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is public scool obsolete?

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Well, they had businesses in the USSR and PRC.
But the private businesses were entirely illegal, & because of this depended upon & fostered governmental corruption.
Plus, they also had dealings with other countries which did have businesses more like ours, so the potential for corruption was always there. One could suggest that the fall of the USSR itself (and China's concurrent shift towards capitalism) were acts of corruption, in and of themselves.
Do you suggest that we corrupted these socialist countries?

I find merit in the argument that Russia has so much organized crime is because it thrived under
Soviet rule, & became so integrated that moving to capitalism carried that culture along. People
I know who've lived in & done business in Russia & China see much governmental corruption.
Their leaders wanted a life of wealth and luxury, and that's what they got. (I'm not sure that Stalin or Mao would have approved, though.)
Tis human nature.
Good system design should take our wanton tendencies into account.
Incentivize against corruption...find it....prosecute it.
I think that our own Founders implemented the system of checks and balances as a way of keeping tyranny and corruption at bay. We may not be able to change human nature or the propensity towards corruption - but we can keep a better eye on it and rein it in when necessary.
It's a system which despite imperfections still beats many others.
I agree that there are some systemic changes that can be made to alleviate and minimize the damage caused by corruption. The proposal to prevent job-hopping after police misconduct sounds promising and something I would support.
Woo hoo! Detente!
But using that example, I would point up that one problem with corruption at that level is that in our culture, there is too much "faith" in the system that blinds people to the lower side of human nature. I see it all the time whenever there's some public discussion after some newsworthy example of police misconduct. There are far too many people willing to rush forward and run interference to protect rotten cops because they've been raised to have too much respect for "authority" and too much blind faith in the "system." That, I believe, goes to the very root of the "big lie" and why corruption is able to persist.
We'll never eliminate corruption.
The best we can do is continually design & operate systems which
minimize it....without becoming oppressively authoritarian.
For similar reasons, it's why the priest abuse scandals were allowed to fester for as long as they did before anything was done about it. A common view is that priests are "men of God" and would never do anything wrong. To accuse a priest was considered tantamount to blaspheming against God - unless one had incontrovertible evidence and solid proof of an extraordinary degree (which is extremely difficult, if not impossible).

It hasn't escaped notice that when a high-level official is accused, they get far greater consideration than those at the lower levels of society. I've heard it suggested that if O.J. Simpson was just another poor black man from the ghetto, he would have been found guilty in less than day. But because he was a rich and famous celebrity, he was treated differently. He could afford high-priced lawyers and drag the trial on for months - and the system allows this.

This phenomenon, just by itself, is an example of corruption at the highest levels. Vincent Bugliosi wrote a book about the O.J. trial and also mentioned that there is a phenomenon in the legal system and in our culture where judges are elevated to some "sacrosanct" level where people are blinded by faith and think of them as infallible and incorruptible.

It may have something to do with the black robes they wear, making them look more like priests in the eyes of the public. Judges even have the power to summarily lock someone up for blasphemy, although they call it "contempt of court." We wouldn't like it if the President had the power to lock up anyone who mouths off to him, yet society seems to be okay with the idea of giving judges that kind of power. Doesn't seem right to me, and it's yet another avenue towards corruption and abuse of power.

My view is that the best way to eliminate abuses of power is to take away that power and put it back in the hands of the people (but not business). The business community and capitalism has its own "faithful adherents" who are willing to turn the blind eye to their misdeeds as well.
I'd like to see reform which treats the high & mighty the same as the dregs of society.
Ain't nobody perfect. And because of this, I like the freedom to vote with my pocketbook.
The private sector (business) gives me this. Government does not.
So there should be a mix of both, with reasonable regulation.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
There's nothing "fiscally conservative" about libertarian economic ideology.

Let's take a look at the definition:

"Fiscal conservatism is a political-economic philosophy regarding fiscal policy and fiscal responsibility advocating low taxes, reduced government spending and minimal government debt. Free trade, deregulation of the economy, lower taxes, and privatization are also the defining qualities of fiscal conservatism." - wikipedia

So it would appear that you were either confused about fiscal conservativism, libertarianism, or both.

And anarchy isn't liberalism.

No one said that it was, not that it's relevant either way.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Let's take a look at the definition:

"Fiscal conservatism is a political-economic philosophy regarding fiscal policy and fiscal responsibility advocating low taxes, reduced government spending and minimal government debt. Free trade, deregulation of the economy, lower taxes, and privatization are also the defining qualities of fiscal conservatism." - wikipedia
But that isn't fiscal conservatism. That's radicalized capitalism. I know it's the popular lie that radical capitalists tell; that they are "fiscally conservative", but they aren't. They're lying. And you bought their lie.

