wonder if people gave C.S. Lewis this bad a time over his statement.

 

[idea]

Jeesh, I wonder if people gave C.S. Lewis this bad a time over his statement.

It is a pretty incredible thing to think about, and of coarse none of the glory comes from us - it's all a tribute to the power of the creator.... for to diminish the creation, is to likewise diminish the creator.

 

[Ingledsva]

..that they Can be a God

Do you disagree with:
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. Psalms 82:6

You just proved my points - Gods, Spiritual children after death, etc.

Psalms 82:6 I have said, You are Elohiym, and all of you are sons of the Most High.

People don't seem to understand this word is "elohiym" and it is not always used as "God."

Here is a more accurate translation -

Psa 82:1 A Psalm of Asaph: The MAGISTRATES/Judges stand in the assembly of the mighty/powerful, among the magistrates to judge/execute.
Psa 82:2 For how long will you judge unjustly, and by reason of, advance the wicked?
Psa 82:3 Defend the weak and bereaved, needy and destitute; be righteous!
Psa 82:4 Deliver the weak and destitute from the hand of the wicked.
Psa 82:5 Of a truth, they observe and don't understand. In misery they walk. Rotten is the whole foundation.
Psa 82:6 I said Elohiym/Judges thou are; and sons elevated above all others!
Psa 82:7 Nevertheless as human beings, shall die, and of a certainty, as all leaders fall.
Psa 82:8 Arise o Elohiym/Judges, execute judgment on the land/nation; for you shall inherit the whole nation/people/land.

Do you call God your "Heavenly Father"? Why do you call Him "Father", why do you think that title is used? Through what process did He become your Father in your opinion? Just curious.

I believe that God is our Father, that He became our Father - not through any vulgar fallen means, but through baptismal covenants - through our willingness to keep covenants with Him, and His willingness to keep them with us.

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 5:7)
7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

No I don't, however, I do understand that being called the children of some movement does not mean literal birth children.

I know some have tried to warp this teaching by claiming that Mormons think heaven is some big orgy or something - but that is a completely false lie. "

because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ," - that is what we believe creates the parent/child bond - covenants - that's the big deal about what baptism is, and why it is such an essential ordinance.

I'm a Mormon, and I see nothing wrong with the idea of becoming spiritual parents (which in my opinion involves becoming a teacher/example/nurturer/coach).

However, your documents say God was once a human - which became a God - and created - and WE are his spiritual children, - and that WE can become Gods EXACTLY as he - with our own spiritual children.

What's the point of heaven in your opinion? Sitting around playing harps for eternity? The greatest joys I've found have been to experience the love within my own family - if heaven is a place of ultimate joy, it would be a place with big happy families.

For us Mormons, the biggest treasures in heaven are not gold streets and mansions, the biggest treasures in heaven are one another. Can you honestly suggest anything more glorious and heavenly then that? or think there is something wrong with that?

I'm not a Bible believer.

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[idea]

I'm not a Bible believer.

It doesn't matter, what is most important to you - if not other people?

However, your documents say God was once a human - which became a God - and created - and WE are his spiritual children, - and that WE can become Gods EXACTLY as he - with our own spiritual children.

and what's wrong with that?

 

[Ingledsva]

You forgot to answer the question:

you freely admit you are guessing and still insist that you are right and all that disagree are wrong?
​

Again - silly!

However, he is a Mormon that studied at Brigham Young University - And went on proselytizing missions with the church.

I'm guessing he, like my Mormon relatives, knows what the church is teaching.

It is a figure of speach.

Obviously I am not guessing about the Mormon documents I read and gave numbers for.

I'm saying I think, that as someone Mormon University educated, a lawyer for the church, and person that rose to the ranks of Apostle, and has his works under the documents she asked for, he probably knows what he is talking about!!!

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[Katzpur]

Some Christians think that God made their spirits, but Mormons do not believe this - we believe that our spirit is eternal:

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:29 - 31)
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.

