Is premarital sex really a sin?

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
Mestemia, What is it that makes anything wrong?

What society decides is wrong.

Take the Bible for instance.
I say slavery is wrong.
I am not talking about indentured servants, i am talking slavery.
It is wrong.

If you agree that slavery is wrong, you disagree with the Bible.

Scriptural verses please--concerning slavery.

When society decides something is wrong, what is made to validate that discision?

 

[Sha'irullah]

Actually, the term mashiach did not come to mean specifically and exclusively the one promised redeemer and restorer of the Davidic line until very late in the Second Temple period, if not even in the early Rabbinic Period (Common Era). When it is used in the Tanach, it can mean any leader appointed by God for a great task, or marked by God for some sort of authority.

This is exactly what I was referring to. It seems Christians have conflated a very simplistic and somewhat loose word. It just means anointed or chosen literally I think. So this whole concept of Jesus Christ seems odd.

 

[Levite]

This is exactly what I was referring to. It seems Christians have conflated a very simplistic and somewhat loose word. It just means anointed or chosen literally I think. So this whole concept of Jesus Christ seems odd.

Well, to be fair, the word evolved in meaning in Jewish tradition also, though it came to mean something very different than what it came to mean in Christianity. And in either case, nearly none of the messianic prophecies in the Tanach actually use the word mashiach, the word was applied to the one foresaid at a later time.

The objections Jews have to Jesus as messiah actually have nothing to do with the literal meaning of the word.

 

[McBell]

Scriptural verses please--concerning slavery.

Leviticus 25:44-46
Exodus 21:2-11
Exodus 21:20-21

When society decides something is wrong, what is made to validate that discision?

Usually a law.
Though some people write a book about how it is the will/command of a deity.

 

[sincerly]

Considering the amount of premarital sex in the Bible, no. Actually this whole concept of premarital sex is twisted because the only mandate for marriage in the Bible is children out of wedlock or rape. This is where that notion of "doing the right thing"(marrying a girl) comes from.

PT, As this topic attests, the sexual drive was the one sin which tripped up a person second to idolatry. In OT times, marriage was arranged by the parents.
Yes, should a couple have sex it was expected that they then live/married to each other. And that was the "right thing".

The Bible doesn't hide the "sins " of the people , but they are placed in the Scriptures as examples that Believers should avoid.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by Philotech View Post
Considering the amount of premarital sex in the Bible, no. Actually this whole concept of premarital sex is twisted because the only mandate for marriage in the Bible is children out of wedlock or rape. This is where that notion of "doing the right thing"(marrying a girl) comes from.

FWIW, at least in the Hebrew Bible (the so-called "Old Testament") there is actually no condemnation of children born out of wedlock. The word mamzer-- usually translated "b.a.s.t.a.r.d," and which is erroneously taken by Christianity to refer to children born out of wedlock-- actually refers only to children born of forbidden unions (i.e., adultery or incest).

Levite, Your

actually refers only to children born of forbidden unions (i.e., adultery or incest)

ARE children born from a "forbidden union" as you stipulated. therefore, NOT an erroneous referral.
What makes it right and no longer with that designation is the "Marrying".

Deut.23:2, "A ******* shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD."
Contradicts your ""there is actually no condemnation of children born out of wedlock.""

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by Philotech View Post
This is exactly what I was referring to. It seems Christians have conflated a very simplistic and somewhat loose word. It just means anointed or chosen literally I think. So this whole concept of Jesus Christ seems odd.

Well, to be fair, the word evolved in meaning in Jewish tradition also, though it came to mean something very different than what it came to mean in Christianity. And in either case, nearly none of the messianic prophecies in the Tanach actually use the word mashiach, the word was applied to the one foresaid at a later time.

The objections Jews have to Jesus as messiah actually have nothing to do with the literal meaning of the word.

Levite, Philotech was correct in that the OT usage meant "Anointed" as you agreed, but it was translated as "Messiah" ,Also. In Daniel 9:25-26, And it was this "messiah" that the Disciples were looking for. John 1:41,45, "He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ".

Jesus acknowledged that HE was the messiah to the woman at the well, John 4:25-26, "The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he."

Jesus was "anointed", also.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
Scriptural verses please--concerning slavery.

Leviticus 25:44-46
Exodus 21:2-11
Exodus 21:20-21

Thanks for those verses. What is there about the Lord's stipulated method of "servitude" that is displeasing? Did you consider Lev.25:55??

