Is Mormonism compatible with the Bible?

[Ingledsva]

So when are you going to change gears and actually address her posts concerning your mantra instead of merely repeating your mantra?

This is what she said to me way up above.

Well, I'll tell you what... Since their are Mormons in your extended family, you have a source you obviously considered more knowledgable and trustworthy than I am. Why don't you ask them to show you anywhere in the "Standard Works" (i.e. the LDS canon) where it is even hinted at what we will "rule planets or some such after the return." I don't know how I could possibly tell you which verses are being tweaked since none of them say anything of the sort.

I showed her a quote from an Apostle – which is part of the “Standard Works” (i.e. the LDS canon.)”

And below are two more verses showing where it says they will be Gods, and have offspring in that eternity, and a third quote saying “kingdoms.”

“If a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; … and if [they] abide in my covenant …

“Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting … because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them” (D&C 132:19–20).

Those who qualify for the celestial kingdom will receive, among other blessings:
Be able to have offspring, or in other words, gain the right to become eternal parents (see D&C 131:4

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2005/04/messages-from-the-doctrine-and-covenants-the-three-degrees-of-glory?lang=eng

“We have the power to perform a marriage, and we can do it so that the man and the woman become husband and wife here and now and—if they keep the covenant there and then made—they will remain husband and wife in the spirit world and will come up in glory and dominion, with kingdoms and exaltation in the resurrection, being husband and wife and having eternal life.”

http://www.lds.org/new-era/1978/06/celestial-marriage?lang=eng&query=ruling+celestial+planets

Someone up above asked about them being the Melchizedek Priesthood. Here is something on that.

“There are, in the church, two priesthoods, namely, the Melchizedek and Aaronic” (D&C 107:1). The Melchizedek Priesthood, which is “after the Order of the Son of God” (D&C 107:3), is the greater of these. It “holds the right of presidency, and has power and authority over all the offices in the church” (D&C 107:8). It also holds “the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church” (D&C 107:18). It is named after a great high priest who lived during the time of the prophet Abraham (see D&C 107:2-4; see also Alma 13:14-19).

The offices of the Melchizedek Priesthood are Apostle, Seventy, patriarch, high priest, and elder. The President of the High Priesthood is the President of the Church (see D&C 107:64-66).

I just read a couple of pages - there is a lot of this same message.

It says we can eventually be like the GOD of this Universe.

*

 

[savagewind]

This is being addressed to Ingledsva about the above post.

"Being gods" is about immortality not creative power. And nowhere in your words you have shared so far is there proof in writing of a promise of worlds.

Someone might conclude there must become more worlds to populate if the faithful are never to die and also have offspring.

The promise of "dominion and kingdoms" is an Abrahamic promise. I believe it. It does not mean being god over a world.

 

[dawny0826]

Of course there are varying interpretations. But when we said MORMONS said this, and I showed one of the quotes from her own church's apostle - I'm still being called a liar.

I'm not calling you a liar. I simply find arrogance in the mindset that YOU are right and SHE is wrong because you say so. That's essentially what you're saying, here.

She's not disputing that the quotes that you've provided have been provided from Mormons.

See here...

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3249291-post73.html

She's explaining to you that that their views aren't "mainstream" within her faith and that she disagrees. She then, thoroughly explained why she disagrees with their views.

You're exploiting views that aren't the norm within a faith and insisting that this is what it is...because "Mormons said it!" No crap. We've estabilshed this.

Where are your arguments against Katzpur's views on the matter?

 

[Katzpur]

My reading comprehension skills are just fine, and I read her responses, which don't change one iota the FACT that it is in her own church writings - AS SHOWN - and MORMONS themselves are telling us this!

I showed her a quote from an Apostle – which is part of the “Standard Works” (i.e. the LDS canon.)”

Actually, I suspect that your reading comprehension skills are really pretty good. I just think that your determination to prove me wrong is so strong that you aren't even bothering to try to understand what I'm saying. You just don't appear to have any real desire to get it right, and if you're not at least making at attempt, it's just not going to happen. Here is what I originally posted and have already called your attention to previously:

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.

I wasn't even going to bother responding to you again, but I hate to leave it up to non-LDS posters to fight my battles for me. The quote above is taken from an official statement by the LDS Church's "First Presidency," (a body of three who are higher-ranking than individual Apostles). It is found on the Church's official website.

A quote from an Apostle is not a part of the "Standard Works." It is one man's interpretation of doctrine and is not in any way, shape or form canonical. This is not rocket science, Igledsva.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Define "scripture"

Why?

