Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Completely unrelated verses IMHO.
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Is Paul arrogant?
- Thread starter Simplelogic
- Start date
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
Please explain how a person abiding in Christ is subject to the law's of Moses?
b.finton
In the Unity of Faith
If the Mark quote is true, then the explanations of parables are, themselves, parables. As with the master, so with the servants.
When I studied scripture, I took no word literally: not one word of it. The literal sense is pshat, and it is that sense that is nailed to the cross. What is true of the Hebrew writings is equally true of the Greek writings.
Mystery writing, as a genre? The Fathers started it. The Sons finished it off with a flourish. The first commandment/saying: that's the tough one!
b.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
and only Satan would be sinister enough to make them think the mosaic law is the way to salvation rather then faith in the Christ.
Think about it.
Robert.Evans
You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
They are related because Yahshuah always spoke in parables, (so they may not seem to line up with other later writings of Paul's) and Paul himself said he was revealing the things that had been hidden. So related.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away." - Mt 24:35; Lu 21:33; Mark 13:31
These 3 passages are parallel accounts of Jesus prophesy first leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E and later to a great tribulation on a global scale. Much like Isa 65:17 and Isa 66:22 had a fulfillment of a new heavens and new earth in the resettlement of Jerusalem under Cyrus the Great, Governor Ze-rub'ba-bal and High Priest Joshua, these words symbolize a change in government and of those governed. (See also 2Pe 3:13; Rev 21:1 regarding the global fulfillment soon to come).
"Indeed, it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away then for one stroke of a letter of the Law to go unfulfilled." - Lu 16:17
"Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill. Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one stroke of a letter to pass away from the Law until all things take place." - Mt 5:17,18
This is the physical heavens and earth, and these are examples of hyperbole - that is an illustration that uses an exaggeration to drive home a point. Since entropy will never be allowed to cause the starry sky and earth to fall into ruin, it is the equivalent of saying 'never.' (Ps 148:4-6) Never could the Law go unfulfilled.
"But what does the expression “to fulfill” mean? To illustrate: A builder fulfills a contract to complete a building, not by ripping up the contract, but by finishing the structure. However, once the work has been completed to the client’s satisfaction, the contract is fulfilled and the builder is no longer under obligation to it. Likewise, Jesus did not break, or rip up, the Law; rather, he fulfilled it by keeping it perfectly. Once fulfilled, that Law “contract” was no longer binding on God’s people." - The Watchtower, Feb. 1, 2010 ed., p.13
This understanding matches what is found in Paul's writings.
These 3 passages are parallel accounts of Jesus prophesy first leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E and later to a great tribulation on a global scale. Much like Isa 65:17 and Isa 66:22 had a fulfillment of a new heavens and new earth in the resettlement of Jerusalem under Cyrus the Great, Governor Ze-rub'ba-bal and High Priest Joshua, these words symbolize a change in government and of those governed. (See also 2Pe 3:13; Rev 21:1 regarding the global fulfillment soon to come).
"Indeed, it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away then for one stroke of a letter of the Law to go unfulfilled." - Lu 16:17
"Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill. Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one stroke of a letter to pass away from the Law until all things take place." - Mt 5:17,18
This is the physical heavens and earth, and these are examples of hyperbole - that is an illustration that uses an exaggeration to drive home a point. Since entropy will never be allowed to cause the starry sky and earth to fall into ruin, it is the equivalent of saying 'never.' (Ps 148:4-6) Never could the Law go unfulfilled.
"But what does the expression “to fulfill” mean? To illustrate: A builder fulfills a contract to complete a building, not by ripping up the contract, but by finishing the structure. However, once the work has been completed to the client’s satisfaction, the contract is fulfilled and the builder is no longer under obligation to it. Likewise, Jesus did not break, or rip up, the Law; rather, he fulfilled it by keeping it perfectly. Once fulfilled, that Law “contract” was no longer binding on God’s people." - The Watchtower, Feb. 1, 2010 ed., p.13
This understanding matches what is found in Paul's writings.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Completely unrelated verses IMHO.
