is public scool obsolete?

[Valjean]

Much like those who believe that private insurance companies are more efficient that a program like Medicare when the stats show it's simply not true-- not even close. Don't they realize who's paying for all that advertising and the investors?

No, instead all too many blindly believe the right-wing politicians who want to rake in on those investments and the lobbying efforts that support them while people suffer and die prematurely.

Next you'll be telling us that cost + profit is more than cost alone, or that retail is more than wholesale.

 

[PureX]

Catholic schools aren't about profit?
Hah!
The Catholic Church plays the religion game to avoid taxation.
But I also know other people who got wonderful educations at private schools.
And there's a highly respected one just down the street from me.
It even has it's own observatory for studying astronomy.

Avoiding the issue?
Nah....I just don't want to invest much effort in a rigorous argument against conspiracy theories.
They're nicht einmal falsch, & not amenable to evidence or reason.

Biased and cherry-picked anecdotes aren't evidence of anything. Nor are they a reasoned response to anything. But as I see you call yourself a "capitalist libertarian", I knew to expect nothing more.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

we have a state v private school dichotomy in the UK.

Private schools generally have excellent results because they have to publish them.
Parents are not so foolish as to send their children to expensive schools with poor results.
However some private schools specialise in getting the most out of dumb or failing students. and they rarely if ever have complete failures, or top results. so they have a place in the spectrum of the system.

I find it hard to see what motivated local government schools to do better than average in the results tables.
never the less some such state schools get excellent results, and are heavily over subscribed with applicants.
Others are abysmal.

At an academic level our schools are well down the international achievement tables in some subjects and well below some Eastern countries. However our students seem to do rather better at University, where learning and results depend more on a students own endeavours. rather than being force fed information.

My Grand daughter recently graduated from her local council senior school, after transferring from a private school. because this state school has a reputation for exceptional results. She was a Straight A* student and received Unconditional offers from some universities. She is now reading Law.

Our system might be underfunded but the results are more Patchy than bad.

 

[PureX]

Next you'll be telling us that cost + profit is more than cost alone, or that retail is more than wholesale.

The conspiracy theories abound !!!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Catholic schools aren't about profit?
Hah!
The Catholic Church plays the religion game to avoid taxation.
But I also know other people who got wonderful educations at private schools.
And there's a highly respected one just down the street from me.
It even has it's own observatory for studying astronomy.

The issue with private schools is few can afford them. Why should America not have high standards that are universal in all schools, public and private, to ensure our future is well educated, rather than having a "hit and mostly miss" approach to a good education as we currently have?

 

[PureX]

we have a state v private school dichotomy in the UK.

Private schools generally have excellent results because they have to publish them.
Parents are not so foolish as to send their children to expensive schools with poor results.
However some private schools specialize in getting the most out of dumb or failing students. and they rarely if ever have complete failures, or top results. so they have a place in the spectrum of the system.

I find it hard to see what motivated local government schools to do better than average in the results tables.

What should motivate them is that the officials overseeing those public schools need to get elected, and re-elected. And the parents should be wanting the government to pay the people delivering the education enough to "motivate" them to do well, also. The idea that there can no motivation to excel in a government run enterprise is just more BS from the plutocrat's and their toadies.

 

[Revoltingest]

Next you'll be telling us that cost + profit is more than cost alone, or that retail is more than wholesale.

Cost + profit can indeed be less than cost....if the former is private, & the latter is governmental.
I manage property, & I see what I spend. I also see what our local government does managing
property. I do the same job (or better) for far less. The same goes for friends in the tree work
business. In that area, our fair city has wised up, & is outsourcing much more work in order
to save money. Everyone wins....business, city, taxpayers....except for the lazy union types.

When the city cuts down trees, they just dispose of the waste.
What does a private company do?
- Everything chipped is double ground & dyed for sale as mulch.
- Logs are milled, kiln dried, & sold as high end table tops & lumber.

 

[Revoltingest]

The issue with private schools is few can afford them.

That wasn't the issue which the poster raised though, ie, being all about profit,
& minimizing educational value.
I'm still in favor of public schools, & in improving them, particularly in poorer areas.

 

[Revoltingest]

.....you call yourself a "capitalist libertarian", I knew to expect nothing more.

I suspected that you dinna like my ilk.
And you might've noticed that I'm no fan of using conspiracy theories to push big government.
To each his own, eh.

 

[PureX]

Cost + profit can indeed be less than cost....if the former is private, & the latter is governmental.
I manage property, & I see what I spend. I also see what our local government does managing
property. I do the same job for far less. The same goes for friends in the tree maintenance
business. In that area, our fair city has wised up, & is outsourcing much more work in order
to save money. Everyone wins....business, city, taxpayers....except for the lazy union types.

If the government is corrupt, sure. But then the issue isn't with the excessive cost of government, it's with the excessive cost of government corruption. And the solution is not privatization, it's eliminating the government corruption.

