Is Nationalism Bad?

[kai]

The trick, Kai, is in realizing the effect of one's actions upon the others.

Making too much of the issue of nationality - which is, after all, basically make-believe - encourages others to answer in kind. It can be practical in that it allows for some decisions to be taken, but nationalism must be reigned in lest it becomes destructive. And ultimately, it is simply not very useful.

To go through your questions in order: yes, I could conceivably lock myself away from brothers and sisters whom I expected to be too hostile. Sure, there is no real point in keeping taxes in "my own country" regardless of actual needs and priorities. Yes, borders are to eventually become a historical curiosity and nothing more.

I agree with Luis. What he said.

but lets not create a border less utopia in the distant future ,and use it as a point now, lets stay with our feet firmly on the ground right here and now and see quite clearly that people want and need national identities.

Oh forget nazis and fascists just people who are aware and enjoy their nationality.


Your nationality is an extension of your family ,an extension of your surname its an identity.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

but lets not create a border less utopia in the distant future ,and use it as a point now, lets stay with our feet firmly on the ground right here and now and see quite clearly that people want and need national identities.

Oh forget nazis and fascists just people who are aware and enjoy their nationality.


Your nationality is an extension of your family ,an extension of your surname its an identity.

Like I said, I think there is a difference between those who just like living in their countries and what I'm describing when I say nationalism. When I say nationalism I mean the idea that your country is the best, or a political ideaology used to control the masses, such as the Republican Party of America who controls it's followers through a sort of nationalism.

 

[Onkara]

Like I said, I think there is a difference between those who just like living in their countries and what I'm describing when I say nationalism. When I say nationalism I mean the idea that your country is the best, or a political ideaology used to control the masses, such as the Republican Party of America who controls it's followers through a sort of nationalism.

Ok, that is different to my take on nationalism, my arugment (for the sake of exploring ideas only in this interesting thread) is that nationalism leads to geographical identity and drive in a unified purpose to improve something together. That I see as offering more than pure indivdiualistic grounds alone i.e. pure captialism. Nor need naitonalism be aristocratism or elitism. I would not like to see it stoop to segregation and elitism, after all that already exists in democratic socieites.

 

[LuisDantas]

What Senedjem said. Also:

Ok, that is different to my take on nationalism, my argument (for the sake of exploring ideas only in this interesting thread) is that nationalism leads to geographical identity and drive in a unified purpose to improve something together.

It does. It is not always detrimental. I wonder if it is ever necessary.

I mean, sure, the appeal is obvious and I guess everyone goes through such a phase. But from a rational point of view, it is just so make-believe and so dangerous.

That I see as offering more than pure individualistic grounds alone i.e. pure capitalism.

Just barely. Nationalism is only slightly less egocentric than individualistic, and individualism is at least based on realistic, objective concepts of self, while nation is a completely artificial and arbitrary construct.

Nor need nationalism be aristocratism or elitism. I would not like to see it stoop to segregation and elitism, after all that already exists in democratic societies.

Neither do I. I only wonder what the point of not planning to get rid of it yet be. It is not like it should be kept, after all.

 

[LuisDantas]

but lets not create a border less utopia in the distant future ,and use it as a point now,

Give me a reason not to, and I will consider it.

lets stay with our feet firmly on the ground right here and now and see quite clearly that people want and need national identities.

They often do want them, sometimes they even crave them, that much is true.

But needing them? I can't even conceive of such a scenario. It is simply not realistic.

On the contrary, even. Nationalities have been artificially created time and again, and disposed of just as often. Prussia, for instance, does not exist any longer. That is hardly a tragedy.

People need national identities about as much as they need to identify with sports teams, and for not too different reasons.

Oh forget nazis and fascists just people who are aware and enjoy their nationality.

Well, if you want me to forget such a substantial factor, why shouldn't I instead ask you to forget about the upsides of nationality instead? Would you forget about the risks of "foreign" invasion and the like?

I don't think you would. Nor do I see how emphasis on the outdated concept that are nations is at all helpful for, well, anyone.

If we know of better ways (and we do), let's put them to work.

Your nationality is an extension of your family ,an extension of your surname its an identity.

If I choose to think of them as such. Which I shouldn't, at least not with any seriousness.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

The point is this- nation is an illusion. Yes I'll agree it's an illusion that serves a purpose, but it's still an illusion. When do we move away from the illusion and see the truth of humanity's oneness?

 

[Onkara]

When do we move away from the illusion and see the truth of humanity's oneness?

When people recognise that there is no duality.

Before then people are motivated in their self interest. Nationalism offers an illusion to unite and look beyond the illusion of individuality and selfishness. :rainbow1:

 

[Rainbow Mage]

When people recognise that there is no duality.