Usually a law.
Though some people write a book about how it is the will/command of a deity.

Correct. There has to be a "law" to make anything "wrong".

What is/was written in the Bible was the approved relationships of mankind to GOD and each other.

You are free to accept or reject what is presented within the pages of the Bible.
However, that which is written will still be unchanged/valid by your choice.

 

[s2a]

Only a "sin" if you believe that "sin" is a thing.

Most of us have moved beyond that...

I await your chosen projections of imposed guilt and shame.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

In OT times, marriage was arranged by the parents.
Yes, should a couple have sex it was expected that they then live/married to each other. And that was the "right thing".

This depends entirely on which part of the planet youre referring to. Imagining culture was consistent in OT times is even more incorrect than imagining it is now.

 

[McBell]

Correct. There has to be a "law" to make anything "wrong".

No there does not.
That is where you are stuck.
Was the thing that is wrong because a law says it is wrong wrong before the law said it was wrong?

If not, then why the law to say it is was wrong?
If so, then it was wrong regardless of a law saying it was wrong.

In the case of slavery, the Biblical god condones slavery even though it is wrong.

What is/was written in the Bible was the approved relationships of mankind to GOD and each other.

And the immorality in the Bible shows that there are things that are wrong that the Biblical god has no problems with.

You are free to accept or reject what is presented within the pages of the Bible.

Thank you for your permission...

However, that which is written will still be unchanged/valid by your choice.

Wrong.
That which is written in the Bible has undergone lots of change already and I see no reason to believe that the changes are going to magically stop..

The validity of the Bible is up to each individual to decide.
Though I sincerely hope they do not depend on the all or nothing approach you seem to favour.

 

[BTROD]

nothing to do with anyone else - pre-marital sex that is!

 

[sincerly]

Only a "sin" if you believe that "sin" is a thing.

Most of us have moved beyond that...

I await your chosen projections of imposed guilt and shame.

Most, indeed, have moved to that acceptance.
2Tim.4:3-4 prophesied of that attitude. "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
In OT times, marriage was arranged by the parents.
Yes, should a couple have sex it was expected that they then live/married to each other. And that was the "right thing".

This depends entirely on which part of the planet youre referring to. Imagining culture was consistent in OT times is even more incorrect than imagining it is now.

LNT, to keep it in focus, this topic is in the "biblical debates" and was/is concerning the how "believers"/all GOD created are to regard what instructions has been given.

Those Scriptural instructions were restated to "believers" many years after the separations of the "nations". And like today, man's lusts and freedom to choose are as varied as there is peoples.

The fact of the matter is that GOD deemed it a sin when there was no intention to "marry"---as we say today.

 

[Sonofason]

Is premarital sex really a sin? The Bible condemns sexual immorality but not premarital sex. I personally do not believe that premarital sex is a sin. What do you believe?

I am not certain that premarital sex is a sin. But if this is true, then the union of man and woman is marriage. Therefore, once you have sex once, you are married, and therefore an adulterer if you should have sex with anyone else.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
When society decides something is wrong, what is made to validate that discision?

Usually a law.
Though some people write a book about how it is the will/command of a deity.

Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
Correct. There has to be a "law" to make anything "wrong".

No there does not.
That is where you are stuck.
Was the thing that is wrong because a law says it is wrong wrong before the law said it was wrong?

If not, then why the law to say it is was wrong?
If so, then it was wrong regardless of a law saying it was wrong.

In the case of slavery, the Biblical god condones slavery even though it is wrong.

Mestemia, then why did society make a law that it was wrong? If it wasn't wrong before the law was made?

The type of "slavery" for which you posted verses was "purchased" to be servants. An agreed arrangement. It really was/is no different than today. One "sells" himself for his "wages". But even with the long servitude, the jubilee came/and freedom.

Agreed, "slave-trading" is wrong. That type isn't the message of GOD in the Scriptures.

And the immorality in the Bible shows that there are things that are wrong that the Biblical god has no problems with.

Wrong, The Israelites mission was to be a light/moral instructions to those Nations which surrounded them. However, they vacillated in choosing to accept the "gods" of the "nations as their GOD" and their wrong "principles".

Thank you for your permission...

The freedom was expressed in the Scriptures.

Wrong.
That which is written in the Bible has undergone lots of change already and I see no reason to believe that the changes are going to magically stop..

