Is Quran copied from Jewish Bible/Torah? : Quran did not copy from Jewish Bible/Torah

[paarsurrey]

Is Quran copied from Jewish Bible/Torah? : Quran did not copy from Jewish Bible/Torah

The Holy Quran : Chapter 76: Al-Dahr [1]

[76:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[76:2] There has certainly come upon man a period of time when he was not a thing spoken of.
[76:3] We have created man from a mingled sperm-drop that We might try him; so We made him hearing, seeing.
[76:4] We have shown him the Way, whether he be grateful or ungrateful.
[76:5] Verily, We have prepared for the disbelievers chains and iron-collars and a blazing Fire.
[76:6] But the virtuous drink of a cup, tempered with camphor —
[76:7] A spring wherefrom the servants of Allah drink. They make it gush forth — a forceful gushing forth.
[76:8] They fulfil their vow, and fear a day the evil of which is widespread.
[76:9] And they feed, for love of Him, the poor, the orphan, and the prisoner,
[76:10] Saying, ‘We feed you for Allah’s pleasure only. We desire no reward nor thanks from you.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Please prove that these verses have been copied/plagiarized/adapted from Jewish Bible/Torah or any other religious revealed scripture in the world by quoting from that book, the reference and providing the link.

Quran is authored by G-d, it is the reality.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

34:10-11
chain mail did not exist around 1000 BCE.

18:96-97
This is a repeat of a myth about Alexander the Great which is, well, a myth.

I give the verses of Quran from the first place mentioned in your post:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 34: Al-Saba'

[34:11] And certainly, We bestowed grace upon David from Ourselves: ‘O ye mountains, repeat the praises of Allah with him, and O birds, ye also.’ And We made the iron soft for him,
[34:12] Saying, ‘Make thou full-length coats of mail, and make the rings of a proper measure. And do righteous deeds, surely I see all that you do.’
[34:13] And to Solomon We subjected the wind; its morning course was a month’s journey, and its evening course was a month’s journey too. And We caused a fount of molten copper to flow for him. And of the Jinn were some who worked under him, by the command of his Lord. And We had told them that if any of them turned away from Our command, We would make him taste the punishment of burning fire.
[34:14] They made for him what he desired; palaces and statues, and basins like reservoirs, and large cooking vessels fixed in their places: ‘Work ye, O House of David gratefully;’ but few of My servants are grateful.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Quran does not mention the year 1000 BCE in the above verses?
Does it? Please

Regards

 

[Flankerl]

Quran does not mention the year 1000 BCE in the above verses?

Born c. 1040 BC
Bethlehem, Judah, Israel

Died c. 970 BC
Jerusalem, Judah, Israel

 

[gnostic]

I give the verses of Quran from the first place mentioned in your post:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 34: Al-Saba'

[34:11] And certainly, We bestowed grace upon David from Ourselves: ‘O ye mountains, repeat the praises of Allah with him, and O birds, ye also.’ And We made the iron soft for him,
[34:12] Saying, ‘Make thou full-length coats of mail, and make the rings of a proper measure. And do righteous deeds, surely I see all that you do.’
[34:13] And to Solomon We subjected the wind; its morning course was a month’s journey, and its evening course was a month’s journey too. And We caused a fount of molten copper to flow for him. And of the Jinn were some who worked under him, by the command of his Lord. And We had told them that if any of them turned away from Our command, We would make him taste the punishment of burning fire.
[34:14] They made for him what he desired; palaces and statues, and basins like reservoirs, and large cooking vessels fixed in their places: ‘Work ye, O House of David gratefully;’ but few of My servants are grateful.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Quran does not mention the year 1000 BCE in the above verses?
Does it? Please

Of course, there is no 1000 BCE in the Qur'an, because Qur'an is a worthless book, with no historical basis about the times when Israel and Judah were kingdoms.

And as far as I can remember, the Qur'an don't put age of anyone, so it is not to put any time frame to when David and Solomon had lived. Again, the Qur'an is shown to be useless.

But by calculating backward the reigns of all the kings of Judah from the known date of the Fall of Jerusalem (to the Neo-Babylonians) - 587 or 586 BCE, it is possible to estimate the reign of David and Solomon, using 2 Samuel, 1 Kings and 2 Kings.

You can't use the Qur'an because it doesn't mentioned much of the other kings, let alone mention how long each king had rule for. So the Qur'an is a useless book in term of genealogy or annal.

As Flankel say, it had give approximate dates to David's birth and death.

