Is Satan capable of good?

[Sgt. Pepper]

God is not absent in the eyes of those with faith.

I had genuine faith in God for forty years, and yet he was a no-show in my life. I'm sorry to say that it took me forty years to finally admit it and be honest about it. I suppose I could say, biblically speaking, that all those years were me wandering lost in the wilderness, except that God never showed up in my life to guide me and protect me. And my promised land ended up being my life now, filled with inner peace, feeling content with my life, and healing emotionally after forty years of mental anguish and depression due to all the abuse and trauma I suffered while growing up. I'm coping better with my PTSD, so it doesn't control my life as much as it used to. I no longer suffer from an eating disorder either. I also discovered Wicca and druidry, both of which have had a profoundly positive impact on my life and mental health. Needless to say, I no longer need or want the Abrahamic God in my life. I believe that I'm better off without this debilitating belief because it served as an emotional crutch for me. I've learned how to stand on my own without it.

 

[Ebionite]

Nope. Look at the verse you quoted.

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But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.​

The holy spirit turned and became an enemy. What else do you have? I still have maybe a little bit of time before sundown.

No, YHWH is associated with war, not his set-apart spirit. Exodus 15:3. Also it makes no sense to associate the wrath of YHWH with his set-apart spirit.

 

[Brian2]

I had genuine faith in God for forty years, and yet he was a no-show in my life. I'm sorry to say that it took me forty years to finally admit it and be honest about it. I suppose I could say, biblically speaking, that all those years were me wandering lost in the wilderness, except that God never showed up in my life to guide me and protect me. And my promised land ended up being my life now, filled with inner peace, feeling content with my life, and healing emotionally after forty years of mental anguish and depression due to all the abuse and trauma I suffered while growing up. I'm coping better with my PTSD, so it doesn't control my life as much as it used to. I no longer suffer from an eating disorder either. I also discovered Wicca and druidry, both of which have had a profoundly positive impact on my life and mental health. Needless to say, I no longer need or want the Abrahamic God in my life. I believe that I'm better off without this debilitating belief because it served as an emotional crutch for me. I've learned how to stand on my own without it.

I'm happy that you are happier now but sad at the same time because you lost your faith in what I see as the truth.
Sometimes I also feel like it is time to throw my faith away, but I hope I don't do that. So far I have always found the times of doubt temporary and that imo God brings me back and hold on to me.
I imagine I could break away with an effort but have decided against that even though I know that having faith does keep me from some things which I would like to do.

 

[Colt]

I had genuine faith in God for forty years, and yet he was a no-show in my life. I'm sorry to say that it took me forty years to finally admit it and be honest about it. I suppose I could say, biblically speaking, that all those years were me wandering lost in the wilderness, except that God never showed up in my life to guide me and protect me. And my promised land ended up being my life now, filled with inner peace, feeling content with my life, and healing emotionally after forty years of mental anguish and depression due to all the abuse and trauma I suffered while growing up. I'm coping better with my PTSD, so it doesn't control my life as much as it used to. I no longer suffer from an eating disorder either. I also discovered Wicca and druidry, both of which have had a profoundly positive impact on my life and mental health. Needless to say, I no longer need or want the Abrahamic God in my life. I believe that I'm better off without this debilitating belief because it served as an emotional crutch for me. I've learned how to stand on my own without it.

“Crutch”, that’s the tell! The defiant self wants to be its own savior. It is good that you finally got honest about that! That “self” tells God what his will should be rather than listen to Gods direction.

But to be fair and frank, why is it that I always “knew” in my heart that the depiction of the Abrahamic God was inaccurate? Why did I intuitively know that the Father revealed in the life of Jesus was a more genuine portrayal? Even then I was a “functional agnostic”, I believed and I KNEW God yet ignored Gods loving guidance because I wanted to do my will!

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I'm happy that you are happier now but sad at the same time because you lost your faith in what I see as the truth.
Sometimes I also feel like it is time to throw my faith away, but I hope I don't do that. So far I have always found the times of doubt temporary and that imo God brings me back and hold on to me.
I imagine I could break away with an effort but have decided against that even though I know that having faith does keep me from some things which I would like to do.