All the changes were not from the Scriptures, but from the eisegesis by mankind/non believers.
The "thinking to change times and laws" will not cease as long as there are "doubters/non-believers."

The validity of the Bible is up to each individual to decide.
Though I sincerely hope they do not depend on the all or nothing approach you seem to favour.

Yes, that will be the witness of each. And it isn't to be carved into 'acceptable' or reject-able portions. It is a unit of truths for a right relationship to the giver of those inspired truths and one's fellow beings.

 

[roger1440]

Only a "sin" if you believe that "sin" is a thing.

Most of us have moved beyond that...

I await your chosen projections of imposed guilt and shame.

Do you have a Biblical verse to support that? This thread is within the “Biblical debate” section.

 

[McNap]

I believe there is no homour in committing sin.

A bed of sin is a defiled bed.

I believe yo are talkinl about the honour among thieves concept but I believe one sin can lead to more sins. A concept that sin is OK defiles the person's thinking about everything.

Neither do I believe there is honor in committing sin.

So do I believe a bed of sin is a defiled bed.

But the bed will no longer be defiled when they are married.
I think mutual love determines when 2 people are married...
Romans 13:10 Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.

In reply 103 e.r.m. quoted Henrique Aguiar saying that he tried to justify same sex copulation, but justifying it wouldn't be necessary for Henrique if people like e.r.m. (whom you are defending) didn't condemn this in the first place.
Don't you think e.r.m. blaming Henrique for justifying what he condemned is a bit double minded?

 

[sincerly]

Neither do I believe there is honor in committing sin.

So do I believe a bed of sin is a defiled bed.

But the bed will no longer be defiled when they are married.
I think mutual love determines when 2 people are married...
Romans 13:10 Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.

In reply 103 e.r.m. quoted Henrique Aguiar saying that he tried to justify same sex copulation, but justifying it wouldn't be necessary for Henrique if people like e.r.m. (whom you are defending) didn't condemn this in the first place.
Don't you think e.r.m. blaming Henrique for justifying what he condemned is a bit double minded?

McNap, The GOD of the Scriptures who Created all things made the Rules/laws to be followed by HIS Creatures and is NOT "double-minded".

The Creator said the Male and the Female(married) were to be "one flesh", Just as the Female was created from the "flesh" of man.

GOD called man's sexual relationship between other than one's wife(female)--SIN.

Rom.13: isn't speaking of erotic/love, but brotherly--Philo/love.

 

[McNap]

McNap, The GOD of the Scriptures who Created all things made the Rules/laws to be followed by HIS Creatures and is NOT "double-minded".

The Creator said the Male and the Female(married) were to be "one flesh", Just as the Female was created from the "flesh" of man.

GOD called man's sexual relationship between other than one's wife(female)--SIN.

Rom.13: isn't speaking of erotic/love, but brotherly--Philo/love.

Well, according to Matthew Jesus said:

But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. (Mat. 5:32)

This means you can either commit adultary with anyone who is married/divorced or you have to be married/divorced yourself.

If I am single and have never been married and I have seks with a single girl who has never been married... how can it be a sin?
A sin is a violation of one of the 10 commandments.
I can even have seks (or marry) with a divorced girl as long as her ex-husband put her away for the cause of fornication. I guarantee you, it's no sin if I have seks with such a divorced girl. If she loved her ex-husband well enough, she wouldn't do any sexual immorality. One does sexual immorality because there is someone outside the marriage whom you love more. Jesus means you should marry the one you love the most. Therefore he makes exceptions. Why would you stay married to your wife anyway if you know she has more love for someone else?
I agree with the topic starter.
She said she believes premarital seks is no sin.

As for the brotherly-love-thing you mentioned... if practising homosexuals have charity for every brother and even for irreligious people they are not sinning?

I mean, I spread the gospel on the streets and sometimes people ask me questions regarding their gay-friends.
Or suppose some gay brothers remain celibate thanks to brothers like you and they fall in love with one another in our church because we have allowed them there for their celibacy, then what should we do according to you?
Because I'm not going to hinder anyone else his love.
Or what if I tell the gospel to an atheistic gay boy that already has a relationship with another gay boy and he wants to accept Jesus in his heart...
You think I will force him to return to singleness? Or that I make him feel guilty?
Jesus said: All those who the Father gives me will come to me. Him who comes to me I will in no way throw out. (John 6:37)