Is progressive revelation believable?

[dybmh]

That link did not come up but I will look at it later. I have to run to work now, I mean bike, and it is a long way and I cannot afford to be late...

The CONTEXT of Judaism believing they are the only true religion is that they do not accept any of the Messengers of God (Prophets) that came after Moses, namely Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. If they do not accept those Messengers as being from God, they cannot SAY they accept those religions as true religions.

The Baha'i Faith accepts Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah and other Messengers as being true Messengers of God so we believe that their religions are true religions from God, all part of the eternal religion of God that unfolds over time.

It all goes back to the meaning of the word "true" and if there are any other world religions that conform to the Noahide Law. That's where I'm at. What you're describing above is the Baha'i definition of a "true" religion. I'm still trying to get clarity on what is considered "false" according to Judaism, and what is the metric for determining that. Chat with you later,

Blessings,

 

[amorphous_constellation]

It's just how it was ordained, sometimes it takes awhile for humanity as a whole to become more mature and progress to the next level. And around about every 1000 years and new Manifestation comes into the world.

I see. Well I guess it just takes 1000 years for us to slowly accrete enough ideas to level up

 

[Tumah]

@Tumah,

So are you saying that no other religion in the entire world conforms to the noahide law without alteration and adjustment? ( aka religious tailoring )

Pretty much. I made a post about Judaism based on Jewish sources a while back. Check out section 2 here and the third to last paragraph in section 7 here.

 

[Aupmanyav]

We recognize: Adam, Abraham, Jesus Christ, the Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Zoroaster, Prophet Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah as Manifestations of God.

I would say be very careful. Some of these revelations such as hinduism and buddhism are very old and back in those old times ..

First of all, how are you an atheist and a hindu at the same time? You may want to explain that one to me.

Why just these seven. And Buddha who did not even say that God exists; and Krishna who said He is the God. Kindly read Mirza own writing, I think he has explained his mission and add it to your line of accepted people. If Allah sent him, you are committing a great sin of denying his message. He is the latest as far as I know. As you say Wikipedia is not the most reliable of source.

Another person that you are missing out in the list is Joseph Smith. He had been given golden plates by God. Your list is incomplete.

They say old is gold. Tell me a message better than what we Hindus have. This is a complete message and no message other than this is required.

As for my being a Hindu and an atheist, I believe in non-duality, Advaita. Each and every particle in this universe is nothing other than a non-God, eternal, form-independent, changeless, un-involved entity which we know as Brahman. Therefore, it makes God imaginary, superfluous and unnecessary.

 

[Rival]

@Rival,

If you don't mind, I feel like you are an authority on this. I'm familiar with the 7 noahide Laws. And Islam conforms to it naturally without adjustment. Am I wrong?

Also.. Baha'i... conforms to the Noahide law, right?

I would expect the Sihk's conform to it naturally. And I could probably come up with a few others given time.

So. If the metric is the Noahide Law, and those that don't conform to it naturally are considered false, is it logical, reasonable, etc... to consider that Islam, and Baha'i, and potentially Sikhs are not false?

I don't know what "true religion" means. But I know what "false" religion means. And if the Noahide Law is the objective metric.. there are at least 2 religions which are at the very least not false.

And this shuts down the whole: Judaism is tribal argument. It's not tribal, it's based on an objective set of rules. Follow the rules, and it's not false.

Am I still being optimistic?

Hey, sorry I was fantasising about driving Christine. I am now mentally here to answer you.

No, they don't. They are by their very existence not conforming. Noahidism is intimately connected to Judaism in such a way that to try to divorce them would render one if not even both meaningless. To come up with a new religion that is not only completely different but supersessionist would render Noahidism absurd, especially as those religions seek to convert everyone - including Jews - thus making both faiths obsolete.

Not to mention, while they can be seen playing out in the Torah, the 7 Laws are enumerated in the Talmud and the faiths you mention discard the Talmud. This is also senseless.

 

[dybmh]

Hey, sorry I was fantasising about driving Christine. I am now mentally here to answer you.

No, they don't. They are by their very existence not conforming. Noahidism is intimately connected to Judaism in such a way that to try to divorce them would render one if not even both meaningless. To come up with a new religion that is not only completely different but supersessionist would render Noahidism absurd, especially as those religions seek to convert everyone - including Jews - thus making both faiths obsolete.

Not to mention, while they can be seen playing out in the Torah, the 7 Laws are enumerated in the Talmud and the faiths you mention discard the Talmud. This is also senseless.

This is more challenging than the Agunah problem... just say'n...

so the obstacles are proselytizing and denial of the Talmud. And whatever is in @Tumah's thread that he linked to...

thank you Rival. thank you.

 

[dybmh]

Pretty much. I made a post about Judaism based on Jewish sources a while back. Check out section 2 here and the third to last paragraph in section 7 here.

OK, I read basically the whole thread. I focused on the two paragraphs cited.

So there are 7 Laws, and the last one has a sub law. And to me, this sub-law is the biggest obstacle... the Ger Toshav doesn't seem to be that big of an obstacle. Am I miss-understanding anything yet?

And just to be clear. The obstacle I am trying to clear is: "All other religions are false."

Trying to claim what's true, to me, is going to be too complicated.

 

[Rival]

This is more challenging than the Agunah problem... just say'n...

so the obstacles are proselytizing and denial of the Talmud. And whatever is in @Tumah's thread that he linked to...

thank you Rival. thank you.

