DeitySlayer
President of Chindia
Joseph must have been so ****** off on his wedding night
Just sitting by himself outside the bedroom...."Are you done yet, God?"
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Is premarital sex a good, a bad, or a nuetral event in terms of ethics and of effect?
- Thread starter dust1n
- Start date
Joseph must have been so ****** off on his wedding night
Just sitting by himself outside the bedroom...."Are you done yet, God?"
This really doesn't help your argument any. I am a mother with four teenaged kids. I am well aware of MY experiences and have remarkably different sentiments than you do.
Plus, studies indicate differently than your projections. That's why I asked for your sources.
AxisMundi
E Pluribus Unum!!!
No, the FACTS state otherwise. Perhaps you should've done a quick google before making that statment.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/USTPtrends.pdf
And a source for your 80% would be quite helpful as well. Again, your "facts" are from from, as the number is closer to 50% of sexually active people, who will get HPV in their lifetime.
CDC - Human Papillomavirus (HPV)
Cosmos
Member
CDC is the same source that told the world there was a million people infected with swine flu, while keeping their statistics in the range of mere thousands. When using government statistics, it is good to first realize that these statistics are used for a propaganda machine and misinformation is common even when using said government sources. In any case, it is up for the researcher to choose whether to believe in statistics on a book or online, or personal experience. In my experience, teenage pregnancy and STD rates are an epidemic in this country.
Oh, I see now.Hon, teenage pregnancies and STDs have always "been on the rise" according to traditionalists, and from MY experience (since you dismiss facts and figures), I've seen these phenomena more often in kids who really don't know better.
Cosmos
Member
I don't know any young man or woman who knows better. Knowing better is emotional security and a grounded self-confidence not obsessively oriented towards sexuality. Mature young adults make commitments and handle responsibilities--hence marriage or long-term relationships. Besides, sister, this is not an argument between traditionalism vs. liberalism. Ideology has no place in the bedroom.
Further, the figure of 50% is a rough estimate that is most likely inaccurate for the simple fact that there is no real test for HPV. Doctors in the clinics will actually tell you--and this figure I know word of mouth from my fiance (from a medical doctor!)--that the figure is the 80%. Women have to get pap smears to test for cancerous cells that are effects of the HPV, but there is no actual clinical test to find the over one hundred and thirty strains of the virus. In men it is undetectable, except in very rare occasions where males erupt in genital warts (estimated 10-15 strains of HPV cause genital warts). So, the argument that promiscuous teenage sex is okay is medically an unsound opinion, because even using contraception YOU CAN STILL RECEIVE HPV--and the Gardasil is physiologically and psychologically damaging young women (now they want to give it to little boys too), including death in many cases.
Further, the figure of 50% is a rough estimate that is most likely inaccurate for the simple fact that there is no real test for HPV. Doctors in the clinics will actually tell you--and this figure I know word of mouth from my fiance (from a medical doctor!)--that the figure is the 80%. Women have to get pap smears to test for cancerous cells that are effects of the HPV, but there is no actual clinical test to find the over one hundred and thirty strains of the virus. In men it is undetectable, except in very rare occasions where males erupt in genital warts (estimated 10-15 strains of HPV cause genital warts). So, the argument that promiscuous teenage sex is okay is medically an unsound opinion, because even using contraception YOU CAN STILL RECEIVE HPV--and the Gardasil is physiologically and psychologically damaging young women (now they want to give it to little boys too), including death in many cases.
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linwood
Well-Known Member
This is false.
Teen pregnancies dropped by 20% in the 80`s-90`s and rose drastically again at the turn of the century.
During the 80`s and 90`s we had a contraceptive based sex ed in schools.
At the turn of the century government regulations required an abstinence based curriculum.
This is why we had a rise recently.
However you should see it go back down in the next decade as the politics that made this mistake have changed.
I don't know any young man or woman who knows better. Knowing better is emotional security and a grounded self-confidence not obsessively oriented towards sexuality. Mature young adults make commitments and handle responsibilities--hence marriage or long-term relationships. Besides, sister, this is not an argument between traditionalism vs. liberalism. Ideology has no place in the bedroom.
Knowing better = education + resolve
And yes, teens have been able to know better before.
How old are you and who do you hang out with? You keep bringing up personal experience...well then I say your personal experience ought to be put up for scrutiny. Because I have my own experience as a teen many moons ago, as an adult who went through phases of self-imposed celibacy as well as promiscuity, and now as a mother of four teenaged (all right one preteen) kids.
AND I have facts to back up my argument. Your turn.
McBell
Unbound
Please do.
Keep us posted if you will during your search for an article that agrees with your "fact".
Cosmos
Member
As a stepfather and an adult who was a teenage a mere handful of years ago, my opinion stems from the consensus opinion of fellow adults--far superior in my seniority and life experiences. Middle aged, elderly, in-between. Again, comparing parenthood is an invalid argument. This is ideological. Further, I'd like to further emphasize "And yes, teens have been able to know better before" as my last comment had to do exactly with that: Mature young adults commit to relationships and not to sex. Having sex does not make anyone a mature or emotionally healthy adult. This is a myth in popular culture perpetuated by a Baby Boomer generation suffering from "self-imposed" pathologies where making void traditional norms is a new societal goal to achieve social liberation.