Yet we have many of Yeshua's words which were not spoken in parables and spoken only to the twelve so…
It is a moot point anyways because Paul was not one of those twelve who spoke with Yeshua. Paul never met Yeshua.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Why? They are YHVH's commands? Why would following exactly what God says be a negative thing?
Wouldn't following YHVH's ways be a pretty good indicator of a persons heart??
I guess you need to throw away these verses:
And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us. Deut 6: 25
but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments Deut 5:10
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Exo 20:6
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev 22:14
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
Yes Saul killed Christians but by the grace of God he became Paul the evangelist.
Ro 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
Please read and understand:
What Christians are experiencing as far as persecutions –of body and mind and spiritual- like what Paul and the other apostles had experienced by preaching the gospel is what Paul meant by “fill up on my part that which is lacking [where the reference is not to the vicarious sufferings of Christ, but] of the afflictions of Christ [from which Christ’s followers must not shrink, whether sufferings of body or mind or spiritual] in my/Christians flesh for his body's sake, which is the church;”
Every time the apostles and Christians today preach the gospel and persecuted by preaching it they are filling up [being persecuted -body, mind, and spirit] which was intended for Christ. IOW, they are persecuting Christians as if they are Christ Himself or “the body of Christ, which is the church”.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Ughhh. Do you really believe this? I must suffer to complete "Christ's" sufferings??? This is typical pagan self sacrificial, cult logic. Yeshua's sacrifice was good enough.
JM2C
CHRISTIAN
NO! You misunderstood me. As Paul and others were preaching the gospel they were encountering people who opposed to this kind of teachings, like you, and this is the kind of persecution that I was talking about. In this forum alone, when it comes to a certain religion, Christians or Christianity, were challenged more than any other religion.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Paul was an arrogant man who was full of false humility:
9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. (1 Cor. 15:9-10 NIV.)
11 I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,”[a] even though I am nothing. 12 I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles. (2 Cor. 12:11-12 NIV.)
What a crock. Anyone with half a brain can see just how self absorbed this man is. He was obviously angry with these "super apostles". Just look at this long rant, full of boasts and arrogance:
21 To my shame I admit that we were too weak for that!
Whatever anyone else dares to boast about—I am speaking as a fool—I also dare to boast about. 22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham’s descendants? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder,been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one.25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28 Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn? 2 Corinthians 11:21-29 NIV
Such humility. How could any man not see just how beautiful of a person Paul really was? No wonder James (Yeshua's brother) says this:
James 3:5: Don't Boast!
b.finton
In the Unity of Faith
"... the Anointed" (within you) "is the end of the law..." Inaccurate translation! It should read "...is the goal/objective/result/consummation of the law..."
I love Torah and the Writings and all inspired texts they have engendered by the will of HaShem, many of which have been altered or rejected by religious establishments. Nothing of the sacred will pass away until the vision they foretell is accomplished: on Earth as in the heavens-- in our bodies and minds, most significantly.
The letter of the law accuses my image of self-righteousness while inviting me to standards of behavior I had not considered possible. Stealing? Lots of ways to do that, etc., etc., down the line in all that is written. My mind can't hold them all. It just can't. A spiritual fix is required-- an alignment, an engulfment, an infusion that suffuses. All I know of me must cease to be, so that I can become as HaShem has fashioned me to be from the beginning. "Turn us, and we shall be turned!" pleads the prophet.
Sons and daughters, we're invited to become One in the Spirit, the Unity whose Name is well known. By (His) hand we are drawn to the Perfect Door/Interface, which is the Projection/Son of YH. That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.
So why is pshat, the literal sense of Torah, nailed to the cross? Because of some disparagement or other? No. It's triumph! The end/goal of the written word and its Living Utterance within our hearts is at hand. The shout of the Kingdom of Names grows louder in our hearts every day.
Barak-El.
b.
I love Torah and the Writings and all inspired texts they have engendered by the will of HaShem, many of which have been altered or rejected by religious establishments. Nothing of the sacred will pass away until the vision they foretell is accomplished: on Earth as in the heavens-- in our bodies and minds, most significantly.