It's more that to say all these religions fit the 7 Laws and thus make one a Noahide water the faith down so much that it becomes valueless. It also gives legitimacy to illegitimate faiths that want to replace Judaism, to which Noachidism is tied.

It's like, why would you say 'This faith that wants to replace mine is legit'?

 

[Tumah]

OK, I read basically the whole thread. I focused on the two paragraphs cited.

So there are 7 Laws, and the last one has a sub law.

They actually all had sub-Laws.

And to me, this sub-law is the biggest obstacle... the Ger Toshav doesn't seem to be that big of an obstacle. Am I miss-understanding anything yet?

I'm not quite sure I understand what you are saying. A Ger Toshav is the Biblical version of a Noahide. I'm not sure how you're connecting that here to obstacles.

And just to be clear. The obstacle I am trying to clear is: "All other religions are false."

Trying to claim what's true, to me, is going to be too complicated.

The obstacle is essentially is two-fold: (1) Non-Jews are required to believe in the Torah (and the implications of that belief) and (2) it's forbidden for non-Jews to create religious rituals. The two of those pretty much rule out every other religion.

 

[dybmh]

It's more that to say all these religions fit the 7 Laws and thus make one a Noahide water the faith down so much that it becomes valueless. It also gives legitimacy to illegitimate faiths that want to replace Judaism, to which Noachidism is tied.

It's like, why would you say 'This faith that wants to replace mine is legit'?

I cannot imagine any other faith successfully replacing Judaism... and I am a very imaginative person.

So far, I am only talking about 3 religions. And Islam does not want to replace Judaism. It is a question I have been meaning to ask our mutual Shia friend. But put simply:

I have had a few Muslim friends in my life and all of them fully supported my observance of Judaism. None of them would encourage me to stop doing that. Not unless they had some secret agenda. but I highly doubt it.

 

[Rival]

I cannot imagine any other faith successfully replacing Judaism... and I am a very imaginative person.

So far, I am only talking about 3 religions. And Islam does not want to replace Judaism. It is a question I have been meaning to ask our mutual Shia friend. But put simply:

I have had a few Muslim friends in my life and all of them fully supported my observance of Judaism. None of them would encourage me to stop doing that. Not unless they had some secret agenda. but I highly doubt it.

The faiths themselves claim to have made Judaism obsolete. This is a problem.

 

[dybmh]

They actually all had sub-Laws.

Good to know.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you are saying. A Ger Toshav is the Biblical version of a Noahide. I'm not sure how you're connecting that here to obstacles.

Well that explains why I didn;t see it as a problem. I thought that was on page #2 that you had directed me to. But forget it. It's not important now.

The obstacle is essentially is two-fold: (1) Non-Jews are required to believe in the Torah (and the implications of that belief) and (2) it's forbidden for non-Jews to create religious rituals. The two of those pretty much rule out every other religion.

OK. That's the answer then. Can I "read more about it" in Hilchos Melachim? These ^^ two obstacles are my focus.

 

[dybmh]

The faiths themselves claim to have made Judaism obsolete. This is a problem.

They do? For Jews? I thought that a Righteous Jew was a "thing" in Islam. Am I mistaken?

Also, the Sikhs? Do they claim that Judaism is obsolete?

I know I'm clutching at straws here. But hey, might as well rule out everything... and just finish this discussion...

 

[Rival]

They do? For Jews? I thought that a Righteous Jew was a "thing" in Islam. Am I mistaken?

Also, the Sikhs? Do they claim that Judaism is obsolete?

I know I'm clutching at straws here. But hey, might as well rule out everything... and just finish this discussion...

Any religion that claims to be The Religion is by definition replacing it.

And Islam seeks to convert all. It's universalist, like Christianity.

 

[dybmh]

Any religion that claims to be The Religion is by definition replacing it.

And Islam seeks to convert all. It's universalist, like Christianity.

Islam: there is no compulsion in religion. And the Shia are renowned for their open minded approach to others. Are you sure that All of the branches of Islam fit this description?

Please don't tell me I'm wrong about this too...

 

[Rival]

Islam: there is no compulsion in religion. And the Shia are renowned for their open minded approach to others. Are you sure that All of the branches of Islam fit this description?

Please don't tell me I'm wrong about this too...

Islam claims to correct Christianity via polemic in the Qur'an.

Christianity claims to replace Judaism.

 

[dybmh]

Islam claims to correct Christianity via polemic in the Qur'an.

Christianity claims to replace Judaism.

I don't know about this... that seems like a weak link to me... But.

I respect your opinion. I really am looking any opportunity to maintain my rose colored disposition about this. And it's not looking like there are any obvious ways to shoehorn the Law about this into my own preconceived notions...

it's not the first time... won't be the last...

 

[dybmh]

@ any Baha'i:

Question: Do ya'll have rituals? Religious Rituals?

Ahhhhh @Tony Bristow-Stagg ,

can you help with this?

 

[Rival]

I don't know about this... that seems like a weak link to me... But.

I respect your opinion. I really am looking any opportunity to maintain my rose colored disposition about this. And it's not looking like there are any obvious ways to shoehorn the Law about this into my own preconceived notions...

it's not the first time... won't be the last...

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

Islam also accepts Jesus as the messiah.

 

[dybmh]

O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.

Islam also accepts Jesus as the messiah.

I do believe and I could be wrong, that this would incumbent on a believer, a Muslim. I think Jews are exempt as "People of the Book".

@Niblo ,

can you help with this?