Is premarital sex really a sin?

[sincerly]

I hear a whole lotta talk from the fundies, but they're still too scared to pick up those stones. I'll be here waiting for whenever ya'll get the courage to actually start following through with the hatred and violence that your book teaches.

TL (Rom.12:19), "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

TL (Rom.12:19), "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."

Okay, so do you kill them or not? It says one thing in one verse, and something completely different in another. (as if that is any surprise whatsoever.)

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
TL (Rom.12:19), "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."

Okay, so do you kill them or not? It says one thing in one verse, and something completely different in another. (as if that is any surprise whatsoever.)

TL, Read Jesus' parable in Matt.13:24-30 and then read 2Pet.3:9.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
TL (Rom.12:19), "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."



TL, Read Jesus' parable in Matt.13:24-30 and then read 2Pet.3:9.

Why quote Old Testament passages about murdering gays then, if you are not supposed to actually murder them?

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
TL (Rom.12:19), "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."

TL, Read Jesus' parable in Matt.13:24-30 and then read 2Pet.3:9.

Why quote Old Testament passages about murdering gays then, if you are not supposed to actually murder them?

TL, At the time those laws were given they were under a Theocratic Government. GOD gave the orders and the people were to obey. The People rebelled and Judges became the leaders. Even under the Judges, the people were a "law unto themselves". That lead to the people desiring a King as the "nations" had. However, the kings lead the people astray from GOD and the people suffered 70 Years of captivity for listening to the kings rather than the righteousness of the laws given by the Creator GOD. Jesus (as prophesied)began the restoration of the Kingdom of GOD---and Vengeance is HIS--- All will receive the reward as revealed by obedience or disobedience to HIS(same) righteous LAWS.

It is still a sin to go against the sexual laws of GOD. All "sinners"(by whatever cause) will receive the same reward---death.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
TL (Rom.12:19), "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."

TL, Read Jesus' parable in Matt.13:24-30 and then read 2Pet.3:9.



TL, At the time those laws were given they were under a Theocratic Government. GOD gave the orders and the people were to obey. The People rebelled and Judges became the leaders. Even under the Judges, the people were a "law unto themselves". That lead to the people desiring a King as the "nations" had. However, the kings lead the people astray from GOD and the people suffered 70 Years of captivity for listening to the kings rather than the righteousness of the laws given by the Creator GOD. Jesus (as prophesied)began the restoration of the Kingdom of GOD---and Vengeance is HIS--- All will receive the reward as revealed by obedience or disobedience to HIS(same) righteous LAWS.

It is still a sin to go against the sexual laws of GOD. All "sinners"(by whatever cause) will receive the same reward---death.

A god that condones that sort of violence and hatred against people, and then has the nerve to say that he is " love."Yeah, I don't buy it. :no:

 

[sincerly]

A god that condones that sort of violence and hatred against people, and then has the nerve to say that he is " love."Yeah, I don't buy it. :no:

TL, as the scriptures indicate, It isn't for sale---but, it is your choice to Believe or disbelieve the messages given.

 

[columbus]

TL, as the scriptures indicate, It isn't for sale---but, it is your choice to Believe or disbelieve the messages given.

No it isn't a choice, at least not for me. I am not able to believe. There is just too much nonsense mixed in to believe that any of this is from God. It is obvious, to me, that humans are making it up. I cannot change that.

Tom

 

[Gnostic Seeker]

A god that condones that sort of violence and hatred against people, and then has the nerve to say that he is " love."Yeah, I don't buy it. :no:

Indeed not, if that were truly what God is. God is unconditional love. He loves everyone as living members of Himself- in whom we exist. That doesn't mean everything we do as concerns the flesh alligns with His will, but I don't think that extends to how a person is born (gay or straight) , or who they love. Just my two cents of course.

 

[sojourner]

Those inspired writers didn't record their "opinions", but the messages they were asked/told to give to the people.

All people can do is record opinion, because perceptions are always made through a subjective lens. Even prophets.

Those same Scriptures record the behavior of the human race for thousands of years.

So? For thousands of years, people thought the earth was flat, too. They also believed homosexuality was unnatural and sinful. Doesn't mean that either is right, for both have been disproven.

Those texts are still valid

Valid in that they're still scripture, but not valid in their opinion. Even Jesus dismissed scripture that presented outdated opinion.

the veracity of them has been rebelled against since mankind's imaginations have continually been stayed upon the "evil".

Non sequitur.

Human sexuality has been understood since Adam "knew" Eve and Cain was the product.

Apparently, it hasn't, because the texts say in a couple of places that homosexuality is unnatural and sinful. We now know that's not the case.

The "lust of/for sexual stimulation" is known to be satisfied in many ways, but the Creator GOD specified the only method approved by HIM to prevent many problems.