A fiscal conservative is someone who wants to maintain the economic status quo. Someone who wants to CONSERVE and maintain the commercial laws and trading practices of the recent past so as to minimize risk and change in the future. Fiscal conservatives are almost always the wealthy because what they really want to "conserve" is their own wealth, and the systemic advantages that allowed them to acquire it.

Increased "free trade, deregulation of the economy, lower taxes, and privatization" are NOT tenets of fiscal conservatism. They are the tenets of fiscal radicals, promoting economic anarchy so that they can be free to exploit and abuse others with impunity, and for their own profit.
So it would appear that you were either confused about fiscal conservativism, libertarianism, or both.
I'm not confused at all. You just didn't bother to think things through, because you liked the lies and the fantasies that these greedy radicals calling themselves 'libertarians' and self-proclaimed "fiscal conservatives" have been spewing.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
How would you go about punishing Congressional and business members of groups such as ALEC?
Those groups have no power over legislators if we stop the legalized bribery, and enforce effective laws against legislative manipulation.

Also, we used to have laws in this country preventing business owners and CEOs from meeting and "fixing" prices, wages, and influencing politicians; or from consolidating to create giant market monopolies. And those laws worked well until our corrupt legislators began taking legalized bribes to nullify those laws.

Such corruption is not inevitable, though. And does not have to be tolerated.
 
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Father Heathen

Veteran Member
But that isn't fiscal conservatism. That's radicalized capitalism. I know it's the popular lie that radical capitalists tell; that they are "fiscally conservative", but they aren't. They're lying. And you bought their lie.

A fiscal conservative is someone who wants to maintain the economic status quo. Someone who wants to CONSERVE and maintain the commercial laws and trading practices of the recent past so as to minimize risk and change in the future. Fiscal conservatives are almost always the wealthy because what they really want to "conserve" is their own wealth, and the systemic advantages that allowed them to acquire it.

Increased "free trade, deregulation of the economy, lower taxes, and privatization" are NOT tenets of fiscal conservatism. They are the tenets of fiscal radicals, promoting economic anarchy so that they can be free to exploit and abuse others with impunity, and for their own profit.
I'm not confused at all. You just didn't bother to think things through, because you liked the lies and the fantasies that these greedy radicals calling themselves 'libertarians' and self-proclaimed "fiscal conservatives" have been spewing.

I'll just smile and nod.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
But that isn't fiscal conservatism. That's radicalized capitalism. I know it's the popular lie that radical capitalists tell; that they are "fiscally conservative", but they aren't. They're lying. And you bought their lie.
Geeze Louise....someone's got anger issues.
An anti-libertarian mischievously redefines what we stand for, & calls us stupid, fools, & liars, eh.
If you're gonna go nuclear (& violate RF rules), you should first put some effort into understanding
the opposition. It's OK to have different goals & values....disagreement needn't be rancorous.
Then perhaps you could use reasoned argument to disagree...instead of straw men & insults.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
For what?
For being a part of the problem in that some members of Congress meet with corporate executives to discuss legislation, often enough times passing it word-for-word, line-for-line, as ALEC members want. These corporate executives are not elected officials, and they need to back the **** off and do it like the rest of Americans do, protesting and writing letters and making phones calls and going to town hall meetings, not making dinner reservations and formulating plans for "you scratch my back I'll scratch yours."
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
For being a part of the problem in that some members of Congress meet with corporate executives to discuss legislation, often enough times passing it word-for-word, line-for-line, as ALEC members want. These corporate executives are not elected officials, and they need to back the **** off and do it like the rest of Americans do, protesting and writing letters and making phones calls and going to town hall meetings, not making dinner reservations and formulating plans for "you scratch my back I'll scratch yours."
I'm thinking more of specific crimes.
But consider.....
Politicians so often know too little about particular industries to write legislation without input from the industry.
This must somehow be allowed & managed.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Geeze Louise....someone's got anger issues.
An anti-libertarian mischievously redefines what we stand for, & calls us stupid, fools, & liars, eh.
If you're gonna go nuclear (& violate RF rules), you should first put some effort into understanding
the opposition. It's OK to have different goals & values....disagreement needn't be rancorous.
Then perhaps you could use reasoned argument to disagree...instead of straw men & insults.
This why it's pointless to even try to discuss things with a self-avowed libertarian. They use the ultra-right's alternate-reality dictionary to apply new meanings to the words they use to define their alternate reality, they use the the ultra-right's alternative history books, the ultra-right's upside down theory of economics, and the ultra-right's inclination to discredit anyone who opposes them by whatever means they can, rather than to debate the ideas. And then they cry "foul" the moment someone calls a spade, a spade, and accuses them of being 'ultra-right'.