Renouncing my belief in God and disavowing my Christian faith wasn't a decision that I took lightly, but it was one of the best decisions that I have ever made for my mental health. And, while I don't regret my decision, I do wish I had made it years ago. However, I realize that it wouldn't have been possible years ago because I was firmly ingrained in the Christian indoctrination that I had been subjected to my entire life. But I finally came to a breaking point and hit rock bottom before I gradually began to drag myself out of the pit of Christian indoctrination that I was buried in. My husband described it as me going to hell and back because it was such a painful and depressing experience for me. To be honest, I made it through because of him and our children.

 

[Ebionite]

What else do you have?

Evidence of the traditional prejudice of Rabbinical Judaism.

YHWH [is] a man of war: YHWH [is] his name.
Exodus 15:3

YHWH shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.
Isaiah 42:13

For I [will be] unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, [even] I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue [him].
Hosea 5:14

Hosea 5:14-6:6 relates to the Christian doctrine of resurrection on the third day and the repudiation of blood sacrifice.

Mat 9:13 - But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

 

[Ebionite]

sRenouncing my belief in God and disavowing my Christian faith wasn't a decision that I took lightly, but it was one of the best decisions that I have ever made for my mental health.

Christianity is mixture of light and dark a lot like the checkerboard floor of St Paul's cathedral.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

When God judges evil people by killing them that makes God evil

Dead Guy 1: What did you to deserve death?
Dead Guy 2: I ate shrimp for lunch.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

It's because God must remain hidden to a degree, that evil occurs. The consequences if he fully manifests himself when humans are not ready are huge.

I've discussed this before, but really God has been between a rock and a hard place on guiding his creation.

Since many deities require magic food to survive, I have to wonder if someone bulldozed Yahweh’s apple tree.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I suggest you read the story we are talking about. This is pretty common in our conversations. You pick out a sentence, make a general statement, but don't seem to be connected to what was actually being discussed.

And you have a tendency to try to make obviously bad things not so bad.

 

[Brian2]

Renouncing my belief in God and disavowing my Christian faith wasn't a decision that I took lightly, but it was one of the best decisions that I have ever made for my mental health. And, while I don't regret my decision, I do wish I had made it years ago. However, I realize that it wouldn't have been possible years ago because I was firmly ingrained in the Christian indoctrination that I had been subjected to my entire life. But I finally came to a breaking point and hit rock bottom before I gradually began to drag myself out of the pit of Christian indoctrination that I was buried in. My husband described it as me going to hell and back because it was such a painful and depressing experience for me. To be honest, I made it through because of him and our children.

I can see that it would not be easy.

 

[Brian2]

Dead Guy 1: What did you to deserve death?
Dead Guy 2: I ate shrimp for lunch.

Yes sea food can go off fast.

 

[dybmh]

No, YHWH is associated with war, not his set-apart spirit. Exodus 15:3. Also it makes no sense to associate the wrath of YHWH with his set-apart spirit.

It doesn't matter if YHVH is associated with war. That doesn't make it equivalent with satan. YHVH's wrath isn't satan either. If you want to make a claim which is more than a personal theory, then it needs to be in writing. In scripture.

Evidence of the traditional prejudice of Rabbinical Judaism.

Thanks for sharing your opinion about Rabbinic Judaism. But I'm not a Rabbi, and I'm not brining any Rabbi's interpretation. It's strictly from the text, which should be our common ground.

YHWH [is] a man of war: YHWH [is] his name.
Exodus 15:3

Right, but that's not satan.

YHWH shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.
Isaiah 42:13

So what? Prevailing over enemies is a good thing.

For I [will be] unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, [even] I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue [him].
Hosea 5:14

A lion = satan to you? This is more than far-fetched, this is ridiculous. You must really really want YHVH to be satan.

Hosea 5:14-6:6 relates to the Christian doctrine of resurrection on the third day and the repudiation of blood sacrifice.

All that means is that you have adopted a bias against the OT and want YHVH to be satan, and this is resulting in massive deviation from what is written.

Mat 9:13 - But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Therefore the authors of the christian bible ARE sinners. They cannot be trusted for accuracy. The chrstian translators of the OT cannot be trusted.

It's easy to see that YHVH is NOT satan. Chapter 1 of Job!

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1:6​

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.​

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1:7​

And the Lord said to Satan, Where are you coming from? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.​

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1:8​

And the Lord said to Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God, and turns away from evil?​

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1:9​

Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Does Job fear God for nothing?​

 

[dybmh]

And you have a tendency to try to make obviously bad things not so bad.