Born c. 1040 BC
Bethlehem, Judah, Israel

Died c. 970 BC
Jerusalem, Judah, Israel

And the FACT is, iron chain mail was not invented yet.

The earliest archaeological and historical evidences to chain mail being used, by the Celts or Gauls, about 400 BCE. It was they who introduced mail armor to the Romans (as well as to the Greeks), which the Roman had adopted by 2nd century BCE. The Romans called it, lorica hamata.

The Qur'an is incorrect to say that coat of armor were made of iron rings. Although David and Solomon were living in the early Iron Age, most metal armors were still made out of bronze; more common were leather corslet. The Qur'an had written something that didn't exist in David's time, so Qur'an 34:12 is an anachronism.

If any iron armor were made during the 1st half of 1st millennium BCE, often they were made as breastplate, because chain mail weren't invented yet. And iron breastplate was easier to make than chain mail. Chain mail is time consuming to make and expensive.

You are clearly arguing from the point of ignorance. You refused to look at the Bible, as other possible sources of information. Sure, you don't have to believe in the bible; no one is asking you believe in the bible. Heck, I don't believe in the bible myself or the Qur'an for that matter, but at the very least, I take the time to read it, and tried to understand the background behind the scriptures. And clearly you know nothing about ancient history in Europe (about the Greeks, Romans and Celts), so what is the point of participating in things that you know bl@@dy nothing about?

ps, you do know what anachronism mean, don't you? If you don't know what it mean, look it up in Wikipedia. The last few months you have been using wikipedia a lot, so you might as well as read up on about it.

ps, I would also suggest that you look up mail (armor) too.

 

[paarsurrey]

I quote from Wikipedia:

Iron Age/Israelite period[edit]

The Iron Age in the Levant begins in about 1200 BCE when iron tools came into use. It is also known as the Israelite period. The Israelite period is characterized by large numbers of urban dwellings and a new local culture. The rich and diverse archaeological findings attest to strong international links and trade relations. The abundance of writings found indicate a broad distribution of knowledge among common people of ancient Israel and not just scribes, a unique phenomenon in the ancient world.

In this period both the archaeological evidence and the narrative evidence from the Bible become richer and much writing has attempted to make links between them. A chronology includes:

• Iron Age I (IA I) 1200-1000 BCE
• Iron Age IIA (IA IIA) 1000-925 BCE
• Iron Age IIB-C (IA IIB-C) 925-586 BCE
• Iron Age III 586-539 BCE (Neo-Babylonian period)

The traditional view, personified in such archaeologists as Albright and Wright, faithfully accepted the biblical events as history, but has since been questioned by "Biblical minimalists" such as Niels Peter Lemche, Thomas L. Thompson and Philip R. Davies.

Israel Finkelstein[5] suggests that the empire of David and Solomon(United Monarchy) never existed and Judah was not in a position to support an extended state until the start of the 8th century.

Finklestein accepts the existence of King David and Solomon but doubts their chronology, significance and influence as described in the Bible.[6] Without claiming that everything in the Bible is historically accurate, some non-supernatural story elements appear to correspond with physical artifacts and other archaeological findings. Inscriptions traced to non-Hebrew cultural origin, such as the Tel Dan Stele and the Mesha Stele.

Archaeology of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quran does not claim to be a text book of history.

Iron did exist in the region in 1000 BCE.

There is no consensus among the Historians and the Archaeologists on chronology of events happened in the region.

Is there a conses on the chronology of events? Please

Regards

 

[Al-Fatihah]

This is just silly.

If a man is a leader of people, do not the spoils of war get attributed to the leader? Is that not how human history has worked for, well, forever? It has nothing to do with one man being able to slay 5 men on his own either, although that's easily debunked too...

About 3 years ago there was a court case involving a woman in the courthouse where I work. At her sentencing, she felt that she had been unjustly convicted and went absolutely nuts. She was 5'3 and about 100 pounds and single-handedly fought off 4 male police officers who tackled her. She threw one of them nearly 6 feet into a partition. It took another 2 officers coming into the room in order to subdue a single woman. So there's that. (I'll find you dozens of accounts if you need me to)

You say that's its absurd for one man to be able to use force in order to conquer a nation, yet even 1st graders know about the rise and fall of Napoleon's Europe or the brief section of history that we like to call World War II. People follow a person based on hope in their words, and then are suddenly culturally invested in a war of aggression against anyone that their leader deems as subordinate. Do you attribute the actions of the nations on just the individuals, or does the blame fall on the leaders who lead them to war and their commanders and generals and confidants?

What about the countries that were invaded and the people that were killed? Are they guilty for not accepting the rule of the aggressor, or are they considered the victims?

