Is progressive revelation believable?

[Rival]

I think Jews are exempt as "People of the Book".

This would make no sense though.

 

[Tumah]

OK. That's the answer then. Can I "read more about it" in Hilchos Melachim? These ^^ two obstacles are my focus.

Sure. Check out 8:11 and 10:9.

 

[dybmh]

This would make no sense though.

At this point in the discussion "making sense" as in the deep distant future.

I'm just collecting information and trying to make sure that I have some clairity on what is rendering the Halachic Judgement of "False" on three religions: Baha'i, Islam, and Sihk.

Islam has a problem, because they do adjust the Torah and do not accept it as is. That's a problem. Also they have their own ritual. The whole "righteous Jew" thing is actually becoming a bit off-topic, IMO. But I do want some clairity onit eventually. Also.. they have their own ritual.

For Baha'i they have a different problem, they accept the Torah as is, but they are actively proselytizing. Of course they could always stop doing that. I don't see why they can't just stop. And I will add, if there isn't any "religious" ritual, and the only obstacle towards recognition is an all out cease and desist on chasing after Jews.. .ya know.. maybe they'll take that deal. No more proselytizing in exchange for recognition as "not false". I don't know.. I'm just problem solving.

For the Sihk's it's a mystery. I don't know anything about it. I assume that they do have ritual though. But at this point, i don't know Rambam's definition of a Religious Ritual. So that's something I want to chase down too. Sikhs may accept the Torah as revelation from God. I doubt it, but maybe maybe they are apathetic towards it, and would be open to accepting it? I don't know. I don't know anything about them. I am guessing they would care less about recognition anyways. but they believe in 1 G-d. And they believe in the soul, and there's a lot of common ground there on my cursory investigation this morning.

So yeah... I'm not even trying to make sense at this point. So... ya know... it's typical .. moi.

I'm just putting the pieces together and looking for the shortest most direct path ( like my approach to the Agunah Problem ) to get the Baha'i the recognition that they want. Why not? That's my question? if it makes them happy and it's Kosher somehow... why not give them a little warm fuzzy recognition from some friendly neighborhood Jews?

 

[shunyadragon]

@shunyadragon ,

I have reviewed your comments in this thread. And I was right.

Your God is, as you have said, "Universal".

It's not my God. I do not believe in all humility no one including the Jews can claim God is only their God.

Judaism worships the God of Abraham. It's Abraham's God, It's not my opinion, it's just Torah, it's just scripture. If you or anyone wants a Jewish person to accept this "Universal" God, it has to be in the Torah ( I would even accept evidence from the Tanach as a very good start).

The above is true for the limited extent of your belief, but it pretty much universal with ancient tribes and cultures to believe that their God or Gods, are the only God or Gods or as the Torah claims our God above other Gods

If you want to equate "Universal God" to "God of Abraham" you need to find something from Abraham to back it up.

IF one ONLY is willing to relate to their own tribal, ethnic, culture or racial world view this would be the claim of many ancient religions. I consider this view untenable in the contemporary world, and results in tribal wars as between Judaism, Christianity and Islam, that cannot see nor acknowledge anything beyond their tribal view as you, because their scriptures and interpretations are the only true way in one way or another.

By the way I also acknowledge the secular humanist world view as viable and definitely more reasonable then any ancient worldview like Judaism.

 

[Rival]

why not give them a little warm fuzzy recognition from some friendly neighborhood Jews?

Because many things make us feel good.

But that makes them no less wrong.

 

[dybmh]

It's not my God. I do not believe in all humility no one including the Jews can claim God is only their God.

ok. wow, you are intentionally being difficult aren't you?

That's fine. I can answer your questions indefinitely. And every time you dodge and try to deny what you said.. it just makes you look more and more like a fool.

But fine. Since you appear to need this spelled out for you...

The description you have used to describe God is "Universal".

Do you Deny it?

 

[dybmh]

Because many things make us feel good.

But that makes them no less wrong.