It's just an exercise in futility for anyone that dares to poke a hole in their alternate reality by suggesting that it's a load of baloney.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Right, because you certainly wouldn't want to actually consider the real and historical meaning of the term "fiscal conservative". As opposed to the meaning of a term like "radicalized capitalist".

Kid, I'm just going by the definitions that have been long established by all of the dictionaries and encyclopedias and accepted by the rest of society. I'm sorry if the topic of libertarianism is one that triggers emotional distress, and I understand if the creation of straw men functions as a sort of coping mechanism, but unfortunately I'm not really inclined to humor it.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
This why it's pointless to even try to discuss things with a self-avowed libertarian. They use the ultra-right's alternate-reality dictionary to apply new meanings to the words they use to define their alternate reality, they use the the ultra-right's alternative history books, the ultra-right's upside down theory of economics, and the ultra-right's inclination to discredit anyone who opposes them by whatever means they can, rather than to debate the ideas. And then they cry "foul" the moment someone calls a spade, a spade, and accuses them of being 'ultra-right'.

It's just an exercise in futility for anyone that dares to poke a hole in their alternate reality by suggesting that it's a load of baloney.
Just look up the Libertarian Party platform.
That should cure your misimpressions.

Btw, my alternate reality is better than your alternate reality.
(The taxes are lower, & there's less war.)
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
But the private businesses were entirely illegal, & because of this depended upon & fostered governmental corruption.

One thing that I learned while visiting the USSR back in the 80s (and this was true in my studies as well), a lot of things that the Soviet government declared "illegal" wasn't always the case, not on paper. They had a constitution which, on paper, sounded reasonable and was not much different from our own.

Do you suggest that we corrupted these socialist countries?

No, not us, but I was referring to other countries (some of which were neutral/non-aligned). Most people were aware of the luxury goods available in the West, and they wanted them. They also wanted records and tapes. They liked the Beatles a lot, as I recall. I thought there was some irony in that a lot of people over here once thought the Beatles were a communist plot.

Part of the problem (which could be partly our fault) is that they wanted Western goods, but couldn't buy them with rubles, since we didn't accept rubles. We forced them to pay in foreign currency, which they didn't have enough of. That's how they also explained why they couldn't get Western music, entertainment, or publications - not because they were banned or censored, but because they didn't have the currency to pay for those things.

I find merit in the argument that Russia has so much organized crime is because it thrived under
Soviet rule, & became so integrated that moving to capitalism carried that culture along. People
I know who've lived in & done business in Russia & China see much governmental corruption.

Yes, although it depends on how you define "organized crime." It's true that their economy started to become more dependent upon the "gray market," where goods and services were traded among workers and managers - a trading of "favors," which might be a characteristic of organized crime. Now, if you're referring to the KGB and other government organs, they already had an international network established since the Cold War.

When I was there, trading foreign currency was illegal, unless you did so in a bank at the official exchange rate (which was $1.33 = 1 ruble at the time). However, on the street, you could get 3 or 4 rubles to the dollar - a much better deal.

Tis human nature.
Good system design should take our wanton tendencies into account.
Incentivize against corruption...find it....prosecute it.

Yeah, I suppose, although there is a downside to that as well - something that exists in our own country, the concept of "keeping up with the Joneses." As far as human nature goes, is it really human nature to want these things? Or is it more a matter of wanting to feel better than others by having a lot of expensive luxuries that one may not really need? I've heard people who grew up poor say that they didn't even know that they were "poor" until they realized how much others have that they didn't have.

It's a system which despite imperfections still beats many others.

Perhaps so, but maybe it can be made even better.

Woo hoo! Detente!

We'll never eliminate corruption.
The best we can do is continually design & operate systems which
minimize it....without becoming oppressively authoritarian.

It's trying to find that balance which is elusive.

I'd like to see reform which treats the high & mighty the same as the dregs of society.

YES! We can have detente.

Ain't nobody perfect. And because of this, I like the freedom to vote with my pocketbook.
The private sector (business) gives me this. Government does not.
So there should be a mix of both, with reasonable regulation.

Well, we do have some freedom with our government, as well as the ability to vote out politicians we don't like. If it turns out to not work so well, then the blame could also be leveled at the electorate - who also comprise the markets by which the private sector operates.

