Sabour
Well-Known Member
You can start watching from 4:50 if you want
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcFIQgdFXEY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zs6z6E_Oik
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Is Quran copied from Jewish Bible/Torah? : Quran did not copy from Jewish Bible/Torah
- Thread starter paarsurrey
- Start date
You can start watching from 4:50 if you want
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcFIQgdFXEY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zs6z6E_Oik
outhouse
Atheistically
That is not how it works.
You make a statement and you back it up with a credible source, and a short paragraph, making your case.
You bring something credible before you speak!
I understand you have no historical religious knowledge, I mean how could you? Your book has no historicity at all! when it comes to the abrahamic deity your religion Plagiarized.
All biased words, and no credibility, just opinion.
That is not how historical questions are answered.
outhouse
Atheistically
Shad
Veteran Member
Natron is used in mummification which is a salt. So finding salt in a mummy is not special nor does it suggest the Quran is right. Considering natron was used in the mummification process in general you are jumping to conclusions. No need for Youtube, take any Egyptology course which will clearly state this fact along with the process of mummification. You could also take Archeology courses on Syria/Palestine in which the Exodus has been dismissed as fiction as well as Moses In fact using Youtube as your evidence is probably why you think this is evidence rather than coincidence which you spin into an argument you think is valid. Maurice Bucaille was wrong, he is not an Egyptology nor an Archaeologist which makes your argument a fallacy, appeal to non-authorities. B/A in Archaeology from Simon Fraser University. Graduate Ph.D Program from SFU.
Last edited:
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
@ outhouse
Every morning one sees or reads news in many a newspapers.
The topics and the characters are the same in the newspapers; yet nobody says one newspaper has copied/plagiarizes/adapted from another.
Do one ever says that ?
Regards
Every morning one sees or reads news in many a newspapers.
The topics and the characters are the same in the newspapers; yet nobody says one newspaper has copied/plagiarizes/adapted from another.
Do one ever says that ?
Regards
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Is Quran copied from Jewish Bible/Torah? : Quran did not copy from Jewish Bible/Torah
I have so far quoted following thirteen short chapters from Quran in this thread:
103. Al-`Asr
104. Al-Humazah
105. Al-Fil
106. Al-Quraish
107. Al-Ma`un
108. Al-Kauthar
109. Al-Kafirun
110. Al-Nasr
111. Al-Lahab
112. Al-Ikhlas
113. Al-Falaq
114. Al-Nas
1. Al-Fatihah
Our Jewish (or non-Jewish) friends have not been able to quote or reference places of Torah where any of the verses of these thirteen Quranic chapters have been copied/plagiarized/adapted from.
We can therefore conclude with 100% certainty that 0% of verses of these chapters of Quran have been copied/plagiarized/adapted from Torah.
Quran is, therefore, the Word Revealed from G-d and authored by Him and is original.
Regards
I have so far quoted following thirteen short chapters from Quran in this thread:
103. Al-`Asr
104. Al-Humazah
105. Al-Fil
106. Al-Quraish
107. Al-Ma`un
108. Al-Kauthar
109. Al-Kafirun
110. Al-Nasr
111. Al-Lahab
112. Al-Ikhlas
113. Al-Falaq
114. Al-Nas
1. Al-Fatihah
Our Jewish (or non-Jewish) friends have not been able to quote or reference places of Torah where any of the verses of these thirteen Quranic chapters have been copied/plagiarized/adapted from.
We can therefore conclude with 100% certainty that 0% of verses of these chapters of Quran have been copied/plagiarized/adapted from Torah.
Quran is, therefore, the Word Revealed from G-d and authored by Him and is original.
Regards
Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
How many chapters are there in the Quran?
Sabour
Well-Known Member
Have you examined the "mummy" before speaking? Or you think you don't need to do that because of your degree ?
outhouse
Atheistically
There is not an ounce of credibility in your mummy
Shad
Veteran Member
No need to. The process of mummification is well documented and has been for centuries. Also the process of peer-reviews does not require me to look at the body itself rather just look at the data provided. Your provided data from a non-expert contradicts established findings by the overwhelming majority of experts. So it easy for me to conclude that your source was wrong due to his own ignorance of mummification along with past and present data ofRamesses II available. He is the Pharaoh linked to the Exodus.