I understand what you're saying, but I see it a little differently -- or would at least explain it a little differently. I believe that God created the spirits of each and every one of us, but that He did so using the "light of truth" which was co-eternal with Him. In other words, had God not "created" our spirits from the "intelligences" which He did not create, we would never have existed as His offspring.

 

[McBell]

I'm saying I think, that as someone Mormon University educated, a lawyer for the church, and person that rose to the ranks of Apostle, and has his works under the documents she asked for, he probably knows what he is talking about!!!

And what makes his opinion better than those whose opinions differ from his?

 

[idea]

[/i]I understand what you're saying, but I see it a little differently -- or would at least explain it a little differently. I believe that God created the spirits of each and every one of us, but that He did so using the "light of truth" which was co-eternal with Him. In other words, had God not "created" our spirits from the "intelligences" which He did not create, we would never have existed as His offspring.

Yes, I know there is no official doctrine on the specifics of how the creation/transformation/organization happened. I personally do not find any evidence for it being anything akin to pregnancy though - after all, Eve, in her perfect form, chose not (or could not) to become pregnant. Pregnancy was a result of the fall, and I think there is a more perfect way to create children. (Also, consider that Jesus is their only begotten son - their "only" one, and that he had to be begotten by a handmaid... this is another example that suggests They do not "beget" children.)

I really do view baptism and the baptismal covenants as being the ordinance that seals the parent/child relationship. I think in heaven there might have been a similar ceremony / exchange of covenants that created the parent/child relationship. Certainly the light of truth is what attracted us to God, and why we entered into covenants, followed, and allowed ourselves to be transformed.

 

[Ingledsva]

Getting silly? And you're just now figuring that out? FYI, "Doctrine and Covenants 132:20" is canonical. It represents official LDS doctrine. That passage states the following:

"Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them."

I am well aware it is canon. I said so. He was using church canon.

"The Essential James E. Talmage" (edited by James P. Harris) is not part of the LDS canon. It is not one of the Church's "Standard Works." It contains some of Elder Talmage's the interpretations of scripture. Talmage was a highly respected members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and I believe his interpretation of D&C 132:20 was as accurate an interpretation as I have ever seen. Still, it is his interpretation, and as a fallible human being, he may or may not not have understood it perfectly. More importantly, he does not have the authority, as a single Apostle, to define doctrine, nor do I believe it was his intention to do so. Finally, as I said to you previously (verbatim): "I didn't see anything in his comments... to imply that Mormons believe they're going to stand before God at some point in the future and have Him dispense out planets to them."

As I have said several times I found him on the Mormon page under the Documents area you asked me to use. He also lists page and verse number of the official documents he used.

And his works are still sold by the Mormon publishing company.

And I never said God was going to dispense planets, etc.

Mormons have told me they are going to eventually be Gods just like YHVH, creating universes (obviously including planets,) and having spiritual children to populate them - just as YHVH.

The teaching is that the God of this universe was human, and became a God, and WE are his spiritual children, and that WE can become Gods - just like him - with our own kingdoms, and spiritual children, etc.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

And what makes his opinion better than those whose opinions differ from his?

Where are their opposing works in accepted church documents?

He is listed by the church - under the documents she wanted me to use - and is published by the church publishing company - to this day.

 

[Katzpur]

Yes, I know there is no official doctrine on the specifics of how the creation/transformation/organization happened. I personally do not find any evidence for it being anything akin to pregnancy though - after all, Eve, in her perfect form, chose not (or could not) to become pregnant. Pregnancy was a result of the fall, and I think there is a more perfect way to create children. (Also, consider that Jesus is their only begotten son - their "only" one, and that he had to be begotten by a handmaid... this is another example that suggests They do not "beget" children.)