The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan - who started those? It certainly wasn't me. It wasn't anyone that I know. It was a leader and his company of generals, was it not? Aren't the Arabs the victims here, or should we get onto them for not conforming the ultimate truth of american stewardship?

Mohammed, during the early spread of Islam, and his generals, were aggressively pursuing land that they were either told to claim by Allah or they were simply spreading their empire by invading surrounding lands and having the audacity to "defend" themselves against people who fought back...

how dare they oppose Mohammed and Islam. It's the one true path. Anyone who disagrees with that should be attacked, ya know, in defense of oppressing Mohammed and Allah

Response: In other words, you have no firsthand evidence of one man outwrestling just 5 people by force, thus debunking your absurd claim that Muhammad started became a ruler of a nation by using force. Thanks for the assistance.

 

[Al-Fatihah]

I see your MO. Intead of debating you just want to claim people are wrong without having to ever support your belief. Try some evidence, just saying "your wrong" isn't helping your case.

Response: Yet the hypocrisy in your own statement by claiming that I claim things are wrong with no evidence, yet such a statement was made with no evidence, exposes you and makes my point.

 

[gnostic]

The Iron Age in the Levant begins in about 1200 BCE when iron tools came into use. It is also known as the Israelite period.

paarsurrey, paarsurrey, paarsurrey

Just because the Iron Age had been around that long, doesn't mean that chain mails were invented invented in 1200 BCE.

Iron did exist in the region in 1000 BCE.

In fact iron have been used as far back as 3200 BCE in Egypt, as precious metals, and they were able to use it to create ornaments, like beads. What they didn't know how to do was make iron tools out of iron. The iron technology didn't exist till 1200 BCE.

No one is denying the Iron Age have been around in Egypt and the Near East since 1200 BCE, it doesn't mean they knew how to make mail rings for armours.

Mail armours originated in Central and Eastern Europe, in 400 BCE, and introduced to Rome in 3rd century by Gauls who sacked Rome in 300 BCE, but Rome didn't adopted mail as armor till 2nd century BCE, but the lorica hamata weren't standard issue in Roman military till Gaius Marius reformed the Roman army about 90 BCE.

And although the Gauls or Celts (as they were called by the Greeks, thus Celtae), not all Gaullish warriors, only the rich (like nobles or chieftains) wore them.

Don't just read the Iron Age, read when and where mail armor come from.

Before the invention of mail armor, the most popular forms were the breastplates and scale armor which have been around centuries. Scale armor were made out small metal plates (it can be bronze or iron) and sewed into leather or clothing. They were called by lorica squamata by the Romans.

But iron armor weren't common in 10 century BCE.

 

[McBell]

Response: In other words, you have no firsthand evidence of one man outwrestling just 5 people by force, thus debunking your absurd claim that Muhammad started became a ruler of a nation by using force. Thanks for the assistance.

huh?
Are you seriously clinging to this wishful thinking?

I do have first hand experience of one person out fighting five persons bigger than the one person.
She straight opened a can of whoop *** on them.

What the hell does that have to do with Muhammed?

Or is your logic that I have just debunked your claim of Jonathans claim being debunked?

If so, where does that leave you?

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey, paarsurrey, paarsurrey

Just because the Iron Age had been around that long, doesn't mean that chain mails were invented invented in 1200 BCE.



In fact iron have been used as far back as 3200 BCE in Egypt, as precious metals, and they were able to use it to create ornaments, like beads. What they didn't know how to do was make iron tools out of iron. The iron technology didn't exist till 1200 BCE.

No one is denying the Iron Age have been around in Egypt and the Near East since 1200 BCE, it doesn't mean they knew how to make mail rings for armours.

Mail armours originated in Central and Eastern Europe, in 400 BCE, and introduced to Rome in 3rd century by Gauls who sacked Rome in 300 BCE, but Rome didn't adopted mail as armor till 2nd century BCE, but the lorica hamata weren't standard issue in Roman military till Gaius Marius reformed the Roman army about 90 BCE.

And although the Gauls or Celts (as they were called by the Greeks, thus Celtae), not all Gaullish warriors, only the rich (like nobles or chieftains) wore them.

Don't just read the Iron Age, read when and where mail armor come from.

Before the invention of mail armor, the most popular forms were the breastplates and scale armor which have been around centuries. Scale armor were made out small metal plates (it can be bronze or iron) and sewed into leather or clothing. They were called by lorica squamata by the Romans.

But iron armor weren't common in 10 century BCE.

