Is progressive revelation believable?

[Terry Sampson]

You don't know what the term Manifestation of God means do you?

Actually, I do. "Manifestation of God" is a term that the Baha'i think they have a trademark on. Beyond that, I can read. Manifestation of God - Wikipedia
However, they don't have a trademark on "manifestation of God". I do.

So in other words you don't really have any.

I have at least as many as you do.

 

[Aupmanyav]

@Vouthon , reading your post, I take it that you do not require Jesus.

I have made no reference to the Baha'i mission at present, but to argue for the Baha'i view of the universal God.

Either there are many Gods and Goddesses or there is none. Just one is being very constipative.

The belief in One God has pretty much become what most religions believe these days.

A billion Hindus and 500 million Buddhists will differ with that.

The claim of polytheism is no less anecdotal and subjective claim then monotheism, and no you do not directly know 'Gods' any more than monotheists directly know God.

Then what in the name of Cthulhu are you fighting about? Let people have as many Gods \ Allahs and Goddesses \ Asheras as they want or even none. Does that really matter? You have chosen to believe in One Allah and your prophets \ sons \ messengers \ manfiestations \ mahdis, and fight for that; and pushed the basic principle of being humane to the background. Hinduism does not do that.

 

[Dawnofhope]

This is now open to any Baha'i, since I haven't seen the response from od19g6. If od19g6 has, and I somehow missed it let me know. But Baha'is claim that progressive revelation is what is the truth. One religion was given enough truth to get them ready for the next messenger that brought more truth. But, not all religions are included in this progression. It makes no mention of "progressive" revelation within a religion, like Hinduism and Judaism that both had multiple people that would be called "manifestations" by the Baha'is. Also, how does it deal with religions that were truly "false" religions with false gods? Like the ones that are mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. With one of those religions God ordered that Elijah kill all their prophets. Anyway, here is the original questions from post 271. What's the answer Baha'is? You made the claim.
od19g6 said: ↑
The only fundamental difference with Jesus Christ and Prophet Muhammad is the social teachings of their revelation in which it was the time and place that is was revealed in.
CG Didymus said: ↑
What were the social teachings of Jesus that were changed by Muhammad?
od19g6 said: ↑
The spiritual teachings are eternal. But the social teachings change from age to age.
CG Didymus said: ↑
In just the major religions, what are the eternal spiritual teachings that each of the religions teaches? And, in each one, what were the social teachings that the next religion in the progression changed?
od19g6 said: ↑
Not if that Prophet comes with proofs of His mission.

You may wish to reflect on the 10 commandments Yahweh gave to Moses.

Exodus 20

Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 20 - New International Version

Consider each one and how it relates not only to the Abrahamic Faiths but the Dharmic ones too. If you want to truly examine what is common and what is unique to each Faith then associate with peoples of all faiths in a spirit of love and fellowship.

 

[Aupmanyav]

People might believe they are communicating directly with “gods” but since there are no such gods whatever they are communicating with is imaginary. Imo. Of course, it is a Baha’i belief that there are no gods, there is only one true God, and that nobody except a Manifestation of God can ever communicate with the one true God directly.

Right. So in the same way we can dismiss the claim of Bahaullah to be a manifestation of any Allah or the Bahai belief in one Allah. I say and many other people say that your One Allah too is imaginary and Bahaullahs claim is false.

Hanging onto antecedents is just a tool people use to deny progressive revelation.

Yeah, why hang on to Adam, Noah, Krishna, Moses, Abraham, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad and Bahaullah (even he is out of date by 200 years). But you persist. The world has gone leaps and bounds ahead since that time.

P.R. - a tool of usurpers. I'm inclined to believe that usurpers commonly hold to "replacement theology", wherein the usurpers claim divine or divinely inspired authority to supplant a previously existing "faith community".

Well, Terry Sampson, Jesus too did just the same. It is common Abrahamic tradition. There were \ are so many others who claim \ claimed but their claims did not fall on receptive ears. This is because no proof is required for such a claim.

 

[shunyadragon]

@Vouthon , reading your post, I take it that you do not require Jesus.

Not clear nor coherent.

Either there are many Gods and Goddesses or there is none. Just one is being very constipative. The reality

constipative? not a word in the English language. A fallacy based on subjective personal assumptions.

The reality A billion Hindus and 500 million Buddhists will differ with that.

Arguing from popularity is a fallacy, nor a reality beyond a subjective assertion.

Then what in the name of Cthulhu are you fighting about? Let people have as many Gods \ Allahs and Goddesses \ Asheras as they want or even none. Does that really matter? You have chosen to believe in One Allah and your prophets \ sons \ messengers \ manfiestations \ mahdis, and fight for that; and pushed the basic principle of being humane to the background. Hinduism does not do that.