The letter of the law accuses my image of self-righteousness while inviting me to standards of behavior I had not considered possible. Stealing? Lots of ways to do that, etc., etc., down the line in all that is written. My mind can't hold them all. It just can't. A spiritual fix is required-- an alignment, an engulfment, an infusion that suffuses. All I know of me must cease to be, so that I can become as HaShem has fashioned me to be from the beginning. "Turn us, and we shall be turned!" pleads the prophet.
Sons and daughters, we're invited to become One in the Spirit, the Unity whose Name is well known. By (His) hand we are drawn to the Perfect Door/Interface, which is the Projection/Son of YH. That which is born of the flesh is flesh. That which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.
So why is pshat, the literal sense of Torah, nailed to the cross? Because of some disparagement or other? No. It's triumph! The end/goal of the written word and its Living Utterance within our hearts is at hand. The shout of the Kingdom of Names grows louder in our hearts every day.
Barak-El.
b.
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Kolibri
Well-Known Member
It is time I got back to this complaint about Paul's boasts. How did Paul himself indicate about how he felt about boasting in this very case?
"I have become unreasonable. You compelled me to, for I ought to have been recommended by you. For I did not prove to be inferior to your superfine apostles in a single thing, even if I am nothing. Indeed, the signs of an apostle were produced among you with great endurance, and by signs and wonders (or "portents.") and powerful works. For how were you less favored than the rest of the congregations, except that I myself did not become a burden to you? Kindly forgive me for this wrong." - 2Co 12:11-13
"Are they ministers of Christ? I reply like a madman, I am more outstandingly one:" - 2Co 11:23 (Or, "I reply like someone 'out of his mind'").
So why was Paul taking such a boastful approach when he knew it would normally to be wrong? Was he being egotistical? No. Note how this discussion begins in the beginning of chapter 11:
"I wish you would put up with me in a little unreasonableness. But, in fact, you are putting up with me! For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy, (Lit., "God's zeal.") for I personally promised you in marriage to one husband that I might present you as a chaste (or "pure.") virgin to the Christ. But I am afraid that somehow that someone, as the serpent seduced Eve by its cunning, your minds might be corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity (or "purity.") that are due the Christ. For as it is, if someone comes and preaches a Jesus other than the one we preached, or you receive a spirit other than what you received, or good news other than what you accepted, you easily put up with him. For I consider that I have not proved inferior to your superfine apostles in a single thing. But even if I am unskilled in speech, (2Co 10:10) I certainly am not in knowledge; indeed we made it clear to you in every way and in everything."
What were these ones that Paul sarcastically called superfine apostles doing? Deviating from the truth about Jesus. What else were they doing? Denigrating Paul as a way of recommending themselves, much like a haughty person will boast about themselves and also destroy someone else reputation to make themselves look good.
"For they say: 'His letters are weighty and forceful, but his presence in person is weak and his speech contemptible.' Let such a man consider that what we say (Lit., "what we are in word.") by letters when absent, this we will also do (Lit., "also be in action.") when present. For we do not dare to class ourselves or compare ourselves with some who recommend themselves. but when they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are without understanding." (Pr 26:12) - 2Co 10:10-12
"'But the one who boasts, let him boast in Jehovah.' (Jer 9:24) For it is not the one who recommends himself who is approved, (Lu 18:10-14) but the one whom Jehovah recommends." - 2Co 10:17,18
So why was Paul not keeping silent? Why was he boasting in return? He states his reason.
"But what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to eliminate the pretext of those who are wanting a basis (or "pretext.") for being found equal to us in the things (or "the office.") about which they boast. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. (Ro 16:17,18) And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works." - 2Co 11:12-15
"Since you are so 'reasonable,' you gladly put up with the unreasonable ones. In fact, you put up with whoever enslaves you, whoever devours your possessions, whoever grabs what you have, whoever exalts himself over you, and whoever strikes you in the face." - 2Co 11:19.20
Paul was acting out of love to expose these predators that the Corinthians were putting up with in their pride in being reasonable. The holy ones were lacking balance and had to be shown definitively that they needed to protect themselves from these narcissistic "superfine apostles."