A stupid, spineless, easily-manipulated electorate can lead to bad government, just as stupid, spineless, easily-manipulated consumers can lead to bad business. While we often try to separate the public and private sectors, they often blend together, since it's really all just people. Humans are the real problem. Humans can be totally messed up at times. If there is no God to intervene, then maybe we can hope the Vulcans come and civilize us. ;)

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
One thing that I learned while visiting the USSR back in the 80s (and this was true in my studies as well), a lot of things that the Soviet government declared "illegal" wasn't always the case, not on paper. They had a constitution which, on paper, sounded reasonable and was not much different from our own.
Of course, if a country operates a system which subverts
its constitution, then that constitution becomes insignificant.
A system is what it does....not what it claims on paper.
..... a lot of people over here once thought the Beatles were a communist plot.
I'll wager it wasn't "a lot".
Part of the problem (which could be partly our fault) is that they wanted Western goods, but couldn't buy them with rubles, since we didn't accept rubles. We forced them to pay in foreign currency, which they didn't have enough of. That's how they also explained why they couldn't get Western music, entertainment, or publications - not because they were banned or censored, but because they didn't have the currency to pay for those things.
I'll pass on accepting any blame for Soviets wanting western goods they couldn't afford.
They should look to their own government for mismanaging their economy.

Old Russian saying about the 4 problems with collectivized agriculture....
"Spring, summer, fall & winter"
Yes, although it depends on how you define "organized crime." It's true that their economy started to become more dependent upon the "gray market," where goods and services were traded among workers and managers - a trading of "favors," which might be a characteristic of organized crime. Now, if you're referring to the KGB and other government organs, they already had an international network established since the Cold War.
If it's organized, & it's illegal, then I'd call it "organized crime".
Yeah, I suppose, although there is a downside to that as well - something that exists in our own country, the concept of "keeping up with the Joneses." As far as human nature goes, is it really human nature to want these things? Or is it more a matter of wanting to feel better than others by having a lot of expensive luxuries that one may not really need? I've heard people who grew up poor say that they didn't even know that they were "poor" until they realized how much others have that they didn't have.
I can't fathom the motive that one accumulates luxuries in order to "feel better than others".
Would that motivate you?
I see that luxuries simply have their own value.
But I do notice that people with any level of income & wealth will allow their spending level
rise to the limit of that income & wealth. Age seems to mitigate that...many of us doddering
types facing retirement are scaling back on things which demand money & effort.
Perhaps so, but maybe it can be made even better.
Aye, and this will always be true.
But we might differ on just what constitutes "better".
It's trying to find that balance which is elusive.
If you keep up these reasonable observations, you'll bore observers looking for a donnybrook.
YES! We can have detente.
Fleeting moments of it.
Well, we do have some freedom with our government, as well as the ability to vote out politicians we don't like. If it turns out to not work so well, then the blame could also be leveled at the electorate - who also comprise the markets by which the private sector operates.
A problem with voting out politicians is that other people (with differing values) also vote.
The net effect is that the individual has no effective power in government.
But if I hire a building contractor, & dislike their work, it's entirely within my power to fire'm.
Example:
Amerigas was providing high propane prices & poor service.
So I replaced'm.
Now I have cheap propane, better tanks, & better service.
I can't do that with government offices.
A stupid, spineless, easily-manipulated electorate can lead to bad government, just as stupid, spineless, easily-manipulated consumers can lead to bad business.
But a "stupid, spineless, easily-manipulated electorate" is beyond my control.
So government will be what it will be, no matter how I vote.
But companies I do business with can be told "You're fired!".
This minimizes the deleterious effect of your aforementioned electorate.
While we often try to separate the public and private sectors, they often blend together, since it's really all just people. Humans are the real problem. Humans can be totally messed up at times. If there is no God to intervene, then maybe we can hope the Vulcans come and civilize us. ;)
Vulcans....a rigid society which also has its own brand of corruption, conformity & barbarism.
Don't make me cite episodes!

Anyway, I want a separation of powers regarding business & government.
The latter should create an environment conducive to beneficial commerce,
but not intervene. Intervention....therein lies maximum opportunity for mischief.
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
Such a mentality was used to justify the military draft.
So I find this a shibboleth of the many who would exploit the few.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Of course, if a country operates a system which subverts
its constitution, then that constitution becomes insignificant.
A system is what it does....not what it claims on paper.

Yes, but that's also just as true for us. Many people cite our Constitution as some kind of "glorious document," but there have been times where our government didn't follow it either.

I'll pass on accepting any blame for Soviets wanting western goods they couldn't afford.
They should look to their own government for mismanaging their economy.

Maybe, although the West was not exactly a "passive bystander" either.

Old Russian saying about the 4 problems with collectivized agriculture....
"Spring, summer, fall & winter"

They did have problems in that area, yes. There are reasons for this, although I'm trying to resist writing long blocks of text to explain it.

The short answer is that the previous Tsarist regime left things in such an unholy mess, not to mention the ravages of WW1 and their Civil War. They didn't have much to work with at the start, with Russia already being 100 years behind the West. They did make some improvements, and their economy was far from non-functional. Their performance in WW2 proved this (in contrast to their dismal performance in WW1), as well as their ability to keep up with and surpass the West in the arms race which took place during the Cold War. But they did so at the expense of the luxuries and consumer goods that their people wanted.

If it's organized, & it's illegal, then I'd call it "organized crime".