The use of Natron by the Ancient Egyptians in Mummifcation, Alfred Lucas
Diodorus Siculys Book 1: A commentary Anne Burton, page 265
The Scientfific Study of Mummies, Arthur C Aufdefheide, page 45
Egyptian Mummies, Barbara Adams, page 55
Archaeominerology. George Robert Rapp, page 239
Death, Rituals and Belief: The Rehtoric of Funerary Rites Douglas Davies, page 94
Journey Through the Afterlife: Ancient Egyptian Book of Dead, John Taylor, page 85
The life of Ramesse II is also one of the most documented mummies in Egyptology. We know how he died, it wasn't due to drowning. He died at the age of 90, crippled by arthritis and could only walk with aid of a cane.
Pharaoh Triumphant: The Life and Times of Ramaesses II, Kenneth Kitchen
Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt, Margaret Bunson
Ramesses II, T.G.H James
Ramesses I: Pharaoh of the New Kingdom, Susanna Thomas
In Bucaille's book he writes about Merneptah not Ramesses II. However the video you linked shows pictures of Ramesses II. So the creator of your video didn't even know enough that they had the wrong Pharaoh. So already he is a minority as Merneptah is not the person linked with the Exodus. Merneptah ruled post Exodus as the Merneptah Steele is the first inscription talking about the Israelites in Canaan as a people. With the Steele the inscription depicts a military campaign into Canaan and the a victory over the Israelites. So already there were a people identified as Israelites in Canaan with no links to previous or mention of previous Hebrew slaves which the Egyptian would know if in fact the Exodus happened, which it did not. Merneptah ruled for 10 years yet the Exodus cover a period of 40 years. So the Exodus could not have happened during his reign if he fought the same slaves of the Exodus.
Biblical Archaeology, John H. Sailhammer, page 60
Encyclopedic Dictionary of Archaeology, Barbara Ann Kipfer, page 347
What Did the Biblical Writers Know and when Did They know it? What Archaeology Can Tell Us about the Reality of Ancient Israel, William G. Dever (Read the whole book)
Recent Archaeological Discoveries and Biblical Research, ibn
The Quest for Historical Israeli: Debating Archaeology and the History of Early Israel, Israeli Finkelstein and Amihai Mazar
Ethnicity and Identify in Ancient Israel, Kenton Sparks
There is also the conflict of interest with Bucaille. He was the personal physician King Faisal of Saudi Arabia and Anwar Sadat. This position is the only reason he was granted access to the mummy as he is a non-expert. His work was financed by both parties as was his book. Him and his work is not even considered in the sphere of Egyptology or archaeology but rather as religious apologetic. As my sources above lay out his work is only his opinion, that of a non-expert, and is not even considered by experts in their own work. Bucaille has no creditability in any field outside his own as a medical doctor. He is not a forensic Archaeologist, Egyptology, he doesn't even had 1 credit in any related field.
I think I have made my case and shown yours to be confirmation bias in favour of your religion. Of course you are free to believe what you want. However it is an unsupported hypothesis dismissed within the field itself and by experts in the field. Yes a degree does granted me the right to review work within my field of expertise and related fields, it is called peer-review. As I said before his own ignorance of mummification caused him to reach the wrong conclusion as does his conflict of interest during a period of Pan-Arabism which both Faisal and Sadat were leading figures of.
Biblical Archaeology, John H. Sailhammer, page 60
Encyclopedic Dictionary of Archaeology, Barbara Ann Kipfer, page 347
What Did the Biblical Writers Know and when Did They know it? What Archaeology Can Tell Us about the Reality of Ancient Israel, William G. Dever (Read the whole book)
Recent Archaeological Discoveries and Biblical Research, ibn
The Quest for Historical Israeli: Debating Archaeology and the History of Early Israel, Israeli Finkelstein and Amihai Mazar
Ethnicity and Identify in Ancient Israel, Kenton Sparks
There is also the conflict of interest with Bucaille. He was the personal physician King Faisal of Saudi Arabia and Anwar Sadat. This position is the only reason he was granted access to the mummy as he is a non-expert. His work was financed by both parties as was his book. Him and his work is not even considered in the sphere of Egyptology or archaeology but rather as religious apologetic. As my sources above lay out his work is only his opinion, that of a non-expert, and is not even considered by experts in their own work. Bucaille has no creditability in any field outside his own as a medical doctor. He is not a forensic Archaeologist, Egyptology, he doesn't even had 1 credit in any related field.
