Is Paul arrogant?

[JM2C]

Paul tells others to follow ONLY his teachings (of which he NEVER quotes Yeshua)

15 So then, brothers and sisters,stand firm and hold fast to the teachings[a] we passed on to you,whether by word of mouth or by letter. (2 Tim. 2:15 NIV.)

Paul’s teaching came from the Lord Jesus.

Paul condemned fellowship with any that didn't adhere to his doctrine:

6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive anddoes not live according to the teaching[a] you received from us.(2 Thess 3:6 NIV.)

Paul elevated his own gospel which was "about" Yeshua. But had none of Yeshua's teachings:

25 Now to himwho is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaimabout Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, (1 Cor. 16:25 NIV.)

Rather than tell people to follow Jesus, as Jesus taught (Matt 4:19 "follow me"), Paul said:

16I call upon you, therefore, becomeye followers of me; (1 Cor. 4:16 YLT.)

Paul’s doctrines came from the Lord Jesus. I follow not Paul; I follow Paul’s teachings because they came from the Lord Jesus.

Col 1:25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness—
Col 1:26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints.
Col 1:27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

The Israelites did not follow Moses but God. God gave Moses His commandments for the Israelites.

Ex 19:9 The LORD said to Moses, “I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you.” Then Moses told the LORD what the people had said.

 

[JM2C]

Paul claimed he was "set apart" at birth to reveal Yeshua,:

15 But whenGod, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16to reveal his Son in meso that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus. (Gal. 1:15-17 NIV.)

So as every Christ followers were set apart by God by His grace by the death, burial, and the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.

 

[JM2C]

Paul claims to be crucified to the world:

14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which[a]the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. (Gal. 6:14 NIV.)

”the world has been crucified/DEAD to me, and I/DEAD to the world”

 

[Sonofason]

I would challenge you to provide examples where Yeshua changes or diminishes from the Torah.

As far as Paul goes. Here is a short list of where Paul claims emphatically that the law is no more:

Paul is blunt in Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:14, 2 Cor. 3:11-17, Romans 7:1-3 et seq, and Galatians 3:19 et seq. The Law is "abolished," "done away with," "nailed to a tree," "has faded away,' and was "only ordained by angels...who are no gods."

If we were to cite Paul's condemnations of the Law in one string, the point is self-evident that Paul abrogated the Law for everyone. See Eph. 2:15 ("setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations"); Col. 2:14 ("having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross;") 2 Cor. 3:14 ("old covenant"); Gal. 5:1 ("yoke of bondage"); Rom. 10:4 ("Christ is the end of the law"); 2 Cor. 3:7 ("law of death"); Gal. 5:1 ("entangles"); Col. 2:14-17 ("a shadow"); Rom. 3:27 ("law of works"); Rom. 4:15 ("works wrath"); 2 Cor. 3:9(ministration of condemnation); Gal. 2:16 ("cannot justify"); Gal. 3:21 (cannot give life); Col. 2:14 ("wiped out" exaleipsas); Gal. 3:19, 4:8-9 ("given by angels...who are no gods [and are] weak and beggarly celestial beings/elements").

Finally, in Romans 7:1-6, Paul claims when Jesus died, the husband died and this dissolved the Law's bonds between the husband (God of Sinai) and wife (God's people). This henceforth made the "law dead to us." (Romans 7:4.) This death-of-God-the-husband released the Jews, Paul contends, and when Christ resurrected the bonds of marriage with the old God were not renewed. (The implication, we contend, was Paul meant a new God emerges or otherwise if the same husband-God resurrected, why wasn't the bond to the Law renewed? Paulinists come near to admitting this is the only logical meaning while even confessing they are uncomfortable with the passage's 'seemingly' polytheistic explanation... Uggh. On our thorough analysis of Romans 7:1-6, see our webpage discussion.)

According to Jesus, the Law stands. According to Paul the law is of no effect on believers due to the love and mercy of God upon those who love and obey Him. I see no contradiction.

If you are suggesting that sinners all go to hell, I think you are wrong. We are all sinners. And we all continue to sin. There is no person that doesn't continue in sin. Which therefore means that we all still do deserve to be cast into hell. It is God's love for us that saves us, but not all of us, only the ones who accept God's gift of atonement for our sins, Jesus Christ, His Son.

 

[Simplelogic]

According to Jesus, the Law stands. According to Paul the law is of no effect on believers due to the love and mercy of God upon those who love and obey Him. I see no contradiction.

What are you talking about???

Jesus = Law stands

Paul= law is of no effect

And you see no contradiction?