No, the biblical writers wrote their opinions on the matter. The only problem is the systemic dehumanization of a group of people by wacko fundies.

Those were recorded by those Inspired writers as they were so inspired by GOD

Through the lens of their own (obviously) misinformed opinion.

See above.

See above.

 

[sojourner]

At the time those laws were given they were under a Theocratic Government.

So it's OK to explain away killing homosexuals, but it's not OK to explain away the fact that the writers' take on homosexuality was simply WRONG.

Got it. Are those goalposts getting heavy, seeing that you've moved them so much?

It is still a sin to go against the sexual laws of GOD.

I'm not aware that homosexuals are breaking the "sexual laws of God."

All "sinners"(by whatever cause) will receive the same reward---death.

Unless, of course, they sin by not killing homosexuals, apparently.

 

[sojourner]

TL, as the scriptures indicate, It isn't for sale---but, it is your choice to Believe or disbelieve the messages given.

Feels an awful lot like Eddie Izzard's "Cake or Death" sketch to me.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
TL, as the scriptures indicate, It isn't for sale---but, it is your choice to Believe or disbelieve the messages given.

No it isn't a choice, at least not for me. I am not able to believe. There is just too much nonsense mixed in to believe that any of this is from God. It is obvious, to me, that humans are making it up. I cannot change that.
Tom

HI TOM, It is your choice to believe it is "nonsense" and "that humans are making it up".

Right! Some people do try to "change it". (As Dan.7:25 states. and 2Thess.2:3-4; Rev.2:4, attested.)

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

I'm not aware that homosexuals are breaking the "sexual laws of God."

They are not. Not any more than every other species of animal on this planet, which has shown the exact same sort of behavior.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by Triumphant_Loser View Post
A god that condones that sort of violence and hatred against people, and then has the nerve to say that he is " love."Yeah, I don't buy it.

Indeed not, if that were truly what God is. God is unconditional love. He loves everyone as living members of Himself- in whom we exist. That doesn't mean everything we do as concerns the flesh alligns with His will, but I don't think that extends to how a person is born (gay or straight) , or who they love. Just my two cents of course.

GS, GOD is "conditional"---Obey and live. Disobey and die. Yes, that is "your two cents", but it is not Scriptural.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

GS, GOD is "conditional"---Obey and live. Disobey and die. Yes, that is "your two cents", but it is not Scriptural.

God's love is "conditional?" So that means he actually hates people, right?

 

[columbus]

HI TOM, It is your choice to believe it is "nonsense" and "that humans are making it up".

Right! Some people do try to "change it". (As Dan.7:25 states. and 2Thess.2:3-4; Rev.2:4, attested.)

No it isn't. I realize that you prefer to believe that it is a choice. But I am no more able to choose to believe in religion than I can choose to believe that basic math or biology has changed through the centuries. I can't.
I know how they work, and I know how religion works.

Tom

 

[sincerly]

Those inspired writers didn't record their "opinions", but the messages they were asked/told to give to the people.

All people can do is record opinion, because perceptions are always made through a subjective lens. Even prophets.

That opinion/perspective given by GOD to the Prophets for the instruction of mankind should be believed by HIS subjects. However, those who are not HIS subjects have a different "perspective".

Those same Scriptures record the behavior of the human race for thousands of years. Those texts are still valid and the veracity of them has been rebelled against since mankind's imaginations have continually been stayed upon the "evil".

So? For thousands of years, people thought the earth was flat, too. They also believed homosexuality was unnatural and sinful. Doesn't mean that either is right, for both have been disproven.

Valid in that they're still scripture, but not valid in their opinion. Even Jesus dismissed scripture that presented outdated opinion.

Non sequitur.

The only "non-sequitur" is those examples of yours.

Human sexuality has been understood since Adam "knew" Eve and Cain was the product.

Apparently, it hasn't, because the texts say in a couple of places that homosexuality is unnatural and sinful. We now know that's not the case.

That is a presumed "know" by the "opinion of man". The Scriptures are still true.

The "lust of/for sexual stimulation" is known to be satisfied in many ways, but the Creator GOD specified the only method approved by HIM to prevent many problems.

No, the biblical writers wrote their opinions on the matter. The only problem is the systemic dehumanization of a group of people by wacko fundies.
Through the lens of their own (obviously) misinformed opinion.

It was GOD who gave those sexual related "opinions" and those who commit such are "humans"---Sin is Sin.

 

[psychoslice]

All I can say is, you gotta try before you buy.

 

[columbus]

That opinion/perspective given by GOD to the Prophets for the instruction of mankind should be believed by HIS subjects. However, those who are not HIS subjects have a different "perspective".
.

Why would God be limited to giving His opinion/ perspective to the Prophets instead of giving them to everyone without need of human mouthpieces?
It's one of those odd things that makes religion look like fiction.

Tom