I think I have made my case and shown yours to be confirmation bias in favour of your religion. Of course you are free to believe what you want. However it is an unsupported hypothesis dismissed within the field itself and by experts in the field. Yes a degree does granted me the right to review work within my field of expertise and related fields, it is called peer-review. As I said before his own ignorance of mummification caused him to reach the wrong conclusion as does his conflict of interest during a period of Pan-Arabism which both Faisal and Sadat were leading figures of.
Last edited:
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Is Quran copied from Jewish Bible/Torah? : Quran did not copy from Jewish Bible/Torah
I give below a Chapter from Quran:
The Holy Quran : Chapter 102: Al-Takathur
[102:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[102:2] Mutual rivalry in seeking worldly increase diverts you from God
[102:3] Till you reach the graves.
[102:4] Nay! you will soon come to know.
[102:5] Nay again! you will soon come to know.
[102:6] Nay! if you only knew with certain knowledge,
[102:7] You will surely see Hell in this very life.
[102:8] Aye, you will surely see it with the eye of certainty.
[102:9] Then, on that day you shall be called to account about the worldly favours.
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
Please prove that this chapter has been copied/plagiarized/adapted from Jewish Bible/Torah or any other religious scripture in the world.
Can one, please?
If one cannot; then one testifies that Quran has not been copied/plagiarized/adapted from Jewish Bible/Torah or from any other book existing in the world.
Quran is original and authored by God; as it claims.
Regards
I give below a Chapter from Quran:
The Holy Quran : Chapter 102: Al-Takathur
[102:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[102:2] Mutual rivalry in seeking worldly increase diverts you from God
[102:3] Till you reach the graves.
[102:4] Nay! you will soon come to know.
[102:5] Nay again! you will soon come to know.
[102:6] Nay! if you only knew with certain knowledge,
[102:7] You will surely see Hell in this very life.
[102:8] Aye, you will surely see it with the eye of certainty.
[102:9] Then, on that day you shall be called to account about the worldly favours.
The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online
Please prove that this chapter has been copied/plagiarized/adapted from Jewish Bible/Torah or any other religious scripture in the world.
Can one, please?
If one cannot; then one testifies that Quran has not been copied/plagiarized/adapted from Jewish Bible/Torah or from any other book existing in the world.
Quran is original and authored by God; as it claims.
Regards
Shad
Veteran Member
The Quran has stories which are found in the Torah. Some parts are adaptions, some are not. There are also new stories not found in older texts. So one can suggest that parts are taken from previous sources but not the whole Quran. After all there are parts which are directly linked to the life of Muhammad which can not be from early sources.
Also your conclusion isa negative proof fallacy. You can take the stance that the Quran was not a copy in all aspects. The conclusion that is from God is the where your logic breaks down.
Also your conclusion isa negative proof fallacy. You can take the stance that the Quran was not a copy in all aspects. The conclusion that is from God is the where your logic breaks down.
outhouse
Atheistically
There is no logic being used here.
The dude is proselytizing his faith.
he believes some dude a few hundred years ago was a real prophet
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
outhouse
Atheistically
Shad
Veteran Member
Well of course he does, he is a Muslim. I am not sure why you expect anything different. For the sake of discussion one side must put aside their religious bias in order to extend the olive branch. Otherwise any discussion grinds to a halt as different parties firmly entrench in their belief systems.
Also my comment was in reference to his conclusion within his argument within the quotes not his belief itself.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Muhammad got revelation of Quran directly from G-d; Moses also got revelation from G-d;both having the same source; hence the similarities.
Regards
gnostic
The Lost One
paarsurrey said:
A far more simpler explanation is that Jews have been living in Mecca and Medina for generations, and Christians have been travelling and preaching in and out of the Arabian peninsula for centuries.
The people of Mecca and Medina weren't cities living in isolation, so many of the better known biblical stories were known to them.
And the people didn't need to read to know the stories, because Christian missionaries often preach before listeners.
Not everyone could read and write.
To say that Muhammad didn't know stories of Adam, Abraham, David and Jesus, is a bit naive or ignorant.