Then that would cover quite a bit of territory. Even our own government and Wall Street (among others) could be implicated.

I can't fathom the motive that one accumulates luxuries in order to "feel better than others".
Would that motivate you?

No, but I've observed the phenomenon quite often. I'm sure you've heard of "status symbols." It doesn't apply to everyone, but it's widespread enough to be noticed. I'm reminded of an old commercial for beauty products where a model says she buys the most expensive brand because "I'm worth it." I think this attitude has pervaded the culture to a noticeable degree.

I see that luxuries simply have their own value.
But I do notice that people with any level of income & wealth will allow their spending level
rise to the limit of that income & wealth. Age seems to mitigate that...many of us doddering
types facing retirement are scaling back on things which demand money & effort.

Maybe it's just a matter of becoming more mellow as one ages.

Aye, and this will always be true.
But we might differ on just what constitutes "better".

The thing is, even in our own country, we've already seen "better." Some might say our best days are behind us and that we're now facing a slow decline (often with comparisons to the Roman Empire).

If you keep up these reasonable observations, you'll bore observers looking for a donnybrook.

Don't worry, I'm sure run into someone with a chip on their shoulder. Seems to be a thing around here (or any message board for that matter).

Fleeting moments of it.

A problem with voting out politicians is that other people (with differing values) also vote.
The net effect is that the individual has no effective power in government.

Yes, that's one of the pitfalls.

But if I hire a building contractor, & dislike their work, it's entirely within my power to fire'm.
Example:
Amerigas was providing high propane prices & poor service.
So I replaced'm.
Now I have cheap propane, better tanks, & better service.
I can't do that with government offices.

I can still see many of the same pitfalls, though. What if the contractor or gas company (or any business) you like suddenly goes out of business? Then you're stuck dealing with whoever is left, based on what other customers in the marketplace have chosen. So, you can still be "outvoted" and left having to deal with the lesser of two evils, just like voters face at every election.

There's also the Walmart effect, where the smaller mom-and-pop businesses just can't compete with the corporate giants.

But a "stupid, spineless, easily-manipulated electorate" is beyond my control.
So government will be what it will be, no matter how I vote.
But companies I do business with can be told "You're fired!".
This minimizes the deleterious effect of your aforementioned electorate.

Minimizes it, perhaps, but as I mentioned above, if there are too many suckers supporting a bad business, then they'll stay in business, despite your firing them. They're in a position where they don't have to care if they get your business or not, since they have so many other customers. And if the business you choose suddenly isn't there anymore, then you'd be in the same position as voters whose preferred candidate was voted out.

The only real difference is that, unlike voting where it's "one man, one vote," the number of votes you have in the marketplace depends on how many dollars you have.

However, by the same token, if you have enough dollars to buy TV time and other avenues of influence, you might just very well be able to have some level of control over those "stupid, spineless, easily-manipulated" voters. And as many have been alleging lately, even those with a lot of rubles can also exert such control over the electorate. Rubles, euros, pounds, yen, piasters, pesos - it all spends.

Vulcans....a rigid society which also has its own brand of corruption, conformity & barbarism.
Don't make me cite episodes!

But they're also a very disciplined society and have brains like computers. Not to mention the Vulcan mind meld and the Vulcan neck pinch. Of course, they did have the drawback of mating only once per 7 years.

Anyway, I want a separation of powers regarding business & government.
The latter should create an environment conducive to beneficial commerce,
but not intervene. Intervention....therein lies maximum opportunity for mischief.

I think my view of business might be similar to your view of government - the smaller, the better. I'm not necessarily advocating complete socialism like the USSR was. But perhaps if we eliminated corporations altogether (unless their only stockholders are their employees and no one else) and only allowed individual proprietorships, partnerships, and family businesses, that might be an improvement. Perhaps they should also be confined within states and not allowed to become national or international companies with centralized authority - which can make them just as bad and mischievous as centralized national governments.

The best way to avoid abuses of power is to reduce the amount of power, no matter if it's in the public sector or the private sector.

Such a mentality was used to justify the military draft.
So I find this a shibboleth of the many who would exploit the few.