"I have become unreasonable. You compelled me to, for I ought to have been recommended by you. For I did not prove to be inferior to your superfine apostles in a single thing, even if I am nothing. Indeed, the signs of an apostle were produced among you with great endurance, and by signs and wonders (or "portents.") and powerful works. For how were you less favored than the rest of the congregations, except that I myself did not become a burden to you? Kindly forgive me for this wrong." - 2Co 12:11-13
"Are they ministers of Christ? I reply like a madman, I am more outstandingly one:" - 2Co 11:23 (Or, "I reply like someone 'out of his mind'").
So why was Paul taking such a boastful approach when he knew it would normally to be wrong? Was he being egotistical? No. Note how this discussion begins in the beginning of chapter 11:
"I wish you would put up with me in a little unreasonableness. But, in fact, you are putting up with me! For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy, (Lit., "God's zeal.") for I personally promised you in marriage to one husband that I might present you as a chaste (or "pure.") virgin to the Christ. But I am afraid that somehow that someone, as the serpent seduced Eve by its cunning, your minds might be corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity (or "purity.") that are due the Christ. For as it is, if someone comes and preaches a Jesus other than the one we preached, or you receive a spirit other than what you received, or good news other than what you accepted, you easily put up with him. For I consider that I have not proved inferior to your superfine apostles in a single thing. But even if I am unskilled in speech, (2Co 10:10) I certainly am not in knowledge; indeed we made it clear to you in every way and in everything."
What were these ones that Paul sarcastically called superfine apostles doing? Deviating from the truth about Jesus. What else were they doing? Denigrating Paul as a way of recommending themselves, much like a haughty person will boast about themselves and also destroy someone else reputation to make themselves look good.
"For they say: 'His letters are weighty and forceful, but his presence in person is weak and his speech contemptible.' Let such a man consider that what we say (Lit., "what we are in word.") by letters when absent, this we will also do (Lit., "also be in action.") when present. For we do not dare to class ourselves or compare ourselves with some who recommend themselves. but when they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are without understanding." (Pr 26:12) - 2Co 10:10-12
"'But the one who boasts, let him boast in Jehovah.' (Jer 9:24) For it is not the one who recommends himself who is approved, (Lu 18:10-14) but the one whom Jehovah recommends." - 2Co 10:17,18
So why was Paul not keeping silent? Why was he boasting in return? He states his reason.
"But what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to eliminate the pretext of those who are wanting a basis (or "pretext.") for being found equal to us in the things (or "the office.") about which they boast. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. (Ro 16:17,18) And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works." - 2Co 11:12-15
"Since you are so 'reasonable,' you gladly put up with the unreasonable ones. In fact, you put up with whoever enslaves you, whoever devours your possessions, whoever grabs what you have, whoever exalts himself over you, and whoever strikes you in the face." - 2Co 11:19.20
Paul was acting out of love to expose these predators that the Corinthians were putting up with in their pride in being reasonable. The holy ones were lacking balance and had to be shown definitively that they needed to protect themselves from these narcissistic "superfine apostles."
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Kolibri
Well-Known Member
Was Paul attempting to establish his one righteousness by applying the term apostle to him? Was he trying to supplant the Twelve?
Apostle — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
/quote
The Greek word a·po′sto·los is derived from the common verb a·po·stel′lo, meaning simply “send forth (or off).” (Mt 10:5; Mr 11:3) Its basic sense is clearly illustrated in Jesus’ statement: “A slave is not greater than his master, nor is one that is sent forth [a·po′sto·los] greater than the one that sent him.” (Joh 13:16) In this sense the word also applies to Christ Jesus as “the apostle and high priest whom we confess.” (Heb 3:1; compare Mt 10:40; 15:24; Lu 4:18, 43; 9:48; 10:16; Joh 3:17; 5:36, 38; 6:29, 57; 7:29; 8:42; 10:36; 11:42; 17:3, 8, 18, 21-25; 20:21.) Jesus was sent forth by God as his appointed and commissioned representative.