If you cherry pick, and ignore the context of the conversation, and refuse to read the stories in the bible then:

YOU are manufacturing the pattern you are observing. It's not ME, it's YOU.

If you need to cherry pick, and need to avoid the stories, and need to ignore the context to make your point, that means you have no real argument at all.

 

[ppp]

Is Satan capable of doing something that ends up good, and is God capable of doing something that results in bad?

Based on the content of the Bible? God is the more evil one.

 

[1213]

I did not say God can be blamed for your decision to do bad things . .. but, yes .. God creating "Bad" what ever bad is .. means that God wishes at least some to do bad things .. not necessarily all.

I don't think God created bad. Some people choose bad.

It is a logical imperative .. if God didn't want bad things to happen .. she could just stop them from happening.

I disagree with that. I think God wants people to be free. That means it is possible that some choose bad, even though God would not want it.

 

[1213]

But it can certainly be blamed for sitting by during every rape and torture of a child, right?

I have not seen any rape and torture happening so that God does nothing. How many times you have been watching such things thinking why God is not doing anything?

I mean, most people would seek to stop this horror. But apparently our morality is superior to this god.

On the other hand, people wanted to know evil. That is why people were expelled to this "Matrix" where many evil things are possible. Should God not have given this lesson to us, should He not allow us to know what evil is?

 

[crossfire]

Is it god or is it satan that is causing the people of this thread to squabble, and is that a good thing?

Where is faith without doubt? Blind.

 

[Sargonski]

I don't think God created bad. Some people choose bad.

I disagree with that

"I don't think" -- like I would say to my Son .. "But Dad .. I thought" -- Yes Son .. that was your first mistake .. thinking again

The fact that bad exists .. in your reality .. in your world .. bad people .. bad animals.. bad things happen from the weather .. is because that is the way God Wants it to be. You could have been created a unithought automaton .. humans have the ability to create that much .. surely God could have done the same in your creation .. but God Wanted something else .. so he created something else .. complete with "the bad" .. put there by God .. for your enjoyment .. as life would not be much fun without it .. now would it

I think God wants people to be free. That means it is possible that some choose bad, even though God would not want it.

Freedom comes with responsibility .. there is no freedom without the bad. Just because God Created "the bad" does not mean God is responsible for your decision to walk down that path.. do not conflat the two.

From the Bible we learn that Satan acts only within the Will of God .. though he be a God in his own right .. subservient to The Father .. as is other Son Jesus .. eminating righteousness and Justice .. a High Priest forever of the Order of Melchi-Zedek.

 

[Ebionite]

It doesn't matter if YHVH is associated with war. That doesn't make it equivalent with satan.

Straw man. It's the enmity that is associated with war that is equivalent with the title of Satan.

YHVH's wrath isn't satan either.

But you said:

If there is any sort of comparisson to be made it's אף־יהוה and שטן. That would mean Satan ( the accuser ) is a manifestation of YHVH's anger

Re prejudice:

It's strictly from the text, which should be our common ground.

If it was strictly from the text then you should have a reason for going with a minority interpretation.

All of the translations I've seen that relate to David numbering Israel do not personify the wrath of YHWH as your argument does. Also, attributing the adversarial nature to the set-apart spirit isn't consistent with war being associated with YHWH himself, not his spirit.

So what? Prevailing over enemies is a good thing

The point is that having enmity is consistent with being and adversary, so the title of haSatan is applicable in some contexts.

lion = satan to you?

No, the lion is the symbol which connects the adversarial nature of YHWH to specific contexts. In Christianity it is also associated with the revelation of hidden knowledge.

All that means is that you have adopted a bias against the OT and want YHVH to be satan, and this is resulting in massive deviation from what is written.

No, YHWH is the adversary only for specific contexts. What I'm doing is showing what those contexts are, ie David numbering Israel and Hosea 5.

Therefore the authors of the christian bible ARE sinners. They cannot be trusted for accuracy.

That's the same fallacy that Paul uses in his argument for original sin. Sin does not necessarily imply dishonesty.

It's easy to see that YHVH is NOT satan. Chapter 1 of Job!

Like I said off the bat, Satan is a title, not a proper name. In that context the identity of the adversary is unknown.

A separate example relates to Balaam and the angel, where the angel had the role of satan.