 

[metis]

As one who was involved in public education for 36 years, there's plenty of motivation to do better. When I signed on in 1967, I worked for half I could have earned if I had taken the job I was offered at Monsanto, plus I would have less chance for promotions unless I went out and got another degree.

And then we are constantly scrutinized by administrators and other staff, parents, and the students themselves, which needs to go with the job we do. At the end of each course, I had the students fill out a confidential survey that they could drop off, and I paid close attention to what was said and also what was not said.
Like with most other jobs, pride comes in as well, and most educators that I know took pride in their work-- but certainly not all of them.

 

[Revoltingest]

.....the solution is not privatization, it's eliminating the government corruption.

It's worth minimizing, but it's not a solution.
We've always had it.
We always will.
When privatization is better &/or cheaper, it's a good approach.
One should not be blindly devoted to one extreme or the other.

 

[metis]

If the government is corrupt, sure. But then the issue isn't with the excessive cost of government, it's with the excessive cost of government corruption.

And the FBI has estimated that there is roughly four times more money involved in white-collar crime than in all the street crime combined. And how much corruption did Trump have? Madoff? etc? And how much of it was really caught? [rhetorical]

At least with government there's some oversight, which is sometimes lacking in business with the exception of those that have unions.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

What should motivate them is that the officials overseeing those public schools need to get elected, and re-elected. And the parents should be wanting the government to pay the people delivering the education enough to "motivate" them to do well, also. The idea that there can no motivation to excel in a government run enterprise is just more BS from the plutocrat's and their toadies.

We have an almost total disconnect between who is elected, the local education department. and the governors and head of the school. Each are responsible for different aspects of education and the system.

A new departure of privately run Free schools is directly funded by the government. so is neither man nor beast. they have had a very patchy record so far, and some have been closed because of it. others have failed for lack of students.

 

[metis]

I haven't met a libertarian, yet, that wasn't an idiot or a fool of one kind or another.

Hey, wait a minute-- I'm what's called a "left-libertarian". You know, unlike the "right-libertarians" that only really care about themselves, us "lefties" actually care about others.

BTW, my closest match on the test I took is Gandhi-- but people know me a lot better than they know him. What did he ever accomplish?!

 

[PureX]

When privatization is better &/or cheaper, it's a good approach.
One should not be blindly devoted to one extreme or the other.

Except it almost never is, especially regarding captive markets, as opposed to free markets. And in a modern, complex, interdependent society, most markets have become captive markets, meaning the buyers have to buy, and the sellers therefor have a monopoly. And economic exploitation inevitably follows.

 

[Revoltingest]

At least with government there's some oversight, which is sometimes lacking in business with the exception of those that have unions.

Oversight of government?
I disagree that it's held more accountable.
Sure, sure...voters can give malefactors the boot, but they don't have a good record on this.
Examples.....
Currently, Ann Arbor is violating state law by using building permit revenue as a profit center.
Everyone knows it.....builders can't force change, government is too dependent upon the money.
Homeowners & others are the losers here.
When the state was illegally increasing property tax assessments, I'd spend tens of thousands
per year on appeals. I always won. Yet there are no sanctions against the state's illegal acts.
Changing governors & parties changed nothing.

When government misbehaves, if I don't like them, the only option is to move outside the jurisdiction.
But if I don't like the service I get from contractors or my bank, I can fire them immediately, & replace them.
Now that is accountability.

 

[PureX]

Hey, wait a minute-- I'm what's called a "left-libertarian". You know, unlike the "right-libertarians" that only really care about themselves, us "lefties" actually care about others.

That's good you care about others. But humans need government and the rule of law to live together successfully. Because in the end something has to mediate between the desires of the individual, and the needs of the collective. And something has to enforce that mediation.

Our only real threat on Earth is ourselves and each other.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hey, wait a minute-- I'm what's called a "left-libertarian". You know, unlike the "right-libertarians" that only really care about themselves, us "lefties" actually care about others.

BTW, my closest match on the test I took is Gandhi-- but people know me a lot better than they know him. What did he ever accomplish?!

Face it, you're an idiot just like me.
(I think our friend has anger issues.)

 

[Stevicus]

I have seen the following video on America's education system

and corroborating this with my own experience in the system from K-12, i begin to wonder: Is there any point in public schools being a thing anymore? What purpose does papers with narrow deadlines have in the real world (Blue collar and White collar jobs alike)?

Not sure if it applies to K-12 entirely, but looking back over my school years, I've reached the conclusion that K-6 was about as useless as can be, mainly because of far too much "fluff" and not enough actual learning. I absolutely hated elementary school and didn't really start to come into my own until I reached secondary school. All that I learned in elementary school could have been compressed into 2 years instead of lasting for 6. I also didn't relate well to the culture and dynamics of how elementary schools operate.