 

[Simplelogic]

So as every Christ followers were set apart by God by His grace by the death, burial, and the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.

Yet he killed many believers while being set apart for this great task?

 

[Simplelogic]

Christ’s atonement for sin is sufficient enough and lacks nothing.

Remember what the Lord Jesus said:

Mt 5:11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

Jn 15:20 Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.

What Christians are experiencing as far as persecutions –of body and mind and spiritual- like what Paul and the other apostles had experienced by preaching the gospel is what Paul meant by “fill up on my part that which is lacking [where the reference is not to the vicarious sufferings of Christ, but] of the afflictions of Christ [from which Christ’s followers must not shrink, whether sufferings of body or mind or spiritual] in my/Christians flesh for his body's sake, which is the church;”

Every time the apostles and Christians today preach the gospel and persecuted by preaching it they are filling up what was intended for Christ. IOW, they are persecuting Christians as if they are Christ Himself or “the body of Christ, which is the church”.

1Pe 4:14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.

Ac 5:41 The apostles left the high council rejoicing that God had counted them worthy to suffer dishonor for the name of Jesus.

Christians sufferings cannot in anyway change what the Lord Jesus did on the cross as if it’s still lacking or insufficient or not enough.

As Robert Roberg says in Did Paul Preach Another Gospel? (2009) at 58:

Paul apparently felt Yahshua had failed in some respect and God chose Paul to finish the work of salvation.

Paul defenders admit the issue. David May in Colossians (2000) at 71 asks: "Does it suggest that Jesus' sufferings were insufficient to bring salvation and that Paul is in the process of making up for [this deficiency]?"

While Paul-defenders engage in blanket denials that this was Paul's meaning, e.g., "in this verse, Paul is not saying that Christ's death was insufficient" (NKJV Study Bible (2008) at 1887), they do not give articulate reasons to think Paul is saying anything else. They typically explain that Paul does not mean Christ's sufferings were "insufficient" to save us, but instead only that Christians must "encounter trials and difficulties in promoting the kingdom." (New Englander (1844) Vol. 2 at 581.)

However, none of that explanation wrestles in what sense was Paul "completing" the sufferings of Christ which were otherwise "lacking" or "missing" something. Thus, a plain reading of Col 1:24 presents an obvious spiritually prideful statement from Paul that he was making up in his own sufferings what supposedly was not complete in what Christ did for us. This will not be the last prideful statement we find from Paul.

 

[Simplelogic]

Paul explains he means he has crucifixion wounds in his flesh, apparently meaning his sufferings are equivalent to the sacrificial work of Christ on the cross:

17 From now on, let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus. (Gal. 6:17 NIV.)

This may explain Col 1:24 where Paul says Jesus' work was not complete until Paul completed it in his own flesh. See above. It also adds clarity to what Paul means by saying "I am crucified with Christ...for Christ lives in me."Gal. 2:20 NIV.

 

[Simplelogic]

”I am with you in spirit” means “I am with you in thoughts, with you in my prayers, with you in my inner being”

If a pastor today is away from his congregation he would say the same thing. Even if I’m in New York and you are California my spirit, my thoughts, and my prayers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, be with you all as if I’m with you physically there in California. There is nothing wrong with that.

No…this is still gnostic bs. Our spirits are not omnipresent. This type of language became popular because of Paul's gnostic concepts which are read every sunday by christians.

 

[outhouse]

Jesus = Law stands

Paul= law is of no effect

But you have big problems, can you substantiate that Jesus said that, and not certain gospel authors?

And can you substantiate that is the context of pauls quote? Because I think you misquote both

 

[Sonofason]

What are you talking about???

Jesus = Law stands

Paul= law is of no effect

And you see no contradiction?

Of course not, and that is because there is no contradiction.

The law stands:
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
(Mathew 5:18)

And the law is of no effect on believers.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."
(John 3:16-21)

A believer is still guilty of his sins. But God has covered the sins of the believer to the extent that the penalty for those sins under the law no longer has any effect. The penalty for the sins of those who believe in the redemptive work of God through His sacrifice of His Son is null and void. For them, the debt has been paid in full.

The law is still in effect. God paid the redemptive price required under the Laws of Moses for those who believe in His Son Jesus.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Paul claims that he is making up for things that lacked in Yeshua's sufferings:

24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. (NIV)

Now I’m happy to be suffering for you. I’m completing what is missing from Christ’s sufferings with my body. I’m doing this for the sake of his body, which is the church. (Col 1:24, CEB)

Paul claimed that his spirit could be with believers in other places. Much like the Holy Spirit:

3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a][b] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Cor. 5:3-5 NIV.)

