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Is Satan capable of good?

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
I disagree,

With what? We weren't talking about atheists and their attitudes, we were talking about you and your mistaken believe that this place is somehow supposed to 'belong' to religious people, and that atheists are Intruders here.

As long as you hold on to that illusion it's easy to understand why you feel cheated and picked on.

You're obviously operating under a false perception of what this place is, what it's intended for, and what you're entitled to here.

The reality is this place was created --- by an atheist as a matter of fact --- to facilitate discussion and debate, not just to accommodate religious people.

neutral atheists don’t join religious forums to promote Atheism and mock theists as they do here.
People's intentions for joining are neither here nor there. If somebody's here for the wrong reasons, they won't last very long.

Promoting anything is against the rules here, mocking anybody else's beliefs is also against the rules here.

We've been through all this before: if you see that going on and you don't report it it's on you.

I have no doubt you'll ignore that just like you've ignored that every other time.

Your adjective rationalization

It isn't a rationalization, it's a fact: the word 'religious' in our title is not an adjective, period.

I think I'm beginning to understand what's going on with you: you've somehow convinced yourself that this place, by rights, is meant to be primarily, or maybe even exclusively, for religious people, and the fact that it's not being run that way is just a failing on the part of the staff (or maybe it's part of some demonic plot).

You flat out refuse to report any of these things you keep whining about because, God forbid, something might wind up actually being done about them and then you'd have to find some other reason to feel like a martyr.

This is all just a game you're playing with yourself.

doesn’t hold water for the simple reason that atheist don’t see this place as a public park when they join, they see it as a religious park where they can antagonize theistic people.

Sounds like you're saying "We get a few trolls in here from time to time so obviously this place is just for trolls"

If that's how you see this place it must be because that's how you want to see it, and I'm not going to try and talk you out of it.

Have fun with that.
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Is Satan capable of doing something that ends up good, and is God capable of doing something that results in bad?
I do not believe in such a being called Satan. Satan to Baha’is symbolises the ego, the insistent self or lower self. God is All Good and always does what is good and best for us.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
There are a plethora of biblical stories of a sadistic, psychopathic, and genocidal God who commanded the Israelites to wipe other nations off the face of the earth. According to the Bible, God commanded the Israelites to wipe the Amalikites off the face of the earth (Exodus 17:8–13; 1 Samuel 15:2–3) and told them, "Now go, attack the Amalekites, and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’" (I Samuel 15:3). I wouldn't call this verse: "Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks" (Psalm 137:9) a shining example of morality from the Bible either. FYI, "Violence in the Bible: Greatest Hits" has more examples of violence in the Bible.

According to the Bible, God is capable of hatred, jealousy, and wrath, and he committed global genocide. To be quite honest, I don't believe that anyone should derive their understanding of morality from the Bible. I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't see a loving, merciful, and just God. How about you?

Bible verses on God's jealousy.

Deuteronomy 4:24 "For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."

Psalms 78:58 "For they provoked Him with their high places and aroused His jealousy with their graven images."

Exodus 20:5 "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me."

Exodus 34:13-14 "Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."

Deuteronomy 6:15 "for the Lord your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the Lord your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off the face of the earth."

Nahum 1:2 The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord is avenging and wrathful; the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies.

Bible verses on God's wrath.

Nahum 1:6 "Who can withstand his indignation? Who can endure his fierce anger. His wrath is poured out like fire; the rocks are shattered before him."

Ezekiel 25:17 "I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them.”

John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

Romans 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth."

Romans 12:19 "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Ephesians 5:6 "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
i do not agree with the authenticity of what are chroniclers not Prophets or Messengers and even the author for the passages on the Amalekites is unknown. So we cannot say these are authored by God. Here is one explanation regarding the stories of chroniclers.

As to that which hath been mentioned in the Torah and the Scriptures regarding Lot and his daughters and the apostatizing of some of the Prophets, these are but a medley of dreams for which God hath sent down no warrant. These are only the sayings of the chroniclers among the people of the Book. Know ye that the Torah is what was revealed in the Tablets unto Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that which He was commanded to do. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him. The evidence of this is that in the last Book', there is mention of events that transpired after the passing of Moses, and this is a clear and manifest proof that these stories were recorded after Moses, may peace be upon Him.