The military draft was the result of the few exploiting and deceiving the many. But as mentioned above, the many are a bunch of spineless suckers, and they went along with it and called it "patriotism" and "protecting our freedom." But it had very little do with their needs, nor did they even derive much benefit from it. It only benefited the "few," and that's the problem we're facing today.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Yes, but that's also just as true for us. Many people cite our Constitution as some kind of "glorious document," but there have been times where our government didn't follow it either.
Attempts to subvert our Constitution notwithstanding, we still follow it fairly well.
If the USSR, as you say, had a similar constitution, its implementation sure differed with ours.
Maybe, although the West was not exactly a "passive bystander" either.
Still trying to blame us for their woes, are you?
I don't know what you're getting at, since I'm more vocal
than most here in criticizing our overseas meddling.
So why point out the obvious to me of all people?
They did have problems in that area, yes. There are reasons for this, although I'm trying to resist writing long blocks of text to explain it.
Of course there are reasons, & more than 4 of them....
Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter, central management, collectivization, & a murderous regime.
The short answer is that the previous Tsarist regime left things in such an unholy mess, not to mention the ravages of WW1 and their Civil War. They didn't have much to work with at the start, with Russia already being 100 years behind the West. They did make some improvements, and their economy was far from non-functional. Their performance in WW2 proved this (in contrast to their dismal performance in WW1), as well as their ability to keep up with and surpass the West in the arms race which took place during the Cold War. But they did so at the expense of the luxuries and consumer goods that their people wanted.
I'd wager that if people owned their own farms, they'd have had more incentive to be productive
than having been cogs in a giant machine which spread the fruits of their labors around to others.
Then that would cover quite a bit of territory. Even our own government and Wall Street (among others) could be implicated.
Where there's a crime, prosecute.
I'd go further to strongly prohibit crony capitalism.
No, but I've observed the phenomenon quite often. I'm sure you've heard of "status symbols." It doesn't apply to everyone, but it's widespread enough to be noticed. I'm reminded of an old commercial for beauty products where a model says she buys the most expensive brand because "I'm worth it." I think this attitude has pervaded the culture to a noticeable degree.
You're not making a case for the claim that it's about being better than someone else.
Why reject the simple explanation of wanting to luxuriate in wealth, comfort, & ease?
Perhaps it's easier to criticize them if you can paint them as somehow despising those below?
The thing is, even in our own country, we've already seen "better." Some might say our best days are behind us and that we're now facing a slow decline (often with comparisons to the Roman Empire).
We make some progress....we lose some ground in other areas.
Opinions will vary about the details.
I think things are generally better, but progress requires vigilance.
I can still see many of the same pitfalls, though. What if the contractor or gas company (or any business) you like suddenly goes out of business? Then you're stuck dealing with whoever is left, based on what other customers in the marketplace have chosen. So, you can still be "outvoted" and left having to deal with the lesser of two evils, just like voters face at every election.
You're proposing a scenario in which markets aren't free enuf to allow choice.
This is why I oppose monopolies.

As for the gas company example, our state used to grant monopolies.
But now I can use an "alternative energy supplier" who gets to use the common infrastructure.
I also have the option of going propane, where there's more competition.
I'll use either option (& firewood), depending upon the property location, & relative cost.
Choice is good.
And no one can vote down mine down.

Are you arguing that I do not have choice in the private sector?
Or that government offers me more choice?
There's also the Walmart effect, where the smaller mom-and-pop businesses just can't compete with the corporate giants.
Competition has winners & losers.
"Mom & pop" have no right to my business, so if someone else offers a better deal, I'll take it.
But the better deal is often at smaller businesses, which is how I & my associates survive...by
being better than our larger competition.
Note also That Walmart faces still competition too...so stiff that I rarely ever buy anything from Walmart. Amazon, Menards, Amazon, Aldi & others are better.
(Amazon is the one you should really be worrying about.)
Minimizes it, perhaps, but as I mentioned above, if there are too many suckers supporting a bad business, then they'll stay in business, despite your firing them. They're in a position where they don't have to care if they get your business or not, since they have so many other customers. And if the business you choose suddenly isn't there anymore, then you'd be in the same position as voters whose preferred candidate was voted out.
This is just specious speculation....the notion that some lousy company will survive because
some consumers make bad choices. That's their problem...& it shouldn't limit my choices.
But were that true, then it's wonderful that I have the liberty to take my business elsewhere.
This is what I advocate....competition & freedom of choice.
It beats trusting a single government source for something.
The only real difference is that, unlike voting where it's "one man, one vote," the number of votes you have in the marketplace depends on how many dollars you have.
If someone has $X to spend, then their vote is worth $X.
If I have $10X to spend, then my vote certainly should be 10 times greater.

It seems you oppose my having power over how I spend my own money
because I might have more than someone else. But you'd give all power
to government, where my vote matters not one whit. Pi$$ on that!
But they're also a very disciplined society and have brains like computers. Not to mention the Vulcan mind meld and the Vulcan neck pinch. Of course, they did have the drawback of mating only once per 7 years.
Vulcans are the party poopers of the galaxy.
I've no desire to emulate their repressed rage, lapses into violence, rigidity & conformity.

