Is multiculturalism a good or a bad thing ?

[Audie]

And @Massimo2002 - good OP

I think we have to look beyond cultures to underlying values. If immigrants have core values similar to the host country, then multiculturalism can be a good thing. But too often immigrants carry with them core values that are in opposition to the values of the host country. This is likely to cause trouble as we're seeing throughout Europe.

Underlying values! Exactly.

 

[Audie]

American style multicultural"ism" is wonderful. I can find restaurants run by many different ethnic people in easy driving distance. I can go to concerts presented by people from different cultures and attend events celebrating those cultures. My wife comes from a different culture (Engish/Irish and Christian whereas I'm an Eastern European Jew by heritage.

There are TV miniseries celebrating the music and musicians from many different cultures with different instruments My Music with Rhiannon Giddens | PBS preview at My Music with Rhiannon Giddens | Season 2 Preview | Season 2 | PBS. In my neighborhood we have ethnic Chinese on one house next to ours and Muslims from India on the other side with Spanish-speakers up the block and so forth.

And I'm just getting started on the value of the American experience of multiple cultures which some call "multiculturalism".

Hong Kong is hardly a monoculture.

I said "-ism".

Consider the open border ism.

 

[icehorse]

Maybe I am just misinformed, but... is it even possible to meaningfully prepare for a singularity?

I am under the impression that a true singularity is difficult to understand in advance.

Indeed, understanding and preparing for a singularity is extremely difficult.

But what people believe is a part of culture. Very soon we're going to be facing problems on a scale far greater than we've ever seen before. E.g., in the next few decades it's very likely that a BILLION people will be displaced from their homes. If we haven't gotten honest about beliefs that have to be abandoned, then that mass migration will create a Mad Max future. So @Quintessence's suggestion that "it's always been that way", while true, is an unworkable perspective moving forward.

So we have to stop believing in things like unbridled capitalism, endless growth, theocracies, misogyny and so on.

In practice, for the last several decades in Europe, the de facto implementation of "multi-culturalism" has been to pretend that we all share the same values and that even if we believe different things, we can live together in harmony. But some beliefs do not mix well. For example, theocrats and secularists are by definition at extreme odds with each other. Thoughtlessly forcing them to live together is a recipe for disaster.

 

[anotherneil]

When it comes to religion, it's probably a bad thing; it's harder for religion to have a grip on a multicultural community.

 

[Quintessence]

When it comes to religion, it's probably a bad thing; it's harder for religion to have a grip on a multicultural community.

Huh? How do figure that? This doesn't make any sense at all. Religion and culture are more or less inseparable - if you have multiculturalism you also have religious diversity and vice versa.

 

[Spice]

But some beliefs do not mix well. For example, theocrats and secularists are by definition at extreme odds with each other. Thoughtlessly forcing them to live together is a recipe for disaster.

But most disagreements become less volatile when the opposing positions become personally entwined.

 

[icehorse]

But most disagreements become less volatile when the opposing positions become personally entwined.

Sure, in low density, long-time-frame situations, I agree.

But the situation is high density and short time frames.

 

[anotherneil]

Huh? How do figure that? This doesn't make any sense at all. Religion and culture are more or less inseparable - if you have multiculturalism you also have religious diversity and vice versa.

Well, think of a Puritan community from the early days of the US, or a country like Iran or Saudi Arabia, where there isn't a diversity of positions when it comes to religion. The completely dominant religion if these areas is so strong that it even controls the government, which compels everyone in that community or nation to adhere to such religious rules.

In a multicultural community, meaning the presence of a diversity of positions when it comes to religion, it's far more difficult for one religion to dominate the rest of the community with its own religious rules.

 

[Kathryn]

I generally really enjoy multiculturalism as long as I can go back home and be in my own culture.

 

[Audie]

Indeed, understanding and preparing for a singularity is extremely difficult.

But what people believe is a part of culture. Very soon we're going to be facing problems on a scale far greater than we've ever seen before. E.g., in the next few decades it's very likely that a BILLION people will be displaced from their homes. If we haven't gotten honest about beliefs that have to be abandoned, then that mass migration will create a Mad Max future. So @Quintessence's suggestion that "it's always been that way", while true, is an unworkable perspective moving forward.

So we have to stop believing in things like unbridled capitalism, endless growth, theocracies, misogyny and so on.

In practice, for the last several decades in Europe, the de facto implementation of "multi-culturalism" has been to pretend that we all share the same values and that even if we believe different things, we can live together in harmony. But some beliefs do not mix well. For example, theocrats and secularists are by definition at extreme odds with each other. Thoughtlessly forcing them to live together is a recipe for disaster.

There's no such thing as unbridled capitalism.

As for the inevitable doom, I did read mom's old
copy of "limits to growth" from late 60s or

The disaster by 2000 came and went.

Nobody noticed.

 

[icehorse]

There's no such thing as unbridled capitalism.

Ok, would you agree that capitalism ought to have some checks and measures that it doesn't currently have?

As for the inevitable doom, I did read mom's old
copy of "limits to growth" from late 60s or

The disaster by 2000 came and went.

Nobody noticed.

Ecological overshoot IS happening. One of the problems is that issues associated with exponential growth are often hard to observe in the early stages. But sea levels ARE rising, and aquifers ARE being drained, and topsoil IS being depleted, and on an on. And fairly simple math shows us that these tendencies are not sustainable. In your opinion, if the prediction of "when" the displacement of a billion people is off by a few decades, does that mean we shouldn't worry about it?