(Just so you know the vast majority of people I know and hang out with are ten plus years my senior.)
(Just so you know the vast majority of people I know and hang out with are ten plus years my senior.)
Oh and BTW, ideology has a LOT to do with what goes on in the bedroom. Ever hear of how women were supposed to carry on their "wifely duties"?
Okay.
Sorry to tell you, but they're misleading you. The facts prove otherwise.
I have a wide range of peers who I know professionally and personally across generations. The religiously imposed idealistic view is the one you tout.
Reality speaks a whole different tune.
McBell
Unbound
Just like your " 80% of sexually active men and women passing the cancer-inducing disease" ""fact""?
Completely unsubstantiated, unverifiable, and contrary to all reputable sources...?
Define "epidemic"
Of course with your current track record concerning "facts"...:sarcastic:
McBell
Unbound
You said it MUCH MUCH nicer than I would have.
Cosmos
Member
Keep yourself posted. :foot:
Statistics are a dead end argument when it comes to defending a moral position. That's like saying the murder of 6 million Jews is insignificant to the fact that nearly twice as many Christians were murdered in the same period.
Or that because marriage fails 50% of the time in America that marriage is a useless institution. Shoot... looking at CPI statistics is a horrid way to truly gauge the financial wealth in the country. The list of examples goes on. If Mestemia and Sanghi wish to justify 1990's relatively low rate of teenage pregnancies as a way to raise their children a certain way or an excuse to live a certain way... that's fine... but it's just numbers and does not account for the reality of any given situation.(I'd also like to comment that such an opinion from a Buddhist is sort of odd and hypocritical when if one were to read the explicitly expressed moral obligations and teachings of the Tathagata it is more than abundantly clear that sexuality is a low end of the psychological spectrum of where the gestalt of our perceptions should be most focused... And what is the argument in mentioning your pre-teen children?... That it's okay for children to sexually experiment?)
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McBell
Unbound
AH.
Now it makes sense.
You had no problem just tossing out numbers BEFORE you were called out on them.
NOW all of a sudden "statistics are a dead end argument".
That's like saying the murder of 6 million Jews is insignificant to the fact that nearly twice as many Christians were murdered in the same period.
[/I]
Yet you did not hesitate to start dropping statistics...
most revealing.
Cosmos
Member
No, rather than debate numbers or semantics, I'd rather defend a firm position. Sanghi, before touting anti-religious sentiments--what the hell are you doing as a Buddhist when Buddhism IS a religion and faith (saddhi) a core fundamental aspect of this religion? Have you read the Suttas? In fact, most of these opinions are not even from religious people! Sorry, but New Agers who refer to themselves as this or that while obviously possessing habits and morals contrary to the teachings of its Founders... are dumb.
Secondly, I'd like to say... the figure of HPV in America and the high-risk of having that oh so sweet active sexual life comes from a BUDDHIST WORLD REKNOWN OBSTETRICIAN--Dr. Im! Look him up. This man has warned my fiance about the very dangers I am sharing with you all.
Secondly, I'd like to say... the figure of HPV in America and the high-risk of having that oh so sweet active sexual life comes from a BUDDHIST WORLD REKNOWN OBSTETRICIAN--Dr. Im! Look him up. This man has warned my fiance about the very dangers I am sharing with you all.
What in the world are you carrying on about, Cosmos?
Facts - and personal experience - and experience from friends and acquaintances generations older than I - prove that comprehensive sex education is the most ethical mandate we can give our children. In these groups overall, there are LESS STD's, LESS teen pregnancies, LESS incidents of elective abortion.
My parenting philosophy has been this: I want my children to be prepared to make adult decisions. I can't make their decisions for them, for THAT will cripple them. I want them to be prepared to roll with the punches and learn from their mistakes, as well as take their accomplishments in stride. I do not want to shelter them from other people.
Sex education - comprehensive - is IMO ethically correct. They are free to remain virgins for however long they want since it's their bodies. But I aim to make sure they know the technicalities first.
Facts - and personal experience - and experience from friends and acquaintances generations older than I - prove that comprehensive sex education is the most ethical mandate we can give our children. In these groups overall, there are LESS STD's, LESS teen pregnancies, LESS incidents of elective abortion.
My parenting philosophy has been this: I want my children to be prepared to make adult decisions. I can't make their decisions for them, for THAT will cripple them. I want them to be prepared to roll with the punches and learn from their mistakes, as well as take their accomplishments in stride. I do not want to shelter them from other people.
Sex education - comprehensive - is IMO ethically correct. They are free to remain virgins for however long they want since it's their bodies. But I aim to make sure they know the technicalities first.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Deciding to ignore facts, doesn't make them any less factual. Just thought I'd toss that out there.
:biglaugh:
I understand. You haven't been here long enough to see how I've consistently come to the defense of other religious folks when it's been merited. But please, be my guest and go for the ad hominem arguments. I'm a performance artist by trade and have been for decades. I have a thick skin.
You know, Buddhists are culturally as varied as they come. We rarely agree on culturally influenced teachings of the afterlife, of karma, of guru devotion, and - oh shocker! - of sex and sexuality. I have my views that line up more than you think when it comes to some of the more tantric and esoteric views of Tibetan Buddhism.
Honestly, hon. Do your homework before making such confrontational arguments.