-----
Their primary function as apostles was to be witnesses as to Jesus’ fulfillment of Jehovah God’s purposes and prophecies, particularly of his resurrection and exaltation, and to do a discipling work among all nations; and this commission was emphasized to them by Jesus just before his ascension to heaven. (Mt 28:19, 20; Ac 1:8, 22; 2:32-36; 3:15-26) Their testimony concerning the resurrection was that of eyewitnesses.—Ac 13:30-34.
-----
The apostles, therefore, served as a foundation, resting on Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone, for the building up of the “holy temple for Jehovah.” (Eph 2:20-22; 1Pe 2:4-6)
-----
Congregational Apostleships. Matthias was not a mere apostle of the Jerusalem congregation, any more than the remaining 11 apostles were. His case is different from that of the Levite Joseph Barnabas who became an apostle of the congregation of Antioch, Syria. (Ac 13:1-4; 14:4, 14; 1Co 9:4-6) Other men also are referred to as “apostles of congregations” in the sense that they were sent forth by such congregations to represent them. (2Co 8:23) And, in writing to the Philippians, Paul speaks of Epaphroditus as “your envoy [a·po′sto·lon] and private servant for my need.” (Php 2:25) The apostleship of these men was clearly not by virtue of any apostolic succession, nor did they form part of “the twelve” as did Matthias.
The correct understanding of the wider application of the term “apostle” can help to clear away any apparent discrepancy between Acts 9:26, 27 and Galatians 1:17-19, when applied to the same occasion. The first account states that Paul, on arriving in Jerusalem, was led “to the apostles” by Barnabas. In the account in Galatians, however, Paul states that he visited with Peter and adds: “But I saw no one else of the apostles, only James the brother of the Lord.” James (not the original apostle James the son of Zebedee nor James the son of Alphaeus, but the half brother of Jesus) was evidently viewed as an “apostle” in the wider sense, namely, as “one sent forth” by the Jerusalem congregation. This would allow for the Acts account to use the title in the plural in saying that Paul was led “to the apostles” (that is, Peter and James).—Compare 1Co 15:5-7; Ga 2:9.
The Selection of Paul. Probably about the year 34 C.E., Saul of Tarsus was converted and is later referred to as Paul. He did become a true apostle of Jesus Christ and was the direct choice of the resurrected and ascended Jesus Christ. (Ac 9:1-22; 22:6-21; 26:12-23; 13:9) He argued on behalf of his apostleship and presented as his qualification the fact that he had seen the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, that he had performed miracles, and that he had served as a channel for imparting the holy spirit to baptized believers. (1Co 9:1, 2; 15:9, 10; 2Co 12:12; 2Ti 1:1, 11; Ro 1:1; 11:13; Ac 19:5, 6) Since the apostle James (the brother of John) was not killed until about the year 44 C.E., “the twelve” were yet alive at the time of Paul’s becoming an apostle. He nowhere includes himself among such “twelve,” while at the same time he acknowledges no inferiority in his apostleship compared with that of such ones.—Ga 2:6-9.
/endquote
I leave it to anyone who wants to to look at the article in the link as they wish. But it is evident that Paul saw himself as one personally sent forth by Jesus to the nations. And he referred to Jesus himself as an apostle in Hebrew 3:1. And the term was applied to others besides the Twelve without taking anything away from their position as foundation stones laid upon the chief cornerstone.
Apostle — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
/quote
The Greek word a·po′sto·los is derived from the common verb a·po·stel′lo, meaning simply “send forth (or off).” (Mt 10:5; Mr 11:3) Its basic sense is clearly illustrated in Jesus’ statement: “A slave is not greater than his master, nor is one that is sent forth [a·po′sto·los] greater than the one that sent him.” (Joh 13:16) In this sense the word also applies to Christ Jesus as “the apostle and high priest whom we confess.” (Heb 3:1; compare Mt 10:40; 15:24; Lu 4:18, 43; 9:48; 10:16; Joh 3:17; 5:36, 38; 6:29, 57; 7:29; 8:42; 10:36; 11:42; 17:3, 8, 18, 21-25; 20:21.) Jesus was sent forth by God as his appointed and commissioned representative.