Oh, I certainly didn't mean to suggest how God went about creating our spirits. Pregnancy is required for the development of an embryo unto a fetus and ultimately into a perfected formed human being. It seems to me that there would be no reason for any such process in the creation of a spirit. I was just saying that God took the "light of truth" and from it created the spirits of mankind. That's why the Bible says He is is "Father of spirits" and that we are "His offspring."

 

[idea]

Oh, I certainly didn't mean to suggest how God went about creating our spirits.

I agree, I just think the point is important to make, as there are some anti-Mormons who propagate the idea that Mormons believe that there is something immoral/sexual about becoming spiritual parents. (Not that there is anything wrong with sex within marriage, I just don't think that is the process God used to create Spirits - there's just way too many spirits for that, don't you think?) in any event, however we were transformed/created/organized, I'm sure it was a virtuous & beautiful process.

 

[Katzpur]

I agree, I just think the point is important to make, as there are some anti-Mormons who propagate the idea that Mormons believe that there is something immoral/sexual about becoming spiritual parents. (Not that there is anything wrong with sex within marriage, I just don't think that is the process God used to create Spirits - there's just way too many spirits for that, don't you think?) in any event, however we were transformed/created/organized, I'm sure it was a virtuous & beautiful process.

I absolutely agree with everything you have just said.

 

[Ingledsva]

I'm not a Bible believer

It doesn't matter, what is most important to you - if not other people?

Not sure of your meaning here? People are always important.

However, your documents say God was once a human - which became a God - and created - and WE are his spiritual children, - and that WE can become Gods EXACTLY as he - with our own spiritual children.

and what's wrong with that?

Nothing at all is wrong with the concept. I'm not judging it.

The problem here is that they are saying the things we have heard MORMONS say about this, and have found, as shown, in church documents, are not true, because a MORMON on here, thinks so.

It repeats over and over - that you can become EXACTLY as YHVH - who also was once human - and created - and produced US, whom it says are his spirit children.

So obviously - the Mormons saying they will be Gods, creating, and peopling, are repeating actual church doctrine. They are not making this up.

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[Ingledsva]

I agree, I just think the point is important to make, as there are some anti-Mormons who propagate the idea that Mormons believe that there is something immoral/sexual about becoming spiritual parents. (Not that there is anything wrong with sex within marriage, I just don't think that is the process God used to create Spirits - there's just way too many spirits for that, don't you think?) in any event, however we were transformed/created/organized, I'm sure it was a virtuous & beautiful process.

Huh. I've never heard the "immoral/sexual" idea.

Such would not make sense (in Mormon context,) even if they believed actual sex created the spirit children, as the couples are married for Eternity by the church. So, nothing immoral.

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[Katzpur]

I am well aware it is canon. I said so. He was using church canon.



As I have said several times I found him on the Mormon page under the Documents area you asked me to use. He also lists page and verse number of the official documents he used.

And his works are still sold by the Mormon publishing company.

And I never said God was going to dispense planets, etc.

Mormons have told me they are going to eventually be Gods just like YHVH, creating universes (obviously including planets,) and having spiritual children to populate them - just as YHVH.

The teaching is that the God of this universe was human, and became a God, and WE are his spiritual children, and that WE can become Gods - just like him - with our own kingdoms, and spiritual children, etc.

*

Whatever. You are convinced that you know what you're talking about and nothing I could possibly say is going to change that. For the record... some of your statements are doctrinally correct; others are not. You seem to be either unable to unwilling (or both) to make a differentiation between (1) what is actual doctrine, (2) what is merely conjecture but believed by a significant number of Mormons, and (3) what is nothing more than an anti-Mormon spin on LDS doctrine.

I've covered the topic in considerable detail now, repeated myself several times already and am simply not interested in discussing it further with you. Since you appear to be the only non-Mormon poster who doesn't seem to be getting it, I've got to conclude that wasn't my explanation that was inadequate. At any rate, please do feel free to have the last word because I am absolutely, positively, definitely through wasting my time talking to you.