Is Paul arrogant?

[Sonofason]

And have heaven and earth passed away yet?

Not yet.

 

[Simplelogic]

Not yet.

Then neither has the smallest jot or tittle passed from the law of Moses according to Yeshua.

 

[Sonofason]

Then neither has the smallest jot or tittle passed from the law of Moses according to Yeshua.

And that's what I've been saying all along.

 

[Simplelogic]

And that's what I've been saying all along.

you said:

"And the law is of no effect on believers.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."
(John 3:16-21)

This is not what John 3 is saying. You should look up the word which is translated as "believeth". It is the word pistis and it means to TRUST/OBEY.

Just look at part of the portion you quoted:

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." John 3: 21

What does it mean to "doeth truth"??? It means doing the Fathers will which is His Torah or Law of Moses.

 

[Robert.Evans]

That may be the way it is for you, but not me. The Torah is perfect and in no need of change:

The law (lit Torah) of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. Psalm 19: 7

Are we allowed to add or subtract from this perfect law?

"Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it. Deut 12: 32

Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you…Deut 4: 2

Did Yeshua teach the same thing?

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. (notice the word fulfill is contrasted by the word destroy…this means the opposite of destroy)

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law (lit Torah), till all be fulfilled. (what does "all be fulfilled" mean?…till heaven and earth pass!!)

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments (Torah commands), and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven (The word least is in reference to Paul who's name meant literally "least" in Greek)

: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5: 17-19 (Those who are great in Yeshua's kingdom are those who teach and preach the WHOLE Torah.)

That sure is a big topic. I am not disagreeing with you per se, even though that might fly in the face of what I have already said, but, even the Torah has to be interpreted. We must also consider that part of the Torah might not be part of the original law at all, and may be insertion by man, hence the title, Mosaic law.

 

[Robert.Evans]

And have heaven and earth passed away yet?

But it also says ''until everything is accomplished'' which was at the crucifixion

 

[Simplelogic]

But it also says ''until everything is accomplished'' which was at the crucifixion

So you just dismiss the heaven and earth statement then?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Generally speaking you are correct in terms of human punishment. The Torah says that a murderer should be killed.

It also says do not kill. So that flies in the face of that law. And if God gives a law of death, how then does he repeal it?

However, it should be noted that Kind David committed murder and he fully repented. YHVH restored and forgave him completely.

You will have to remind me of that passage, I am rusty on them.

Murder does not seal ones spiritual destiny. Any man who turns from evil will be restored to YHVH.

That is debatable. Though the point I was making was that when one is baptised in Holy Spirit, you are not allowed to commit serious crimes like murder

 

[Robert.Evans]

So you just dismiss the heaven and earth statement then?

The point of the passage is to say that nothing will change until everything is fullfield. It has been at the crucifixion.

 

[Simplelogic]

It also says do not kill. So that flies in the face of that law. And if God gives a law of death, how then does he repeal it?

You will have to remind me of that passage, I am rusty on them.

That is debatable. Though the point I was making was that when one is baptised in Holy Spirit, you are not allowed to commit serious crimes like murder

The Torah does not forbid killing but murder. Two very different concepts.

Regarding King David's adultery and murder see 2 Samuel 11

 

[Robert.Evans]

Only satan is sinister enough to convince people that they don't need to follow God's laws anymore. Think about it.

But you can't keep the Jewish Torah anyway.. for one, they don't have a temple! so how would they sacrifice

 

[Simplelogic]

The point of the passage is to say that nothing will change until everything is fullfield. It has been at the crucifixion.

Actually that was not the point. Yeshua was trying to make the case that he was not abolishing the Torah but upholding it "until heaven and earth pass away"…or "until all is fulfilled". This is the obvious point of the text. Just look at the following words of Yeshua:

Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5: 19

Do you really believe that these words were only relevant until the cross???? Are we really to believe that Yeshua only meant we are to keep the Torah for one more year??

 

[Robert.Evans]

The Torah does not forbid killing but murder. Two very different concepts.

Regarding King David's adultery and murder see 2 Samuel 11

That depends on who you listen to. There is a Rabbi who says that Ex20 should mean not killing, hurting, inflicting pain etc. Otherwise we come can come out with the absurdity of being able to beat someone into a coma and think it was fine because he was still alive on a life support machine!
Thanks for the citation.

 

[Simplelogic]

But you can't keep the Jewish Torah anyway.. for one, they don't have a temple! so how would they sacrifice

Much of the Torah can still be kept. When the Temple comes back we will be able to keep all of it again. Until heaven and earth pass away.

 

[Simplelogic]

That depends on who you listen to. There is a Rabbi who says that Ex20 should mean not killing, hurting, inflicting pain etc. Otherwise we come can come out with the absurdity of being able to beat someone into a coma and think it was fine because he was still alive on a life support machine!
Thanks for the citation.

YHVH Himself commands killing in numerous places in the Bible so.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Actually that was not the point. Yeshua was trying to make the case that he was not abolishing the Torah but upholding it "until heaven and earth pass away"…or "until all is fulfilled". This is the obvious point of the text. Just look at the following words of Yeshua:

Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt 5: 19

Do you really believe that these words were only relevant until the cross???? Are we really to believe that Yeshua only meant we are to keep the Torah for one more year??

Well the Jewish interpretation of the law is not always right. For instance, circumcision was of the heart not the flesh as they thought. The OT is shadows and types of things to come, not the reality. No one, as Paul tells us, could keep it.

So the law understood, yes, it has to be kept. But only when understood.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Much of the Torah can still be kept. When the Temple comes back we will be able to keep all of it again. Until heaven and earth pass away.

But it is not being kept now...
anyway, I have to go now. Late here. Pick it up tomorrow if you leave anything.

 

[Sonofason]

you said:

"And the law is of no effect on believers.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."
(John 3:16-21)

This is not what John 3 is saying. You should look up the word which is translated as "believeth". It is the word pistis and it means to TRUST/OBEY.

Just look at part of the portion you quoted:

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." John 3: 21

What does it mean to "doeth truth"??? It means doing the Fathers will which is His Torah or Law of Moses.

I agree. Jesus said,
"If ye love me, keep my commandments.
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
(John 14:15-17)

I agree if we believe in God's Son, we will obey Him. And of course the Law has no effect on those who are abiding in Christ.

 

[Simplelogic]

I agree. Jesus said,
"If ye love me, keep my commandments.
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
(John 14:15-17)

I agree if we believe in God's Son, we will obey Him. And of course the Law has no effect on those who are abiding in Christ.

Actually it will. You said it yourself "if you love me, keep my commandments".

 

[b.finton]

Mark 4:34 and 1 Cor. 2:7.

b.