Is Russia had right to afraid from West agenda? ?

[Debater Slayer]

Yea. Gaddafi was liked.

Not by the thousands who revolted against him, whom he felt the need to resist with military power and brutality. He preferred ruining his country to hold on to power over peacefully submitting to the will of his people.

Gaddafi is one of the rare cases where I think execution was arguably the only viable way to put a stop to the suffering and death he caused.

 

[Revoltingest]

The NATO is not an organization of equal members.
Italy and Germany have a much inferior status than others, being former occupied countries.

It's been a long time.
You've not yet recovered?

So they are military colonies of the US, because they cannot but obey.

And I can prove you in any international court that the NATO imposed Italy anything against her own will.

We must agree to disagree about
Italy & Germany being US colonies.

Otherwise Italy would have never okayed the Libyan disaster.

USA ordered Italy to OK it?

 

[Revoltingest]

Cagey? I don't think I could be any plainer.

Well, I asked for clarity.
We're not there yet.

 

[Stevicus]

How was Russia being antagonized by USA prior
to Russia's invading Ukraine?

Do you need a list of the events of the past century? I could cite a few instances, but regardless, whatever antagonism exists between Russia and the United States was initiated by the US government.

How was this antagonization such an existential
threat that Ukraine had to be invaded & conquered?

All it would have taken was a simple statement by NATO: "We will not allow Ukraine to join NATO." How difficult is that? If they had done that, Ukraine would not be under attack right now.

 

[Nimos]

True, even on RF we have this challenge to respect different beliefs and lifestyles

They should come to RF, here people get the chance to learn to respect different beliefs, not trying to preach to the other, nor to belittle the other's (non) faith. Everything comes down to respect in life. Each human just wants a bit of respect

I heard a few Putin speeches, and he mentioned quite a few times that the West belittled him, not take them serious, no respect and speaking bad about Russia.

Enough was enough Putin might have thought, if the West trashes us for decades, well let us behave that way. Or just let us stop those bad mouthers once and for all. Actions speak louder than words. And Putin has a few black belts, so I am surprised he controlled himself for so long.

Maybe they are already here, Putin, Biden etc. just using aliases

But what you say doesn't make sense, because even if Putin feels that we don't respect him or Russia, which I don't know where you get that from? Things have been pretty calm before he decided to invade Crimea.

Lets assume that he wanted to get back at the West, then surely going nuts in Ukraine is the wrong move. That is basically like me saying that I want to get back at RF, so im going to go troll on another forum

Ukraine is not a huge player in the west in any way, EU and the US would do just fine without them. Not meant in a "looking down on them kind of way", but its not like our economies and security stand and fall with Ukraine. So its a very strange way to get back at the west, if that were true. I don't even know how much the US has to do with Ukraine before all this began, so looked it up.

Ukraine is currently our (the US) 67th largest goods trading partner with $3.7 billion in total (two way) goods trade during 2019. Goods exports totaled $2.4 billion; goods imports totaled $1.3 billion. The U.S. goods trade surplus with Ukraine was $1.1 billion in 2019.

China being number one. In which case China ought to be pissed

So I don't think this argument hold water to be honest. There is a benefit for the west of Ukraine valuing our view of things and choosing to go in our direction, but I think that is standard global politics and is not especially related to Ukraine in particular.

 

[Revoltingest]

Do you need a list of the events of the past century? I could cite a few instances, but regardless, whatever antagonism exists between Russia and the United States was initiated by the US government.

Merely listing events that you believe support your
view won't be convincing. Instead, offer analysis
why those events mean what they do to you.

All it would have taken was a simple statement by NATO: "We will not allow Ukraine to join NATO." How difficult is that? If they had done that, Ukraine would not be under attack right now.

I don't know if that would've done the job.
I'm a fan of diplomatic solutions to hostilities though.
I also like a hands off approach....I'm willing to let
horrible tyrants oppress their populace. Sure, it's
letting evil exist...but I don't trust our leaders' wisdom
to violently fix other countries' problems.

We've a straightforward problem. Russia invaded
a country that wasn't attacking them, & had even
disarmed in order to appease Russia. This isn't
justified by NATO actions in Lybia, USA invading
Iraq, or USA invading Afghanistan. Those events
ended without conquest. Moreover, they even
pointed to the west's being rather incapable of &/or
uninterested in conquest. Putin ordered the invasion
of Ukraine after all those wars ended, & NATO was
cutting defense measures.