It originally meant anything written...
Most people would say it is any religious writings relating to a particular religion.
A particular denomination might limit it to named writings.
However that gives problems when new or earlier documents are found.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

not at all.

The bible writers are very well known and their writings were collected into the canon because they proved to be true documents with prophecies that are embedded in historical fact.

I am aware that is what JW's believe.
Other Christians do not, because of the lack of evidence and conflicting studies.

I do not see that prophecies ever prove anything.
even shot gun pellets hit something some of the time.
Selecting and twisting Jewish scripture to prove New testament events is at best pointless or dishonest.

 

[idea]

**peeking in**

If anyone out there is still interested in the topic of becoming a god with the ability to "create" "worlds", can I interject with a little semantics discussion?

1. create
Mormons define "create" differently than most Christians do, in that we do not believe in ex-Nihlo creationism. There are others who agree with us (see link and link). A better word would be - transform, organize, change - which is something that people can already do. When we say "I created a sculpture, or I created a cake - it was not ex-Nihlo creationism that was performed.

2. World
The word "world" does not necessarily mean another planet. "Genesis 1:1 says "in a beginning" (bereshiyt means in "a" beginning, not "the" beginning). This world was destroyed at the fall of man (a full circle). The world begins a-new with the new order of things and is destroyed again at the flood, another circle. The world begins a-new and will be destroyed again (as prophesied by the prophets). Were there circles of time prior to Genesis 1:1 and circles of time after the destruction to come" - link

We say things like "it was a different world back then", and in Hebrew, "world" can also mean a time period, or an age. Olam is another Hebrew word for world - it can represent both physical and temporal dimensions.

Considering the different semantics of the words "create" and "world", I myself as a Mormon, understand the possibility of "creating new worlds" in the same sense as Elvis created a new world of music - that it is talking about the ability to transform what is around us in a unique and influential way, to bring about a new age, or a new era.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/emagazine/001.htmlAs far as becoming a parent - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart is the Father of the Piano Concerto... I believe that God becomes our spiritual Parent through baptismal covenants, (born-again). To become a parent to someone in a spiritual sense, is to become their teacher/mentor. Any Christian who has ever done any missionary work should have no problem with the idea of spiritual parents.

 

[sojourner]

not at all.

The bible writers are very well known and their writings were collected into the canon because they proved to be true documents with prophecies that are embedded in historical fact.

Very few of the biblical writers are very well known. Most of the writings are anonymous. They were collected into the canon because they accurately meshed with standard church teaching at the time. The prophecies are not generally "embedded in historical fact."

Misrepresenting biblical fact does not serve to lend your arguments any credibility.

 

[sojourner]

To me, both are man made religions.

All religion is "manmade." a claim of "manmade" does not dismiss a religion's authenticity.

 

[Gaura Priya]

I'm not really here to argue much of anything, but I find that the Book of Mormon is quite complimentary to the Bible, if even superior to the Bible in terms of Christian beliefs, doctrines, and morals.

While the wars in the Bible seem to be done by God, or at least guided by God, the Book of Mormon illustrates that wars, sometimes justified, are the result of human wickedness. The reason why the Lamanites and the Nephites had battles with each other and amongst themselves was because of refusal to practice virtue and love of God.

 

[Ingledsva]

Actually, I suspect that your reading comprehension skills are really pretty good. I just think that your determination to prove me wrong is so strong that you aren't even bothering to try to understand what I'm saying. You just don't appear to have any real desire to get it right, and if you're not at least making at attempt, it's just not going to happen. Here is what I originally posted and have already called your attention to previously:

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.

I wasn't even going to bother responding to you again, but I hate to leave it up to non-LDS posters to fight my battles for me. The quote above is taken from an official statement by the LDS Church's "First Presidency," (a body of three who are higher-ranking than individual Apostles). It is found on the Church's official website.

A quote from an Apostle is not a part of the "Standard Works." It is one man's interpretation of doctrine and is not in any way, shape or form canonical. This is not rocket science, Igledsva.

Everything I just posted, and the previous quote, are from the “Standard Works” (i.e. the LDS canon,)” from their page - which is what you asked me to use.

 

[Ingledsva]

I'm not calling you a liar. I simply find arrogance in the mindset that YOU are right and SHE is wrong because you say so. That's essentially what you're saying, here.

She's not disputing that the quotes that you've provided have been provided from Mormons.

See here...

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3249291-post73.html

She's explaining to you that that their views aren't "mainstream" within her faith and that she disagrees. She then, thoroughly explained why she disagrees with their views.

