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Is Paul arrogant?

J

JoStories

Well-Known Member
sojourner said:
I don't believe the claims, themselves, so much as I believe that Paul is sincere and authoritative in making those claims. I believe Paul's sincerity and authority because the church has given him that authority.
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So, in your views, anything that the church holds to be true is true, non? What if they hold that eating purple rice everyday would lead to heaven? Are you going to believe that has authority? The church is nothing more than a bunch of men who decided what was to be held as true and they disregard what doesn't fit their agendas. IMO, that is the very definition of circular reasoning.
 
J

JoStories

Well-Known Member
sojourner said:
If sin were a disqualifier, There would be no biblical writings.

Remember: the canon wasn't settled until almost 400 years following Paul. By then his reputation as a reformed man of God was well established.
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sojourner said:
Only if we accept the word of those who stated he was a man of God, mostly by his own writings. The fact that they accepted them; his writings, merely points to the fact that they found that they fit the Church's agenda.
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J

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Nakosis said:
A power grab for what? Being mocked and imprisoned?
I suspect he'd have renounced his belief for all the grief it gave him.
It doesn't seem unusual to me that he had his vision, had a change of consciousness and felt he was being guided by God. It happens to people.
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But doesn't his having been mocked and imprisoned add to the story of Paul himself?? The Church fathers might have thought that a martyr would add to the draw of the faith they wanted established. Do you have outside corroboration that he was mocked or imprisoned?
 
J

JoStories

Well-Known Member
sojourner said:
His contemporaries obviously thought differently, as well as subsequent two thousand years of fellow Christians.
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That doesn't mean it has any validity. It only means that people accept what he allegedly wrote or said as truth. And clearly the Church had input into what they wanted people to believe.
 
leibowde84

leibowde84

Veteran Member
sojourner said:
His contemporaries obviously thought differently, as well as subsequent two thousand years of fellow Christians.
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People were a lot more gullible back then. And, Paul pretty much formed the Church in general, so once it got started, there was no turning back.
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
JoStories said:
So, in your views, anything that the church holds to be true is true, non? What if they hold that eating purple rice everyday would lead to heaven? Are you going to believe that has authority? The church is nothing more than a bunch of men who decided what was to be held as true and they disregard what doesn't fit their agendas. IMO, that is the very definition of circular reasoning.
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The church wrote, edited, and canonized the gospels. Are they true?
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
"Only if we accept the word of those who stated he was a man of God, mostly by his own writings. The fact that they accepted them; his writings, merely points to the fact that they found that they fit the Church's agenda."

Isn't that what I said? Isn't that also true of the gospels and EVERYTHING we "know" about Jesus?
 
sojourner

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
JoStories said:
That doesn't mean it has any validity. It only means that people accept what he allegedly wrote or said as truth. And clearly the Church had input into what they wanted people to believe.
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Again: the church formed Jesus in their image, too.
 
Nakosis

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
JoStories said:
But doesn't his having been mocked and imprisoned add to the story of Paul himself?? The Church fathers might have thought that a martyr would add to the draw of the faith they wanted established. Do you have outside corroboration that he was mocked or imprisoned?
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Outside Acts and his own letters? No, I suppose that means you can believe whatever you wish about his motivations. If you're more comfortable seeing Paul as an evil dude, there's nothing stopping you.

Somehow, however, he was able to bring his Christianity to Rome. I'd imagine that took a lot of passion and perseverance. A lot of belief in his calling as he saw it. Maybe he wanted notoriety but that doesn't prevent him from also having passion for his faith.

You think he was insincere about his faith. He put a lot of effort into something he was insincere about. That's something people don't usually do. You have to manufacture some ulterior motive. If you go down that road, you can make Paul out to be who ever you want him to be.
 
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