Before then people are motivated in their self interest. Nationalism offers an illusion to unite and look beyond the illusion of individuality and selfishness. :rainbow1:

Well at least you acknowledge that an illusion that serves a purpose is still an illusion.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Oh, but is that the alternative to the current situation? Or maybe it is more like no government as such?


Either way, I am puzzled by this feeling of yours. I have met it before, and that makes it that more intriguing. Why would a one world government be much different from any government - particularly that of a big country? And why would the difference be so huge as to justify such strong feelings?

Luis, no disrespect but the list of reasons are long and the feelings run deep.

It is not like I came to this position on my own, it has been instilled in me since early childhood. I was very close to my grandfather who was born in the 1800's.
He and others of his generation warned me that I might see an attempt to start a one world government and a one world currency.

I have stood with my hand over my heart and pledged allegiance to my country since back in the 1950's. I was drafted and had to fight in a war I disagreed with for my country. I don't even like a large powerful federal government much less a bigger even stronger world government. I want to be governed by a strong local government where I could actually meet and talk to my representatives.

I want to have the power to remove my representatives if they don't act in my best interest.

Then there is the religious aspect of a one world currency and government that requires you to take a mark to buy and sell. This first charismatic one world leader is prophesied to be the Antichrist.

It has been foretold this will happen and that I must resist to have any part of it what so ever.

Then there is my personal belief that I have come to on my own.

A one world government would not allow me to own guns. I believe I am not in control of my own destiny or a free man without the sacred trust between myself and society that I have the power over life and death at all times.

I have earned this right and refuse to give it away.

Then there is pride. Not racism or supremacy, but national pride.

Look at the olympics, all these folks each representing their country with pride and integrity standing with mutual respect for one another in competition.

The list could go on forever and the feelings run deep when a person would choose death above being ruled by a one world government. :sorry1:

 

[LuisDantas]

Deep it certainly runs. Thanks for the sincerity.

For what it is worth, I agree with this:

I don't even like a large powerful federal government much less a bigger even stronger world government. I want to be governed by a strong local government where I could actually meet and talk to my representatives.

I want to have the power to remove my representatives if they don't act in my best interest.

Not that I see how Nationalism helps with that, mind you.

 

[sandandfoam]

I dislike nationalism because I dislike being the object of irrational ire.

 

[Valjean]

Luis, no disrespect but the list of reasons are long and the feelings run deep.

It is not like I came to this position on my own, it has been instilled in me since early childhood. I was very close to my grandfather who was born in the 1800's.
He and others of his generation warned me that I might see an attempt to start a one world government and a one world currency.

I understand how early indoctrination can instill deep seated attitudes, values loyalties, &c. You mentioned that these are feelings, ie: these values and attitudes are not based on reason, logic, or critical analysis. They're just emotions and, as such, should always be kept subservient to reason. Bad things happen when emotions are given free reign.
As far as government, I tend to agree with Luis. A local government can be as oppressive as a state government can be as oppressive as a national government. How would a world government necessarily be worse than a city, county or state government? The challenge is to insure the government represents the interests of the people and does not play favorites.
One world currency? Why would this be oppressive?

I have stood with my hand over my heart and pledged allegiance to my country since back in the 1950's. I was drafted and had to fight in a war I disagreed with for my country. I don't even like a large powerful federal government much less a bigger even stronger world government. I want to be governed by a strong local government where I could actually meet and talk to my representatives.

This was your choice, as was the draft. You didn't 'have to' fight. You chose to be oppressed and now you cling to the government that oppressed you and fear an alternative.
It always perplexes me when people say "my country." What made it yours? A government/country is a very large gang claiming turf. Should a civilian support and feel allegiance to the Crips if his house happens to be on a block in Crip territory? Would it be treason to support the Bloods? How is this any different from patriotism?

I want to have the power to remove my representatives if they don't act in my best interest.

A strange sentiment coming from an American. Americans are a cowed and hoodwinked people. In Greece or France or England any hint that the government is not serving the interests of the masses brings mobs into the streets to shut it down. An America worrying about an oppressive "world government" seems like a joke.

Then there is the religious aspect of a one world currency and government that requires you to take a mark to buy and sell. This first charismatic one world leader is prophesied to be the Antichrist.

It has been foretold this will happen and that I must resist to have any part of it what so ever.

There's reason, there's history, and there's religious mythology. Isn't there supposed to be a division between church and state, if only for purely practical reasons?
I can scarcely imagine the chaos that would result if people abdicated reason and the lessons of history in favor of mythology.

Then there is my personal belief that I have come to on my own.

A one world government would not allow me to own guns. I believe I am not in control of my own destiny or a free man without the sacred trust between myself and society that I have the power over life and death at all times.

I have earned this right and refuse to give it away.