Ok. good point. I am trying to determine for my own peace of mind what exactly is "wrong" about it. And then I can present to the Baha'i community that is reading this thread and let them decide. I would basically be saying this: "Hi, if you want recognition, these are the steps to follow". If these steps do not exist, then it's a fail for me. That's all.

 

[shunyadragon]

At this point in the discussion "making sense" as in the deep distant future.

I'm just collecting information and trying to make sure that I have some clairity on what is rendering the Halachic Judgement of "False" on three religions: Baha'i, Islam, and Sihk.

Islam has a problem, because they do adjust the Torah and do not accept it as is. That's a problem. Also they have their own ritual. The whole "righteous Jew" thing is actually becoming a bit off-topic, IMO. But I do want some clairity onit eventually. Also.. they have their own ritual.

I believe Judaism has the same problem as Christianity and Islam, and do not accept the Torah as it is. You acknowledged that most Jews do not accept the Torah as the literal history of Jews nor the world as we know it. Actually they do not accept the more ancient view of God(s) of the Torah

For Baha'i they have a different problem, they accept the Torah as is, but they are actively proselytizing. Of course they could always stop doing that. I don't see why they can't just stop. And I will add, if there isn't any "religious" ritual, and the only obstacle towards recognition is an all out cease and desist on chasing after Jews.. .ya know.. maybe they'll take that deal. No more proselytizing in exchange for recognition as "not false". I don't know.. I'm just problem solving.

Of course, Judaism does not proslatise, because they consider themselves a closed tribal ethnic world of Jews only.

For the Sihk's it's a mystery. I don't know anything about it. I assume that they do have ritual though. But at this point, i don't know Rambam's definition of a Religious Ritual. So that's something I want to chase down too. Sikhs may accept the Torah as revelation from God. I doubt it, but maybe maybe they are apathetic towards it, and would be open to accepting it? I don't know. I don't know anything about them. I am guessing they would care less about recognition anyways. but they believe in 1 G-d. And they believe in the soul, and there's a lot of common ground there on my cursory investigation this morning.

So yeah... I'm not even trying to make sense at this point. So... ya know... it's typical .. moi.

I'm just putting the pieces together and looking for the shortest most direct path ( like my approach to the Agunah Problem ) to get the Baha'i the recognition that they want. Why not? That's my question? if it makes them happy and it's Kosher somehow... why not give them a little warm fuzzy recognition from some friendly neighborhood Jews?

What is demonstrated above is you judge everything, as all other religious beliefs from the narrow tribal, cultural and ethnic perspective of the God of Abraham in Judaism, as clearly asserted there is no God, nor relationship with God outside the Jewish belief in the only true 'God of Abraham,' and the scriptures.

 

[dybmh]

I believe Judaism has the same problem as Christianity and Islam, and do not accept the Torah as it is. You acknowledged that most Jews do not accept the Torah as the literal history of Jews nor the world as we know it. Actually they do not accept the more ancient view of God(s) of the Torah



Of course, Judaism does not proslatise, because they consider themselves a closed tribal ethnic world of Jews only.



What is demonstrated above is you judge everything, as all other religious beliefs from the narrow tribal, cultural and ethnic perspective of the God of Abraham in Judaism, as clearly asserted there is no God, nor relationship with God outside the Jewish belief in the only true 'God of Abraham,' and the scriptures.

Blah blah blah

Please, I am not responding to a single word until you demonstrate some academic integrity which is representative of the Baha'i faith.

Your description of God is Universal? Yes or No?

Your description of God is "The God of Abraham"? Yes or No?

 

[shunyadragon]

ok. wow, you are intentionally being difficult aren't you?

No, just describing my beliefs from a more universal perspective.

Blah, blah blah is not a coherent response.

That's fine. I can answer your questions indefinitely. And every time you dodge and try to deny what you said.. it just makes you look more and more like a fool.

I do not believe you have responded to my questions,

But fine. Since you appear to need this spelled out for you..

Th]e description you have used to describe God is "Universal".

Do you Deny it?

Of course, I believe in God as the universal and definable separate and exclusive to one or the other narrow ancient tribal and cultural view of only the 'God of Abraham' defined only in the ancient scriptures of the Torah, like yours.

