Is Paul arrogant?

[leibowde84]

I don't see Paul as arrogant, just certain of his leadership. If you're going to lead, you got to provide the folks with a sense of certainty. You accept the role of leadership and whether right or wrong, you got to lead.

It's not like Paul had the gospels in hand to reference. He was relying on whatever his "spiritual intuition" said.

His was capable of being mistaken like anyone, that doesn't make him evil.

Why are you just taking his word for it though. The entire point is that his story could have been a fabrication that the early Christians were more easily able to accept, as supernatural interactions were commonplace and commonly accepted back then.

 

[Nakosis]

Why are you just taking his word for it though. The entire point is that his story could have been a fabrication that the early Christians were more easily able to accept, as supernatural interactions were commonplace and commonly accepted back then.

I don't. I'm more relying on my understanding of human nature. I'm not saying Paul was right or wrong, just that I suspect this was true of his motivations.

 

[leibowde84]

I don't. I'm more relying on my understanding of human nature. I'm not saying Paul was right or wrong, just that I suspect this was true of his motivations.

I am asking why you think his motivation was true? I've studied the man quite a bit and I still can't figure out why more don't see it as more of a power grab.

 

[Nakosis]

I am asking why you think his motivation was true? I've studied the man quite a bit and I still can't figure out why more don't see it as more of a power grab.

A power grab for what? Being mocked and imprisoned?
I suspect he'd have renounced his belief for all the grief it gave him.
It doesn't seem unusual to me that he had his vision, had a change of consciousness and felt he was being guided by God. It happens to people.

 

[sojourner]

Why are you just taking his word for it though. The entire point is that his story could have been a fabrication that the early Christians were more easily able to accept, as supernatural interactions were commonplace and commonly accepted back then.

Why take John's word for it? Why take anyone's word for it? It's the sense of the community that bestow authority.

 

[leibowde84]

A power grab for what? Being mocked and imprisoned?
I suspect he'd have renounced his belief for all the grief it gave him.
It doesn't seem unusual to me that he had his vision, had a change of consciousness and felt he was being guided by God. It happens to people.

Back then legacy was everything. He wanted notariety. I'm not saying it is fact, just a possinility.

 

[leibowde84]

Why take John's word for it? Why take anyone's word for it? It's the sense of the community that bestow authority.

That's fine. But everyone should have their own explanation. It deserves scrutiny. That's all I'm saying. Same goes for the whole Bible. But, Paul's story is particularly hard to believe, as he never met Jesus, but claimed to speak for him.

 

[sojourner]

That's fine. But everyone should have their own explanation. It deserves scrutiny. That's all I'm saying. Same goes for the whole Bible. But, Paul's story is particularly hard to believe, as he never met Jesus, but claimed to speak for him.

So has every apostle since...

 

[leibowde84]

So has every apostle since...

Without the "vision with shaking that no one else with him saw" story though.

 

[Nakosis]

Back then legacy was everything. He wanted notariety. I'm not saying it is fact, just a possinility.

Obviously we can't say with certainty what motivated him.

I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, unless I know something otherwise. Though I've fantasied before that Paul was a secret agent of the Pharisee sent to infiltrate and disrupt the early Christian movement.

 

[sojourner]

Without the "vision with shaking that no one else with him saw" story though.

So? Paul didn't have the benefit of the institution of apostolic succession, either.

 

[leibowde84]

So? Paul didn't have the benefit of the institution of apostolic succession, either.

That's my point. Yet another reason why he had to make it up

 

[sojourner]

That's my point. Yet another reason why he had to make it up

Why did he have to "make it up?" He went out and started a lot of churches. That's what apostles do. The Jerusalem apostles accepted him as an apostle. That's what Paul is. What else do you need?

 

[leibowde84]

Why did he have to "make it up?" He went out and started a lot of churches. That's what apostles do. The Jerusalem apostles accepted him as an apostle. That's what Paul is. What else do you need?

I don't think Paul had any authority to speak for Jesus, as he never knew the man. So, I don't think there is anything he could have done.

 

[sojourner]

I don't think Paul had any authority to speak for Jesus, as he never knew the man. So, I don't think there is anything he could have done.

His contemporaries obviously thought differently, as well as subsequent two thousand years of fellow Christians.

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

A repost I did on another topic.

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
Paul the self-appointed apostle.

Adolph Hitler-Appointed by God
Joseph Stalin-Appointed by God
Kim Jong il-Appointed by God
Ho Chi Minh-Appointed by God
Saddam Hussein-Appointed by God
Pol Pot-Appointed by God
And on and on......

"For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil." What a bunch of crap.

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

His contemporaries obviously thought differently, as well as subsequent two thousand years of fellow Christians.

"2000 years of Christians", but not followers of Jesus.

 

[sojourner]

A repost I did on another topic.

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
Paul the self-appointed apostle.

Adolph Hitler-Appointed by God
Joseph Stalin-Appointed by God
Kim Jong il-Appointed by God
Ho Chi Minh-Appointed by God
Saddam Hussein-Appointed by God
Pol Pot-Appointed by God
And on and on......

"For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil." What a bunch of crap.

Jesus - appointed by God.

See?

Bunch of crap indeed.

 

[sojourner]

"2000 years of Christians", but not followers of Jesus.

They're one and the same. Unless you're one of those people who suffer from the delusion that only those who believe as you do are "real" Xtians.

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

Jesus - appointed by God.

See?

Bunch of crap indeed.

Adolph Hitler-Appointed by God
Joseph Stalin-Appointed by God
Kim Jong il-Appointed by God
Ho Chi Minh-Appointed by God
Saddam Hussein-Appointed by God
Pol Pot-Appointed by God

Jesus - appointed by God.

See?

Bunch of crap indeed.

Jesus was not a governing authority. But the above mentioned were. Paul would approve of them. Jesus would not, according to their different "gospels".