Take two aspirin and sleep it off.

 

[Vouthon]

@Vouthon , reading your post, I take it that you do not require Jesus.

Hello Aupmanyav, thanks for your post.

Could you elaborate a bit on what you mean by this?

I'm not sure which of my posts your referring to.

 

[shunyadragon]

Actually, I do. "Manifestation of God" is a term that the Baha'i think they have a trademark on. Beyond that, I can read. Manifestation of God - Wikipedia
However, they don't have a trademark on "manifestation of God". I do.

I have at least as many as you do.

Over the top sarcasm. There is no trademark on what is simply the English language.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Christianity claims to replace Judaism.

Not all, and those who do are wrong, ... in my currently unshakeable opinion.

 

[shunyadragon]

This is now open to any Baha'i, since I haven't seen the response from od19g6. If od19g6 has, and I somehow missed it let me know. But Baha'is claim that progressive revelation is what is the truth.

Yes, Baha'is believe in progressive Revelation.

One religion was given enough truth to get them ready for the next messenger that brought more truth. But, not all religions are included in this progression. It makes no mention of "progressive" revelation within a religion, like Hinduism and Judaism that both had multiple people that would be called "manifestations" by the Baha'is. Also, how does it deal with religions that were truly "false" religions with false gods? Like the ones that are mentioned in the Hebrew Bible.

The Baha'i Faith does not define separately whether progressive Revelation occurs 'only' between religions nor within religions. False religions fail over time, and reveal their bad fruit. Ancient scriptures are not totally Revelation from God like the Old Testament, and they obviously contain human influence, and a human view of what is God and the relationship with humanity and Creation. The human view that corrupts religion justify violence against those who believe differently.

With one of those religions God ordered that Elijah kill all their prophets. Anyway, here is the original questions from post 271. What's the answer Baha'is? You made the claim.

Humans in ancient religions often did justify their violence against others as being ordered by God, but in reality no, God does not order the killing of others. The human view that corrupts religion justify violence against those who believe differently, and the rebirth and renewal of religion removes human corruption of religion..

The corruption of religion reveals itself in ancient religions violate revealed spiritual laws and principles like the Ten Commandments.

od19g6 said: ↑
The only fundamental difference with Jesus Christ and Prophet Muhammad is the social teachings of their revelation in which it was the time and place that is was revealed in.
CG Didymus said: ↑
What were the social teachings of Jesus that were changed by Muhammad?

Muhammad allowed for divorce, and forbade the drinking of alcohol. The Revelation of Muhammad restored true belief rejecting the corruption of religion by confirmed the absolute Oneness and Unity of God rejecting the Trinity and the belief of an incarnate God.

od19g6 said: ↑
The spiritual teachings are eternal. But the social teachings change from age to age.
CG Didymus said: ↑
In just the major religions, what are the eternal spiritual teachings that each of the religions teaches? And, in each one, what were the social teachings that the next religion in the progression changed?

The Oneness and Unity of God, and that humans cannot define God in their own cultural terms separated from others that believe differently, and corrupt religion by defining God in their own cultural view.

od19g6 said: ↑
Not if that Prophet comes with proofs of His mission.

The proofs? of the Manifestation of God, are in the advances of the evolution of of the spiritual nature of humanity. In the New Age of the Baha'i Revelation this can be found first in the spiritual principles that are the standards of the contemporary world.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Islam also accepts Jesus as the messiah.

Indeed, Islam does, but has no clue what a messiah is. Moreover, the "Jesus" of the Qur'an is barely recognizable, IMO; which of course is why Muslims persistently criticize the one described by Christians in the books by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and go brain-dead when reading the rest of the Christian Scriptures; while the Baha'is nod their heads and affirm the Islamic Jesus and the orthodox Christian Jesus, then try to encourage Christian knuckleheads to believe that Baha'u'llah is the last Manifestation of God, previously having been Jesus Christ. Boingeddy-boing-boing.

 

[shunyadragon]

Indeed, Islam does, but has no clue what a messiah is. Moreover, the "Jesus" of the Qur'an is barely recognizable, IMO; which of course is why Muslims persistently criticize the one described by Christians in the books by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and go brain-dead when reading the rest of the Christian Scriptures; while the Baha'is nod their heads and affirm the Islamic Jesus and the orthodox Christian Jesus, then try to encourage Christian knuckleheads to believe that Baha'u'llah is the last Manifestation of God, previously having been Jesus Christ. Boingeddy-boing-boing.