 

[sun rise]

When it comes to religion, it's probably a bad thing; it's harder for religion to have a grip on a multicultural community.

With some people that's true. But in my county we have An Interfaith Council About Us with members of these organizations representing all the major religions and several others including Wicca.

Baha’i Community​

Beautiful Redeemer Ministries Church​

Beth Chaim Congregation​

Buddhist, eclectic​

Catholic Parish​

Christ the King Catholic Parish​

Christ the Lord Episcopal Church​

Congregation B’nai Shalom​

Congregation B’nai Tikvah​

Covenant of the Goddess, Wicca​

Easter Hills United Methodist Church​

First Church of Christian Science​

Grace Presbyterian Church​

Hindu Community​

Islamic Center​

Islamic Center of Zahra – Shia​

MDUUC, Indigenous​

MTO School of Islamic Sufism​

Peace Lutheran​

Sikh Community​

St. Peter’s CME​

Sufism Reoriented​

Temple Isaiah​

United Methodist​

Unity​

 

[Quintessence]

Well, think of a Puritan community from the early days of the US, or a country like Iran or Saudi Arabia, where there isn't a diversity of positions when it comes to religion. The completely dominant religion if these areas is so strong that it even controls the government, which compels everyone in that community or nation to adhere to such religious rules.

In a multicultural community, meaning the presence of a diversity of positions when it comes to religion, it's far more difficult for one religion to dominate the rest of the community with its own religious rules.

Okay, that makes a lot more sense - you were not talking about religion in general, but specific cases of cultural hegemony that can occur regardless of whether or not the label "religion" is slapped on things or not. Attempts to strongarm cultural hegemony happen more because a small fraction of individuals in a society can't play nice with others. They never succeed, because diversity is more or less baked into the universe itself, but that doesn't stop the tiny fraction from obsessing over their power and control fantasies in vain.

 

[metis]

If multiculturalism is bad news, then maybe all people here not of Amerindian descent should pack up leave and go to where they came from.

 

[Spice]

If multiculturalism is bad news, then maybe all people here not of Amerindian descent should pack up leave and go to where they came from.

If my local region were required to revert to "natives" only, we would be few indeed. If fully native only were required, we'd be a population of 0.

 

[Audie]

Ok, would you agree that capitalism ought to have some checks and measures that it doesn't currently have?



Ecological overshoot IS happening. One of the problems is that issues associated with exponential growth are often hard to observe in the early stages. But sea levels ARE rising, and aquifers ARE being drained, and topsoil IS being depleted, and on an on. And fairly simple math shows us that these tendencies are not sustainable. In your opinion, if the prediction of "when" the displacement of a billion people is off by a few decades, does that mean we shouldn't worry about it?

Capitalism is different in every jurisdiction,
and regulations frequently change.

As a dual major in biology and geology AND a resident of China I've considerable awareness of human impact
on the earth's resources/ ecosystems.
We all but invented " overshoot ".

There's plenty to be concerned about.

I cipommented in another thread about the
projected results of CO2 levels / climate,
noting cloudy crystal balls, past prediction failures,
the attribution of EVerything to "climage chsnge".

The bold predictions particularly by politicians and
teenage girls are far from accurate, or helpful, producing
rather a dismissive contempt.

Still. I think by widely divers means we collectively are headed for catastrophe of which an acceleration of sea level rise is, relatively, insignificant.

 

[icehorse]

Capitalism is different in every jurisdiction,
and regulations frequently change.

As a dual major in biology and geology AND a resident of China I've considerable awareness of human impact
on the earth's resources/ ecosystems.
We all but invented " overshoot ".

There's plenty to be concerned about.

I cipommented in another thread about the
projected results of CO2 levels / climate,
noting cloudy crystal balls, past prediction failures,
the attribution of EVerything to "climage chsnge".

The bold predictions particularly by politicians and
teenage girls are far from accurate, or helpful, producing
rather a dismissive contempt.

Still. I think by widely divers means we collectively are headed for catastrophe of which an acceleration of sea level rise is, relatively, insignificant.

Can you clarify "we all but invented overshoot"?

As far as bold predictions - to me the stakes are SOOOO high that we ought to err on the side of alarmism. What's the downside of going green a little earlier than necessary?

As far as what's mos urgent, it's a hard question. I'm not locked into thinking it'll be sea level. It might be droughts, pandemics, who knows.

 

[Audie]

Can you clarify "we all but invented overshoot"?

As far as bold predictions - to me the stakes are SOOOO high that we ought to err on the side of alarmism. What's the downside of going green a little earlier than necessary?

As far as what's mos urgent, it's a hard question. I'm not locked into thinking it'll be sea level. It might be droughts, pandemics, who knows.

A trip to China would clarify for you
what i mean by how we all but invented it.

 

[icehorse]

A trip to China would clarify for you
what i mean by how we all but invented it.

Well, if you're saying that overshoot is a real problem, created by humans, then we're agreed.

 

[We Never Know]

In this century weather we like it or not the world has become more multicultural and connected but I don't think that this is a good thing because too many different races and cultures in a small space creates tension and some of these immigrants don't assimilate into the Broder culture of the host country. But they bring with them more work which boosts the economy which is a good thing.

Multiculturalism is inevitable. I say that because of multiracial/biracial relationships/marriage/children.