 

[Godobeyer]

Vietnam is doubtful but hey Russia was there too,Iraq was a big mistake i agree but Iraq Syria and Libya Iran and N Korea all had/have tyranical leaders,Nato is not "the west" and is defensive not aggressive,Putin hates it because he can't have his own way anymore.

Many Dictatoric regimes protected by West because they allie to West,so West did not touch them .
NATO involved in Libya, that's proof reality it's not defensive ,it's become aggressive too.
Most of West countries are involved in Syria and Iraq wars .almost all NATO was there.

 

[Estro Felino]

Do you need a list of the events of the past century? I could cite a few instances, but regardless, whatever antagonism exists between Russia and the United States was initiated by the US government.
All it would have taken was a simple statement by NATO: "We will not allow Ukraine to join NATO." How difficult is that? If they had done that, Ukraine would not be under attack right now.

What I was telling @Revoltingest .
The hostility towards Russia did not start with Putin.

Russians will elect another Putin. It is a vicious circle.
The more the West antagonizes Russia, the more Putins will be elected by Russians.

 

[England my lionheart]

Many Dictatoric regimes protected by West because they allie to West,so West did not touch them .
NATO involved in Libya, that's proof reality it's not defensive ,it's become aggressive too.
Most of West countries are involved in Syria and Iraq wars .almost all NATO was there.

Hasn't Assad been protected by Russia?,ever heard of proxy wars?,yes Nato have given support against oppressive regimes.

 

[Revoltingest]

What I was telling @Revoltingest .
The hostility towards Russia did not start with Putin.

Russians will elect another Putin. It is a vicious circle.
The more the West antagonizes Russia, the more Putins will be elected by Russians.

We should note that Reagan changed from antagonistic
to friendly towards Russia. This reduced hostilities.
There were diplomatic efforts before & now during the
invasion, yet it continues.
Russia And Ukraine Begin Negotiations
Also useful...
US military seeks communication line with Russia to avoid a miscalculation near Ukraine

 

[Estro Felino]

I'm not seeing rape of young girls and war crimes in your post or persecution,c'mon he was a paedophile tyrant surely.

The NATO sided with a oil producer country that executes gays and atheists.
So the human rights issue is vital.

In my eyes the credibility and coherence of the NATO is very little, because of this doublestandardism.

 

[Revoltingest]

The NATO sided with a oil producer country that executes gays and atheists.
So the human rights issue is vital.

How do you think....
- NATO should respond to the invasion?
- NATO should do in countries oppressing their own people?
- Russia should do?

 

[stvdv]

But what you say doesn't make sense, because even if Putin feels that we don't respect him or Russia, which I don't know where you get that from? Things have been pretty calm before he decided to invade Crimea.

Did you hear Putin speak on this issue?

Ukraine is very important to him, and he explains why. So, it makes sense to me

 

[Revoltingest]

Did you hear Putin speak on this issue?

Ukraine is very important to him, and he explains why. So, it makes sense to me

Link would help.

 

[Estro Felino]

How do you think....
- NATO should respond to the invasion?
- NATO should do in countries oppressing their own people?
- Russia should do?

NATO and Russia should find a solution together.

 

[England my lionheart]

The NATO sided with a oil producer country that executes gays and atheists.
So the human rights issue is vital.

In my eyes the credibility and coherence of the NATO is very little, because of this doublestandardism.

Two wrongs don't make a right,for myself i'd let saudi arabia sink in it's own **** but the people who would sink it are on equal terms and as bad,one day oil won't be part of the deal but i have some areement with you.

 

[Revoltingest]

NATO and Russia should find a solution together.

Since that hasn't happened in the last couple
decades, what would you change in their
negotiations?

 

[England my lionheart]

Did you hear Putin speak on this issue?

Ukraine is very important to him, and he explains why. So, it makes sense to me

Maybe he had a Stalin moment and just wanted to annex countries that don't want to be annexed.

 

[stvdv]

Maybe he had a Stalin moment and just wanted to annex countries that don't want to be annexed.

That is very well possible.

China also has such moments

I hope he has not too many of these Stalin moments...when a pitbull tastes blood once there's no way back

 

[Estro Felino]

It's been a long time.
You've not yet recovered?

We must agree to disagree about
Italy & Germany being US colonies.

USA ordered Italy to OK it?

It is a honor and a privilege to be US territory de facto...if I may use this expression, considering we are the country with most US military bases in Europe.

What I meant is that the notion of war is uncostitutional for us, and the NATO should be more about peacekeeping and less about warfare.