 

[dybmh]

Of course, I believe in God as the universal and definable separate and exclusive to one or the other narrow ancient tribal and cultural view of only the 'God of Abraham' defined only in the ancient scriptures of the Torah, like yours.

Yes or no is all I will accept.

Your description of God is Universal? Yes or No?

Your description of God is "The God of Abraham"? Yes or No?

You have dodged one too many times.

 

[shunyadragon]

Ok. good point. I am trying to determine for my own peace of mind what exactly is "wrong" about it. And then I can present to the Baha'i community that is reading this thread and let them decide. I would basically be saying this: "Hi, if you want recognition, these are the steps to follow". If these steps do not exist, then it's a fail for me. That's all.

This is the view of all ancient religions, which assert that 'If you do not follow my steps than, of course, it is defacto fail for me.'

 

[dybmh]

This is the view of all ancient religions, which assert that 'If you do not follow my steps than, of course, it is defacto fail for me.'

All I hear are your hind-quarters flapping...

Yes or no... or we're done. And because of your attitude my opinion of the Baha'i faith will forever be tarnished.

Edit to add, IMO, you are sabotaging the mission of the Baha'i faith... well done.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes or no is all I will accept.

Your description of God is Universal? Yes or No?

Your description of God is "The God of Abraham"? Yes or No?

You have dodged one too many times.

The 'God of Abraham.' is the God of the universal of all religions as expressed in the Torah, but of course the Torah only expressed God in it's context, which by the way is not always consistent with the Jewish view of God today. In the Torah it is often described in a highly anthropomorphic context, and references to Henotheistic perspective of a hierarchy of Gods.

Still waiting for you to respond coherently without shouting,

 

[dybmh]

The 'God of Abraham.' is the God of the universal of all religions as expressed in the Torah, but of course the Torah only expressed God in it's context, which by the way is not always consistent with the Jewish view of God today. In the Torah it is often described in a highly anthropomorphic context, and references to Henotheistic perspective of a hierarchy of Gods.

Still waiting for you to respond coherently without shouting,

Ok. I'm done. This is hopeless and I have too much respect for the other kind generous warm forgiving logical open minded Baha'i to continue to allow their reputation to be dragged thru the sewer of your , apparently, warped and inflated ego.

IGNORE LIST... PARTY OF ONE.

Good bye... FRANK!

 

[shunyadragon]

All I hear are your hind-quarters flapping.

. . . because you are not willing to respond to my points, and prefer quarters flapping and Blah, blah, blah.

Yes or no... or we're done. And because of your attitude my opinion of the Baha'i faith will forever be tarnished.

Edit to add, IMO, you are sabotaging the mission of the Baha'i faith... well done.[/QUOTE]

I have made no reference to the Baha'i mission at present, but to argue for the Baha'i view of the universal God.

 

[shunyadragon]

Ok. I'm done. You are hopeless and I have too much respect for the other kind generous warm forgiving logical open minded Baha'i to continue to allow their reputation to be dragged thru the sewer of your , apparently, warped and inflated ego.

IGNORE LIST... PARTY OF ONE.

Good bye... FRANK!

I quess the best you can do in a dialogue is failure to respond and the fallacy of character assassination, and ah . . . Blah, blah, blah.

By the way all the Baha'is believe as I do that the 'God of Abraham' is the same God as that of all religions, which is the point I am arguing.The belief in the Universal God is Central to the Baha'i Faith.

 

[dybmh]

Well, at least we all have a perfect example of how NOT to unify the world in Peace and Fellowship...

@shunyadragon Ladies and Gentleman... let's give him a round of applause.....

....

crickets

....

 

[Wandering Monk]

'Progressive revelation' is just a tool people use to subsume the antecedents of their religion.

 

[shunyadragon]

Well, at least we all have a perfect example of how NOT to unify the world in Peace and Fellowship...

@shunyadragon Ladies and Gentleman... let's give him a round of applause.....

....

crickets

....

It is apparent the best you can do is crickets in response to my posts, and ah . . . character assassination.