Where'd you get this idea? Why would a world government take away your guns -- and what difference would it make, anyway? Guns are just a symbol Americans cling to to convince themselves that they have control over their lives. Yet with each oppressive policy or infringement on freedom or privacy it's the pro gun Republicans that are first to roll over and p*ss themselves.
The French, whom Americans so enjoy mocking, are laughing at you. In France, the government really does fear the people, and the French don't need guns to convince themselves of it.

Then there is pride. Not racism or supremacy, but national pride.

Look at the olympics, all these folks each representing their country with pride and integrity standing with mutual respect for one another in competition.

The list could go on forever and the feelings run deep when a person would choose death above being ruled by a one world government. :sorry1:

They say pride goeth before a fall. They even list it as a sin. Why is national pride a good thing? And what do we have to be proud of -- that we're the toughest gang on the block?
You say feelings run deep. Again, is this a good thing? What have these feelings ever wrought but war and strife?
I'm reminded of the slave who fears freedom; a peon under a brutal dictatorship who fears revolution. You cling to the devil you know in fear of the uncertainty of change.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Zionism is a great example of why nationalism is pure evil.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I understand how early indoctrination can instill deep seated attitudes, values loyalties, &c. You mentioned that these are feelings, ie: these values and attitudes are not based on reason, logic, or critical analysis. They're just emotions and, as such, should always be kept subservient to reason. Bad things happen when emotions are given free reign.
As far as government, I tend to agree with Luis. A local government can be as oppressive as a state government can be as oppressive as a national government. How would a world government necessarily be worse than a city, county or state government? The challenge is to insure the government represents the interests of the people and does not play favorites.
One world currency? Why would this be oppressive?

This was your choice, as was the draft. You didn't 'have to' fight. You chose to be oppressed and now you cling to the government that oppressed you and fear an alternative.
It always perplexes me when people say "my country." What made it yours? A government/country is a very large gang claiming turf. Should a civilian support and feel allegiance to the Crips if his house happens to be on a block in Crip territory? Would it be treason to support the Bloods? How is this any different from patriotism?

A strange sentiment coming from an American. Americans are a cowed and hoodwinked people. In Greece or France or England any hint that the government is not serving the interests of the masses brings mobs into the streets to shut it down. An America worrying about an oppressive "world government" seems like a joke.

There's reason, there's history, and there's religious mythology. Isn't there supposed to be a division between church and state, if only for purely practical reasons?
I can scarcely imagine the chaos that would result if people abdicated reason and the lessons of history in favor of mythology.

Where'd you get this idea? Why would a world government take away your guns -- and what difference would it make, anyway? Guns are just a symbol Americans cling to to convince themselves that they have control over their lives. Yet with each oppressive policy or infringement on freedom or privacy it's the pro gun Republicans that are first to roll over and p*ss themselves.
The French, whom Americans so enjoy mocking, are laughing at you. In France, the government really does fear the people, and the French don't need guns to convince themselves of it.


They say pride goeth before a fall. They even list it as a sin. Why is national pride a good thing? And what do we have to be proud of -- that we're the toughest gang on the block?
You say feelings run deep. Again, is this a good thing? What have these feelings ever wrought but war and strife?
I'm reminded of the slave who fears freedom; a peon under a brutal dictatorship who fears revolution. You cling to the devil you know in fear of the uncertainty of change.

I have the upmost respect for you Seyorni, we will just have to agree to disagree about this one.

 

[Bismillah]

An "us" vs "them" mentality is always bad.

 

[kai]

An "us" vs "them" mentality is always bad.

an us and them mentality doesn't only relate to nationalism Abibi, anything that separates the human race into categories is able to do this including religion.

 

[Sunstone]

An "us" vs "them" mentality is always bad.

It's a conceptual tool useful for those times when it becomes necessary to defend oneself or one's group against an aggressor. It's also useful to the aggressor, but that's another story.

 

[Onkara]

Zionism is a great example of why nationalism is pure evil.

Can you elaborate on why, please , I can't see it exactly unless you mean their presence in Israel is nationalist?

 

[Onkara]

Well at least you acknowledge that an illusion that serves a purpose is still an illusion.

Absolutely, the danger arises when people do not

 

[zenzero]

Friend Senedjem,

Is Nationalism Bad?

There is nothing as good/bad!
It depends on your mind, where it gets attached.
History has shown that this nationalism has also offered so many martyrs who sacrificed their lives for the independence of their country or were so much devoted to get their country free.
Once we understand that we are all parts of the whole and that like various planets that are evolving Earth is one where their are many evolving beings whose minds have created countries, religions and so many devices to divide themselves for power, wealth they can never use in their lifetime etc.
Those who transcend their minds find themselves as common as any other being in this universe which is only temporary.
Love & rgds