Paul tells others to follow ONLY his teachings (of which he NEVER quotes Yeshua)

15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings[a] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. (2 Tim. 2:15 NIV.)

Paul condemned fellowship with any that didn't adhere to his doctrine:

6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching[a] you received from us. (2 Thess 3:6 NIV.)

Paul elevated his own gospel which was "about" Yeshua. But had none of Yeshua's teachings:

25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, (1 Cor. 16:25 NIV.)

Rather than tell people to follow Jesus, as Jesus taught (Matt 4:19 "follow me"), Paul said:

16I call upon you, therefore, become ye followers of me; (1 Cor. 4:16 YLT.)

Paul claimed he was "set apart" at birth to reveal Yeshua,:

15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus. (Gal. 1:15-17 NIV.)

Paul claims to be crucified to the world:

14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which[a] the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. (Gal. 6:14 NIV.)

You misunderstand a lot of those scriptures sir. The first one, the suffering lacking, was lacking on Paul's part, not the lord's. I was led by the Spirit, and after the crucifixion and resurrection, there was a change in the law (Heb) so some things might read differently to the gospels. That is just they way it is.

 

[Robert.Evans]

A believer is still guilty of his sins. But God has covered the sins of the believer to the extent that the penalty for those sins under the law no longer has any effect. The penalty for the sins of those who believe in the redemptive work of God through His sacrifice of His Son is null and void. For them, the debt has been paid in full.

I agree, though I think it is important to mention that if we commit a serious sin, like murder, there is no redemption from that. I think it is 1 John that speaks of that.

 

[Sonofason]

I agree, though I think it is important to mention that if we commit a serious sin, like murder, there is no redemption from that. I think it is 1 John that speaks of that.

Indeed, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins"
(Hebrews 10:26)

 

[Simplelogic]

You misunderstand a lot of those scriptures sir. The first one, the suffering lacking, was lacking on Paul's part, not the lord's. I was led by the Spirit, and after the crucifixion and resurrection, there was a change in the law (Heb) so some things might read differently to the gospels. That is just they way it is.

That may be the way it is for you, but not me. The Torah is perfect and in no need of change:

The law (lit Torah) of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. Psalm 19: 7

Are we allowed to add or subtract from this perfect law?

"Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it. Deut 12: 32

Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you…Deut 4: 2

Did Yeshua teach the same thing?

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. (notice the word fulfill is contrasted by the word destroy…this means the opposite of destroy)

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law (lit Torah), till all be fulfilled. (what does "all be fulfilled" mean?…till heaven and earth pass!!)

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments (Torah commands), and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven (The word least is in reference to Paul who's name meant literally "least" in Greek)

: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5: 17-19 (Those who are great in Yeshua's kingdom are those who teach and preach the WHOLE Torah.)

 

[Simplelogic]

I agree, though I think it is important to mention that if we commit a serious sin, like murder, there is no redemption from that. I think it is 1 John that speaks of that.

Generally speaking you are correct in terms of human punishment. The Torah says that a murderer should be killed. However, it should be noted that Kind David committed murder and he fully repented. YHVH restored and forgave him completely. Murder does not seal ones spiritual destiny. Any man who turns from evil will be restored to YHVH.

 

[Simplelogic]

Of course not, and that is because there is no contradiction.

The law stands:
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
(Mathew 5:18)

And have heaven and earth passed away yet?

 

[Desert Snake]

Did Yeshua teach the same thing?

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. (notice the word fulfill is contrasted by the word destroy…this means the opposite of destroy)

'Fulfill' means to change the manner in which the laws are enacted. That's why later, in the NT, it is explained that the previous methods are not for Xians, /followers of Jesus. Not just not necessary, but not to be followed. As in against the teachings of Jesus to view the laws in the same manner. Some laws were kept, I believe, but others are mentioned explicitly as being laws not for Christians.

 

[Simplelogic]

'Fulfill' means to change the manner in which the laws are enacted. That's why later, in the NT, it is explained that the previous methods are not for Xians, /followers of Jesus. Not just not necessary, but not to be followed. As in against the teachings of Jesus to view the previous manner in following the laws in the same manner. Some laws were kept, I believe, but others are mentioned explicitly and firmly, as being laws not for Christians.

Ok…well lets look at the Greek word being used:

πληρῶσαι (plērōsai) - means to full up or to fill to the full

By "later in the NT" I assume you are referring to Paul. Not convinced.

No…fulfill does NOT mean to change. Its a serious reach to even throw that interpretation out there.

 

[Simplelogic]

Only satan is sinister enough to convince people that they don't need to follow God's laws anymore. Think about it.