I also mentioned following points in the post:

has since been questioned by "Biblical minimalists" such as Niels Peter Lemche, Thomas L. Thompson and Philip R. Davies.

Israel Finkelstein[5] suggests that the empire of David and Solomon(United Monarchy) never existed and Judah was not in a position to support an extended state until the start of the 8th century.

Finklestein accepts the existence of King David and Solomon but doubts their chronology, significance and influence as described in the Bible.

Your following sentence also is to be noticed:

But iron armor weren't common in 10 century BCE.

You are not certain about it.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Is Quran copied from Jewish Bible/Torah? : Quran did not copy from Jewish Bible/Torah

The Holy Quran : Chapter 76: Al-Dahr [2]

[76:11] ‘Verily, we fear from our Lord a frowning and distressful day.’
[76:12] So Allah will save them from the evil of that day, and will grant them cheerfulness and happiness.
[76:13] And He will reward them, for their steadfastness, with a Garden and a raiment ofsilk,
[76:14] Reclining therein upon couches, they will find there neither excessive heat nor excessive cold.
[76:15] And its shades will be close over them, and its clustered fruits will be brought within easy reach.
[76:16] And vessels of silver will be passed round among them, and also goblets of glass,
[76:17] Bright as glass but made of silver, which they will measure according to their ownmeasure.
[76:18] And therein will they be given to drink a cup tempered with ginger,
[76:19] From a spring therein named Salsabil.
[76:20] And there will wait upon them youths who will not age. When thou seest them, thou thinkest them to be pearls scattered about.

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Please prove that these verses have been copied/plagiarized/adapted from Jewish Bible/Torah or any other religious revealed scripture in the world by quoting from that book, the reference and providing the link.

Quran is authored by G-d, it is the reality.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

34:10-11
chain mail did not exist around 1000 BCE.

18:96-97
This is a repeat of a myth about Alexander the Great which is, well, a myth.

Now we take the second objection. I give the verses 18:96-97 with the verses in the context:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 18: Al-Kahf

[18:91] Until, when he reached the rising of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had made no shelter against it.
[18:92] Thus indeed it was. Verily, We encompassed with Our knowledge all that was with him.
[18:93] Then he followed another way
[18:94] Until, when he reached the place between the two mountains, he found beneath them a people who would scarcely understand a word.
[18:95] They said, ‘O Dhu’l Qarnain, verily, Gog and Magog are creating disorder in the earth; shall we then pay thee tribute on condition that thou set up a barrier between us and them?’
[18:96] He replied, ‘The power with which my Lord has endowed me about this is better, but you may help me with physical strength; I will set up between you and them a rampart.
[18:97] ‘Bring me blocks of iron.’ They did so till, when he had levelled up the space between the two mountain sides, he said, ‘Now blow with your bellows.’ They blew till, when he had made it red as fire, he said, ‘Bring me molten copper that I may pour it thereon.’
[18:98] So they (Gog and Magog) were not able to scale it, nor were they able to dig through it.
[18:99] Thereupon he said, ‘This is a mercy from my Lord. But when the promise of my Lord shall come to pass, He will break it into pieces. And the promise of my Lord is certainlytrue.’
[18:100] And on that day We shall leave some of them to surge against others, and the trumpet will be blown. Then shall We gather them all together.
[18:101] And on that day We shall present Hell, face to face, to the disbelievers —

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

The verses do not mention about Alexander the Great.

Do they?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Born c. 1040 BC
Bethlehem, Judah, Israel

Died c. 970 BC
Jerusalem, Judah, Israel

Archaeologist don't have consensus about the time frame about David.

Do they have? Please

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Thanks for even mentioning this - I've posted quite a bit, and since even one pokes a hole in the concept of absolute perfection, the argument is actually already over.
There are dozens of scholarly translations. Maybe 2 of them try and alter the fact that it says "chain mail". Again, this is evidence of the time period and culture influencing what is written. It's historically factually inaccurate.

There are plenty of others. There's a section where it talks about how to divide property. If you actually pay attention to it mathematically, what is divided is more than the whole... That would be a flaw on a math test.

The other cultural myths, like Alexander the Great which was mentioned, also show that it was just adapting stuff that it had heard about as coming from the mouth of god... A common go-to response is saying that it was meant as poetry. It's a common tactic to avoid what is right in front of them. Fundamental Christians do the same.

There are plenty of others.

Do these points came to your mind naturally while you were reading Quran intently from cover to cover or you have taken then from some site opposing Quran? Please

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Is it possible for a single Muslim to at least admit that the faith has made some serious mistakes throughout the years?