-----
Their primary function as apostles was to be witnesses as to Jesus’ fulfillment of Jehovah God’s purposes and prophecies, particularly of his resurrection and exaltation, and to do a discipling work among all nations; and this commission was emphasized to them by Jesus just before his ascension to heaven. (Mt 28:19, 20; Ac 1:8, 22; 2:32-36; 3:15-26) Their testimony concerning the resurrection was that of eyewitnesses.—Ac 13:30-34.
-----
The apostles, therefore, served as a foundation, resting on Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone, for the building up of the “holy temple for Jehovah.” (Eph 2:20-22; 1Pe 2:4-6)
-----
Congregational Apostleships. Matthias was not a mere apostle of the Jerusalem congregation, any more than the remaining 11 apostles were. His case is different from that of the Levite Joseph Barnabas who became an apostle of the congregation of Antioch, Syria. (Ac 13:1-4; 14:4, 14; 1Co 9:4-6) Other men also are referred to as “apostles of congregations” in the sense that they were sent forth by such congregations to represent them. (2Co 8:23) And, in writing to the Philippians, Paul speaks of Epaphroditus as “your envoy [a·po′sto·lon] and private servant for my need.” (Php 2:25) The apostleship of these men was clearly not by virtue of any apostolic succession, nor did they form part of “the twelve” as did Matthias.
The correct understanding of the wider application of the term “apostle” can help to clear away any apparent discrepancy between Acts 9:26, 27 and Galatians 1:17-19, when applied to the same occasion. The first account states that Paul, on arriving in Jerusalem, was led “to the apostles” by Barnabas. In the account in Galatians, however, Paul states that he visited with Peter and adds: “But I saw no one else of the apostles, only James the brother of the Lord.” James (not the original apostle James the son of Zebedee nor James the son of Alphaeus, but the half brother of Jesus) was evidently viewed as an “apostle” in the wider sense, namely, as “one sent forth” by the Jerusalem congregation. This would allow for the Acts account to use the title in the plural in saying that Paul was led “to the apostles” (that is, Peter and James).—Compare 1Co 15:5-7; Ga 2:9.
The Selection of Paul. Probably about the year 34 C.E., Saul of Tarsus was converted and is later referred to as Paul. He did become a true apostle of Jesus Christ and was the direct choice of the resurrected and ascended Jesus Christ. (Ac 9:1-22; 22:6-21; 26:12-23; 13:9) He argued on behalf of his apostleship and presented as his qualification the fact that he had seen the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, that he had performed miracles, and that he had served as a channel for imparting the holy spirit to baptized believers. (1Co 9:1, 2; 15:9, 10; 2Co 12:12; 2Ti 1:1, 11; Ro 1:1; 11:13; Ac 19:5, 6) Since the apostle James (the brother of John) was not killed until about the year 44 C.E., “the twelve” were yet alive at the time of Paul’s becoming an apostle. He nowhere includes himself among such “twelve,” while at the same time he acknowledges no inferiority in his apostleship compared with that of such ones.—Ga 2:6-9.
/endquote
I leave it to anyone who wants to to look at the article in the link as they wish. But it is evident that Paul saw himself as one personally sent forth by Jesus to the nations. And he referred to Jesus himself as an apostle in Hebrew 3:1. And the term was applied to others besides the Twelve without taking anything away from their position as foundation stones laid upon the chief cornerstone.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
One could apply that as an application but I am totally unaware of any scripture that highlights any symbolism attached to that particular crown. May have just been symbol of the Romans mocking him as they did in dressing him in royal attire.
b.finton
In the Unity of Faith
The householders with which you are familiar bring forth nothing new from their treasures?
b.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
Much of the time I don't get a chance to talk about these particular subjects with others that I meet in our public ministry. I can honestly say that the crown from a potentially symbolic point of view has not come up. That truly is new to me. Is there any scripture to point to that will substantiate the teaching?
In general, I find that those that are content with what they have and do not want to take the time to discuss, and when we do, it along topics we both know very well with particularly opposite conclusions.
I do get new treasures from those I study with, but usually it is in watching how 'the truth' transforms lives as they build on their trust that Jehovah is personally interested in them. It prompts me to think about "what progress in my own faith have I made recently?"
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