You're exploiting views that aren't the norm within a faith and insisting that this is what it is...because "Mormons said it!" No crap. We've estabilshed this.

Where are your arguments against Katzpur's views on the matter?

I'm not trying to be "right."

If you have read the continuation of our conversation, then you know that I provided Mormon "standard works" quotes with numbers (which she asked me to use,) to prove these - shall be Gods - will have spirit children just as the God of this universe - kingdoms - etc, are actually in the standard religion.

Obviously she does not have to believe these things in her religion.

 

[Gaura Priya]

Everything I just posted, and the previous quote, are from the “Standard Works” (i.e. the LDS canon,)” from their page - which is what you asked me to use.

Just a side note, the Standard Works for Mormon Christianity are: 1 - the Bible, 2 - the Book of Mormon, 3 - Doctrine & Covenants, and 4 - Pearl of Great Price.

Other groups of the Latter Day Saint movement utilise a) the Bible and the Book of Mormon, or b) the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine & Covenants.

I'm not even Mormon, but I grew up with Mormon friends, and I know that the Standard Works are those four, which are considered Scripture.

The writings of an Apostle or President of the Church is not Scripture, although it is a form of revelation.

 

[Ingledsva]

Just a side note, the Standard Works for Mormon Christianity are: 1 - the Bible, 2 - the Book of Mormon, 3 - Doctrine & Covenants, and 4 - Pearl of Great Price.

Other groups of the Latter Day Saint movement utilise a) the Bible and the Book of Mormon, or b) the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine & Covenants.

I'm not even Mormon, but I grew up with Mormon friends, and I know that the Standard Works are those four, which are considered Scripture.

The writings of an Apostle or President of the Church is not Scripture, although it is a form of revelation.

Under Doctrines is listed continuing revelation.
Doctrines and Covenants also says, with additions by his successors.
It also says - supplemented by materials periodically added by each denomination.

I found Apostle Talmage’s quote under Doctrines and Covenants and his quote included page and verse numbers in official doctrine. From the portion I posted – (Doctrine and Covenants 132:20).

Look at my last couple posts to her – that they Can be a God, can have spirit children just as the God of this universe did, and get kingdoms, etc, - are all posted with their page and verse numbers from official church doctrines, “Standard Works” (i.e. the LDS canon,)” as requested by her.

*

 

[Gaura Priya]

Under Doctrines is listed continuing revelation.
Doctrines and Covenants also says, with additions by his successors.
It also says - supplemented by materials periodically added by each denomination.

I found Apostle Talmage’s quote under Doctrines and Covenants and his quote included page and verse numbers in official doctrine. From the portion I posted – (Doctrine and Covenants 132:20).

The Book that you quoted is a book of Talmage's writings and he merely used Scripture to qualify his points. It's not Doctrine and Covenants proper. I looked at your reference, and there is absolutely nothing about Apostle Talmage in the notes - just more Scriptural references.

Look at my last couple posts to her – that they Can be a God, can have spirit children just as the God of this universe did, and get kingdoms, etc, - are all posted with their page and verse numbers from official church doctrines, “Standard Works” (i.e. the LDS canon,)” as requested by her.

*

I just have, and just as Katzpur did mention, Church members have always embellished what they didn't know. For example, Americans with African ancestry, for some odd reason, did not receive the priesthood (although Joseph Smith himself had many black believers and gave priesthood to the males!). Many Christians in that time period believed that the mark of Cain was given upon the African peoples and legitimised privileged racism. We know better today, and there is no Scriptural reference to allow racism - heck, there is some alleged evidence that even Moses' wife, Zipporah, was black.

The idea of Exaltation, to become like gods, is very Scriptural, such as the verse in Psalms. This is the goal of every good Mormon family, and is seen as a gift given from our Heavenly Parents (Heavenly Father AND Heavenly Mother). But the exact nature of this is not necessarily that of a creator, inasmuch as that of a co-heir of Christ's being.

As it says in the Bible, Christ's presence gave those who believed in Him, the power to become the children of God, to receive the crowns of righteousness and glory, and to partake in the glorified power of Christ.

In terms of being gods, having your own universe and spirit children - some Mormons believe it, and many others don't. They appear in esoteric Mormon writing and sometimes by Apostles, but not in the Scriptures.

 

[Gaura Priya]

LOL! I misread the title.

However, he is a Mormon that studied at Brigham Young University - And went on proselytizing missions with the church.

I'm guessing he, like my Mormon relatives, knows what the church is teaching.

Lots of Mormons study at BYU! My friend is there right now!