The truthful religion contains no mistakes; some people might have not understood the verses correctly. The mistake is of understanding not of the verses.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Why didn't god, in his almighty power, just zap some literacy into his head? I mean, if he was going to bother talking to him and flying him around to heaven and stuff...why not?

If we are going to stretch our view of existence to accept magic flying men, then why is that not a logical question?

You can't seem to understand the matter realistically.

No such person is mentioned in Quran.
If you think it is mentioned in Quran then please quote from it.

Regards

 

[Al-Fatihah]

huh?
Are you seriously clinging to this wishful thinking?

I do have first hand experience of one person out fighting five persons bigger than the one person.
She straight opened a can of whoop *** on them.

What the hell does that have to do with Muhammed?

Or is your logic that I have just debunked your claim of Jonathans claim being debunked?

If so, where does that leave you?

Response: Proof of firsthand evidence is not simply saying you have it. If that was the case then according to your own logic, you don't have any because "I say so". Thus your logic is invalid and fails as firsthand evidence of that you can out wrestle 5 people by yourself, thus debunking the silly notion that Muhammad used force to get people to follow him and conquer an entire nation.

 

[gnostic]

But iron armor weren't common in 10 century BCE.

You are not certain about it.

I was referring to iron armor in general and there are many types of armor, but iron weren't commonly used for armor and weapon in 10th century BCE. Bronze was the main materials for armor, helmet and shield. They have not perfect iron working.

I have not changed my mind, paarsurrey. Chain mail didn't exist in the 10th century BCE, the supposed time of David and Solomon.

Let give you one example, like a weapon, the sword.

Although Iron Age began 1200 BCE, but bronze sword continued to be used to 8th century BCE, because iron sword weren't easy to make during that time (1200 - 800 BCE). And even in the 8th century BCE, iron swords weren't of great quality. Only after some times, knowledge of making iron sword improved.

It is the same with armor. It took time to develop better armor.

The problem with you, you think just because it say Iron Age, all types of iron weapon and armor were right then and there, in 1200 BCE. They didn't stop making bronze armor and weapon, because bronze continued to be used as late as the 4th century. The world don't work that way.

Before the iron chain mail were invented around 4th century BCE, the most common types of iron armor were breastplate or scale armor, in both Europe and Asia.

And the Qur'an is still wrong. David and Solomon didn't have coat of mail, because the author didn't know chain mail were never made till the 4th century BCE.

You seemed to like using wikipedia. You quote articles from wikipeida pages, all the time.

Why haven't you read their page on mail (armor) yet?

Here is the link to wiki's mail armor.

I don't need to read wiki, because I have books on ancient warfare, armors and weaponry.

 

[paarsurrey]

I was referring to iron armor in general and there are many types of armor, but iron weren't commonly used for armor and weapon in 10th century BCE. Bronze was the main materials for armor, helmet and shield. They have not perfect iron working.

I have not changed my mind, paarsurrey. Chain mail didn't exist in the 10th century BCE, the supposed time of David and Solomon.

Let give you one example, like a weapon, the sword.

Although Iron Age began 1200 BCE, but bronze sword continued to be used to 8th century BCE, because iron sword weren't easy to make during that time (1200 - 800 BCE). And even in the 8th century BCE, iron swords weren't of great quality. Only after some times, knowledge of making iron sword improved.

It is the same with armor. It took time to develop better armor.

The problem with you, you think just because it say Iron Age, all types of iron weapon and armor were right then and there, in 1200 BCE. They didn't stop making bronze armor and weapon, because bronze continued to be used as late as the 4th century. The world don't work that way.

Before the iron chain mail were invented around 4th century BCE, the most common types of iron armor were breastplate or scale armor, in both Europe and Asia.

And the Qur'an is still wrong. David and Solomon didn't have coat of mail, because the author didn't know chain mail were never made till the 4th century BCE.

You seemed to like using wikipedia. You quote articles from wikipeida pages, all the time.

Why haven't you read their page on mail (armor) yet?

Here is the link to wiki's mail armor.

I don't need to read wiki, because I have books on ancient warfare, armors and weaponry.

10th century BCE, the supposed time of David and Solomon.

As you yourself admit, and rightly, 10th century BCE is only the supposed time of David and Solomon, it is not certain.

Your arguments therefore does not remain valid.

Regards

 

[jonathan180iq]

As you yourself admit, and rightly, 10th century BCE is only the supposed time of David and Solomon, it is not certain.

Your arguments therefore does not remain valid.

Regards

That time frame has support on multiple fronts, including chronology from the three holy books that copied each other's stories.