I'll bet you rooted for the Borg...so orderly & efficient.
I think my view of business might be similar to your view of government - the smaller, the better. I'm not necessarily advocating complete socialism like the USSR was. But perhaps if we eliminated corporations altogether (unless their only stockholders are their employees and no one else) and only allowed individual proprietorships, partnerships, and family businesses, that might be an improvement. Perhaps they should also be confined within states and not allowed to become national or international companies with centralized authority - which can make them just as bad and mischievous as centralized national governments.
To propose the elimination of the corporate form of ownership would be economically devastating
to the country because raising of capital for aggregating effort would become impossible for
industries like auto making, airlines, pharmaceuticals, etc, etc.

Corporations are just one form of ownership, & there's nothing inherently worse about it than
sole proprietorships, partnerships, or LLCs. "Corporation" is just the left's boogeyman.
The best way to avoid abuses of power is to reduce the amount of power, no matter if it's in the public sector or the private sector.
To reduce private sector power would mean an increase in governmental power over
companies & citizens. What I propose is overall less governmental power over us,
but better quality regulation where the benefits outweigh the costs.
The military draft was the result of the few exploiting and deceiving the many.
Who was deceiving whom?
Nah....it's about a majority deciding which minority should die for the benefit of
the majority. Tis not deception, but rather the seizing of power over others,
appropriating their life & liberty without compensation other than the bare minimum.
But as mentioned above, the many are a bunch of spineless suckers, and they went along with it and called it "patriotism" and "protecting our freedom." But it had very little do with their needs, nor did they even derive much benefit from it. It only benefited the "few," and that's the problem we're facing today.
In the case of some wars, it really was about protecting the country, eg, WW2.
But lately, both Dems & Pubs have fought wars which didn't need fighting.
They'd force only healthy straight males with low draft lottery numbers to bear the
brunt of the dismemberment & dying, while everyone else stayed home & carped.
That's government's idea of "choice" for you.
 
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Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Attempts to subvert our Constitution notwithstanding, we still follow it fairly well.

Only because the Supreme Court says we do. Of course, that's what the Soviets said about themselves, too. But if any of the common people disagree, they had no recourse, neither here nor there.

Still trying to blame us for their woes, are you?
I don't know what you're getting at, since I'm more vocal
than most here in criticizing our overseas meddling.
So why point out the obvious to me of all people?

I'm saying that we're responsible for our own actions. We did send troops to intervene in their Civil War, and the West has been using various means to try to get them to fail. I mean, a lot of people say the Reagan won the Cold War, so that implies that we must have been doing something to cause their downfall.

And yes, I know that you're quite vocal about overseas meddling and that you're anti-war, so I'm not directing anything at you personally.

Of course there are reasons, & more than 4 of them....
Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter, central management, collectivization, & a murderous regime.

Well, again, all regimes are murderous in their own way, including ours. Our nation didn't grow as large as it did because of Manifest Destiny.

I'd wager that if people owned their own farms, they'd have had more incentive to be productive
than having been cogs in a giant machine which spread the fruits of their labors around to others.

Yes, perhaps this is true. Back in college, I did a fair amount of research into their agricultural system for a Soviet geography class I took. One stat that sticks in my mind is that the "peasant plots" (which individuals could use to farm whatever they wanted and sell on the market, apart from their duties to the collective) only comprised less than 10% of the arable land but accounted for a third of the Soviet food supply.

Another problem was not so much that the farms weren't producing, because they were. The main problem was transportation. A large percentage of crops would rot in the warehouses waiting to put on trains that didn't run very well. But this was a problem that went back to Tsarist times, as their railroad and transportation system was way behind the West. I remember one of the first things Andropov did when he came to power was fire the head of the Soviet railroad directorate. (See? They can get fired in the USSR, too.)

Where there's a crime, prosecute.
I'd go further to strongly prohibit crony capitalism.

Prosecute...if you can prove it. That's where the courts and the lawyers come into the picture, and they're another large part of the problem. Sometimes, one might wonder what's going on when people get off on technicalities or such vagaries as "insufficient evidence."

You're not making a case for the claim that it's about being better than someone else.
Why reject the simple explanation of wanting to luxuriate in wealth, comfort, & ease?
Perhaps it's easier to criticize them if you can paint them as somehow despising those below?

I only call it as I see it. The fact that employers are so cheap and aren't willing to pay decent wages should be proof enough that they have a scornful and disdainful attitude towards those below. But then, it's also in the things they say, such as "only the little people pay taxes."

I'm not saying this is true for *all* of them, so please don't get your dander up. I'm not referring to you. But I can't believe that you've never heard of this phenomenon before.

We make some progress....we lose some ground in other areas.
Opinions will vary about the details.
I think things are generally better, but progress requires vigilance.

Relatively speaking, I think the US was at its peak around WW2 up to about the late 60s/early 70s, at which point we started a slow decline to the point we're at now.

You're proposing a scenario in which markets aren't free enuf to allow choice.
This is why I oppose monopolies.