And for every young man after high school, missions is a sacred duty, and they are strongly encouraged to go on their mission for two years of their lives. Young women are not as pressured but may choose to go as well. Young women used to have to wait until 20, but that has lowered to 18 just recently.

Thus, since every good male member of the Church go on missions, it's kind of not surprising. My friend did his in Toronto (as a man from my province in Canada, lol).

 

[McBell]

I'm guessing he,

you freely admit you are guessing and still insist that you are right and all that disagree are wrong?

 

[Katzpur]

The Book that you quoted is a book of Talmage's writings and he merely used Scripture to qualify his points. It's not Doctrine and Covenants proper. I looked at your reference, and there is absolutely nothing about Apostle Talmage in the notes - just more Scriptural references.



I just have, and just as Katzpur did mention, Church members have always embellished what they didn't know. For example, Americans with African ancestry, for some odd reason, did not receive the priesthood (although Joseph Smith himself had many black believers and gave priesthood to the males!). Many Christians in that time period believed that the mark of Cain was given upon the African peoples and legitimised privileged racism. We know better today, and there is no Scriptural reference to allow racism - heck, there is some alleged evidence that even Moses' wife, Zipporah, was black.

The idea of Exaltation, to become like gods, is very Scriptural, such as the verse in Psalms. This is the goal of every good Mormon family, and is seen as a gift given from our Heavenly Parents (Heavenly Father AND Heavenly Mother). But the exact nature of this is not necessarily that of a creator, inasmuch as that of a co-heir of Christ's being.

As it says in the Bible, Christ's presence gave those who believed in Him, the power to become the children of God, to receive the crowns of righteousness and glory, and to partake in the glorified power of Christ.

In terms of being gods, having your own universe and spirit children - some Mormons believe it, and many others don't. They appear in esoteric Mormon writing and sometimes by Apostles, but not in the Scriptures.

GauraPriya, I don't think I have ever known a non-Mormon whose understanding of Mormonism is as accurate and comprehensive as yours. Honestly, I am very, very impressed (not to mention appreciative of your input).

 

[idea]

..that they Can be a God

Do you disagree with:
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. Psalms 82:6

can have spirit children just as the God of this universe did

Do you call God your "Heavenly Father"? Why do you call Him "Father", why do you think that title is used? Through what process did He become your Father in your opinion? Just curious.

I believe that God is our Father, that He became our Father - not through any vulgar fallen means, but through baptismal covenants - through our willingness to keep covenants with Him, and His willingness to keep them with us.

(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 5:7)
7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

I know some have tried to warp this teaching by claiming that Mormons think heaven is some big orgy or something - but that is a completely false lie. " because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ," - that is what we believe creates the parent/child bond - covenants - that's the big deal about what baptism is, and why it is such an essential ordinance.

I'm a Mormon, and I see nothing wrong with the idea of becoming spiritual parents (which in my opinion involves becoming a teacher/example/nurturer/coach).

What's the point of heaven in your opinion? Sitting around playing harps for eternity? The greatest joys I've found have been to experience the love within my own family - if heaven is a place of ultimate joy, it would be a place with big happy families.

For us Mormons, the biggest treasures in heaven are not gold streets and mansions, the biggest treasures in heaven are one another. Can you honestly suggest anything more glorious and heavenly then that? or think there is something wrong with that?

 

[InChrist]

Do you disagree with:
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. Psalms 82:6

This verse has been so taken out of context and twisted by those who want to believe Satan's lie and be gods themselves.

Psalm 82 in it's entirety is a condemnation by the Only God of those who are the leaders and judges of historical, literal Israel. As "gods" ( Hebrew: mighty ones that is, the judges) they held the power to administer between right and wrong, life and death, but they were doing so unjustly and the Creator God was confronting them on the abuse of their position. They had set themselves up as "gods" over the people, but the One and only true Creator God is letting them know they are but men and will die like men.

God stands in the congregation of the mighty;
He judges among the gods.
2 How long will you judge unjustly,
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Defend the poor and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy;
Free them from the hand of the wicked. 5 They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.
I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
7 But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.”
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
For You shall inherit all nations

Psalm 82

Do you call God your "Heavenly Father"? Why do you call Him "Father", why do you think that title is used? Through what process did He become your Father in your opinion? Just curious.

One becomes a child of God through faith in Jesus Christ and receiving Him as their Savior (But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:12-13) All who do so are adopted into God's family and call Him Father: For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” Romans 8:15 and Romans 8:23;9:4; Galatians 4:5;Ephesians 1:5.



I