It is simply a fact that the Quran recognizes Jesus Christ as a Manifestation of God. Muhammad definitely criticizes the corruption of beliefs in Christianity the assert God is a Trinity, and Jesus Christ is an incarnate God, which Jesus Christ denied in his own words. Yes, part of the progressive Revelation is the rejection of the corruption of in previous religions by human influence.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Over the top sarcasm.

I know, but do you think od19g6 will realize that and put me on his "Ignore" list? I don't.

 

[Terry Sampson]

It is simply a fact that the Quran recognizes Jesus Christ as a Manifestation of God.

LOL! I'd like to meet a Muslim who believes that the Jesus in the Qur'an "simply" satisfies the Baha'i definition of a "Manifestation of God", i.e. Manifestation of God - Wikipedia directly linked with the Baháʼí concept of progressive revelation.

Muhammad definitely criticizes the corruption of beliefs in Christianity the assert God is a Trinity, and Jesus Christ is an incarnate God, which Jesus Christ denied in his own words.

Right. Say "bye-bye" to

• the Trinity and the Incarnation and
• the Crucifixion, Entombment, Resurrection, and Ascension of Jesus;

and retain

• Jesus' "magical" fully human conception minus a human father's input,

and add

• Jesus' conversational skills as an infant in the crib at less than, what, a month or so of age,
• Jesus' noticeably atypical willingness to murder a kid that bumped him, and
• Jesus' ability to breathe life into a clay bird .

Did I miss anything? Oh yeah, ... and add Allah's mysterious failure to remember or understand the Judaic concept of Sons/Children of God and HaShem's "Fatherhood".

All of which, Baha'u'llah accepted, so far as I've been able to tell, and affirmed by affirming Muhammad and the Qur'an, ... and yet ‘Abdu'l-Bahá takes the position, regarding whether or not God is three or one, that He is both, which I gather from Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 113-115

So much for the

part of the progressive Revelation is the rejection of the corruption of in previous religions by human influence.

 

[shunyadragon]

All of which, Baha'u'llah accepted, so far as I've been able to tell, and affirmed by affirming Muhammad and the Qur'an, ... and yet ‘Abdu'l-Bahá takes the position, regarding whether or not God is three or one, that He is both, which I gather from Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 113-115

So much for the

One thing at a time Abdu'l Baha's reference here is to the spiritual nature and the physical incarnation of God. Please DO NOT take stuff out of context and incomplete.

 

[Rival]

Not all, and those who do are wrong, ... in my currently unshakeable opinion.

Then what's the point of Christianity and how do you reconcile this with what Paul said?

 

[shunyadragon]

• Jesus' conversational skills as an infant in the crib at less than, what, a month or so of age,
• Jesus' noticeably atypical willingness to murder a kid that bumped him, and
• Jesus' ability to breathe life into a clay bird .

I believe this is from a separate Arabic infancy gospel a rough copy of the Infancy Gospel of Thomas from ~150 AD and not the Quran. Neither of these documents are accepted by Islam nor Christianity Please document with reference if you believe it is in the Quran,

 

[Quintessence]

I will respond to this after some thought, but it does contain contradictions, and did not clearly respond to what I posted.

Yes, it is rather hard to be seen as clearly responding to what someone posts when the listener doesn't understand or follow what the speaker is talking about...

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes, it is rather hard to be seen as clearly responding to what someone posts when the listener doesn't understand or follow what the speaker is talking about...

I have followed you specifically and clearly. No problem.

 

[Quintessence]

I have followed you specifically and clearly. No problem.

That's not... I wasn't even...

I'll leave the jury out on whether or not any productive conversation can happen, but it isn't looking promising.

 

[Wandering Monk]

P.R. - a tool of usurpers. I'm inclined to believe that usurpers commonly hold to "replacement theology", wherein the usurpers claim divine or divinely inspired authority to supplant a previously existing "faith community". E.g. Islam supplants Judaism and Christianity, and does so (IMO) by alleging that the original faith community was Islamic but became corrupted [that is my current impression]. Through the revelation given Muhammad, "the true, correct, and original faith content" was restored. Baha'i goes even further, supplanting as many "faith communities" as it can swallow and digest.

IMO, any Christian community that claims to supplant Judaism errs in similar, but not identical, fashion. The difference between the Christian version of usurping and the Islamic/Baha'i versions of usurping is that many of the Christian usurpers still have some notion of Israel's God the Father but have split Him and His Holy Spirit into two separate Persons.

Book of Mormon subsumes Judaism and Christianity.

Bahai subsumes all three monotheistic faiths.

It's the song that never ends.