It's not that the markets aren't free enough. It's just that the logical result of free market competition will ultimately lead to one or more businesses losing out and going belly up (or merging with the competition), which will lead to fewer choices and potential monopolies. There's no way to stop that under laissez-faire conditions, without government intervention (such as what Teddy Roosevelt did).

Are you arguing that I do not have choice in the private sector?
Or that government offers me more choice?

Regarding this specific point, I'm arguing that the same arguments used against big government can be just as easily applied against big business. The individual voter or consumer is in the same boat, either way.

This is just specious speculation....the notion that some lousy company will survive because
some consumers make bad choices. That's their problem...& it shouldn't limit my choices.
But were that true, then it's wonderful that I have the liberty to take my business elsewhere.
This is what I advocate....competition & freedom of choice.
It beats trusting a single government source for something.

I don't think it's specious speculation, because I've seen such things happen in the real world.

Another industry which has gone tremendously downhill as a result of deregulation: Airlines with their "fortress hubs." I'll give the EU some credit as they're ahead of us on this one with tougher regulations to prevent abuses by the airlines. Not only that, but the airline recognized by many as the best in the world (Emirates) is government-owned (The Emirates Group - Wikipedia). Our own privately owned airlines can't even rank above the third tier when compared on a global scale.

If someone has $X to spend, then their vote is worth $X.
If I have $10X to spend, then my vote certainly should be 10 times greater.

Then under your system, we wouldn't really have a democracy or freedom anymore. It would be taking a giant step backwards towards feudalism. Human rights would only go the highest bidder.

It seems you oppose my having power over how I spend my own money
because I might have more than someone else. But you'd give all power
to government, where my vote matters not one whit. Pi$$ on that!

It has less to do with money than with political power. I don't care how you spend your money, but human rights still must take precedence. Human beings have rights, and they can't be left out in the cold. They need protection and a powerful friend on their side to look out for them against all the sharks, shysters, and skinflints out there. They can't get it from business (who only serve the wealthy), and they can't get it from God (who probably doesn't exist). Where else can they turn?

Vulcans are the party poopers of the galaxy.
I've no desire to emulate their repressed rage, lapses into violence, rigidity & conformity.

I'll bet you rooted for the Borg...so orderly & efficient.

No, not really, but I would marry Seven of Nine if she would have me.

To propose the elimination of the corporate form of ownership would be economically devastating
to the country because raising of capital for aggregating effort would become impossible for
industries like auto making, airlines, pharmaceuticals, etc, etc.

Speculation. We've never tried it before.

Corporations are just one form of ownership, & there's nothing inherently worse about it than
sole proprietorships, partnerships, or LLCs. "Corporation" is just the left's boogeyman.

It's worse because it's bigger. Just like you say bigger government is worse.

I would also point out that the USSR was really nothing more than a giant corporation. I was told that by my professor, an expert in Soviet economics (but before you say he was a "lefty," I will say that he was definitely a free-market conservative who adored Ronald Reagan).

To reduce private sector power would mean an increase in governmental power over
companies & citizens. What I propose is overall less governmental power over us,
but better quality regulation where the benefits outweigh the costs.

The only real private sector power is in voting and political activism.

Who was deceiving whom?
Nah....it's about a majority deciding which minority should die for the benefit of
the majority. Tis not deception, but rather the seizing of power over others,
appropriating their life & liberty without compensation other than the bare minimum.

Since when does the electorate get to vote on whether we go to war? The public is induced to support war when the government declares that there is an "enemy" out there, and the media pull out all the stops to make sure that the public is "informed" of this. Wars are decided by politicians in conjunction with the corporations who make money from it. What the "little people" want is of no importance.

The "little people" get none of the spoils from it and do not benefit one iota.

In the case of some wars, it really was about protecting the country, eg, WW2.
But lately, both Dems & Pubs have fought wars which didn't need fighting.
They'd force only healthy straight males with low draft lottery numbers to bear the
brunt of the dismemberment & dying, while everyone else stayed home & carped.
That's government's idea of "choice" for you.

Strictly speaking, we probably could have avoided WW2 if we wanted to (and many Americans wanted to). We could have stayed neutral and be left alone, as long as we didn't oppose or interfere with the Axis expansionism. Of course, we had other reasons for taking the stance that we did, mainly moral and humanitarian reasons. FDR was a good man. But if our focus was solely on our own national protection, then we could have gone in a much different (and more peaceful) direction.

Even our policy of containment during the Cold War was hardly a done deal, and took a great deal of effort, political persuasion, and propaganda to get a reluctant populace behind it. This was decades before the hippies and peaceniks hit the scene.

However, some people theorize that all of it was for the benefit of private sector business, so if they're the ones benefiting from it, then they're the ones to blame for it, not the majority.
 
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