These narratives are not reliable; they are stories and accounts concerning which God hath sent down no warrant. For the noble Book and mighty Decree is the Tablets which Moses, upon Him be peace, brought from Mount Sinai, and the laws which He proclaimed unto the children of Israel, in accordance with the explicit text of those Tablets. Therefore, be not astonished by the accounts penned by the chroniclers after Moses, as these accounts are not amongst the firm and conclusive verses of the Scriptures and Tablets. (Abdul-Baha)


1 The Book of Deuteronomy, the last chapter of which speaks of the death of Moses and the succession of Joshua.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do you find this discussion from an Islamic perspective accurate? Shaitan - Wikipedia Iblis - Wikipedia ?
My understanding:

(1) Angels (a) have free-will.
(2) Iblis was once an Angel.
(3) God's close Angels or God's Angels are those who won't go astray, they are chosen like Prophets (a), but Angels are saints/good among Jinn, they can go astray.
(4) Shayateen whether from Jinn or astral projecting humans use to be able to steal hearings from heaven, but not with arrival of Ahlulbayt (a), now they cannot or will be destroyed.
(5) The first plan was we would all be Angels, but when early on - Angels became over all prideful and arrogant, God decided to create a volatile race of humans and put his chosen ones and rulers/representatives among them to try the Angels and take away their arrogance. They passed except Iblis.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
There are a plethora of biblical stories of a sadistic, psychopathic, and genocidal God who commanded the Israelites to wipe other nations off the face of the earth. According to the Bible, God commanded the Israelites to wipe the Amalikites off the face of the earth (Exodus 17:8–13; 1 Samuel 15:2–3) and told them, "Now go, attack the Amalekites, and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’" (I Samuel 15:3). I wouldn't call this verse: "Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks" (Psalm 137:9) a shining example of morality from the Bible either. FYI, "Violence in the Bible: Greatest Hits" has more examples of violence in the Bible.

According to the Bible, God is capable of hatred, jealousy, and wrath, and he committed global genocide. To be quite honest, I don't believe that anyone should derive their understanding of morality from the Bible. I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't see a loving, merciful, and just God. How about you?

Bible verses on God's jealousy.

Deuteronomy 4:24 "For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."

Psalms 78:58 "For they provoked Him with their high places and aroused His jealousy with their graven images."

Exodus 20:5 "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me."

Exodus 34:13-14 "Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."

Deuteronomy 6:15 "for the Lord your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the Lord your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off the face of the earth."

Nahum 1:2 The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord is avenging and wrathful; the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies.

Bible verses on God's wrath.

Nahum 1:6 "Who can withstand his indignation? Who can endure his fierce anger. His wrath is poured out like fire; the rocks are shattered before him."

Ezekiel 25:17 "I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them.”

John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

Romans 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth."

Romans 12:19 "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Ephesians 5:6 "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”

The one good example you brought is from Psalms 137. The others have explanations written into the story which do not match your description.

Regarding morality, the point is: no one is above the law. That's the message.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Regarding

The only way you know these figures, Christine, is because the Bible ie., God’s own Word reveals them. (Otherwise we wouldn’t know.)

Ask yourself, “Why would He be so candid?”

Id dispute "god's own word" I've yet to see a passage marked 'according to god"

Why indeed would one boast about the lives he's taken prematurely?
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
No, the analogy you used is easy to understand, it's just off the mark.



This isn't a 'religious forum', it's a forum about religion. Atheists have just as much business being here as anyone else.

Again: the 'religious' in the title isn't an adjective.



^Here's why I say your analogy doesn't work: if an atheist were home in his garden, it would obviously be his garden, and the religious person would be an intruder.

That isn't the case here. Religious people don't have any claim of ownership over RF, not any more than atheists do. This place is common ground, if it's a garden it's a community garden, and nobody who isn't an outright troll or a spammer is intruding.




"leave me alone and stay out of my yard" would sound pretty silly if the person shouting it were standing in the middle of a public park.
I disagree, neutral atheists don’t join religious forums to promote Atheism and mock theists as they do here. Your adjective rationalization doesn’t hold water for the simple reason that atheist don’t see this place as a public park when they join, they see it as a religious park where they can antagonize theistic people.
Id dispute "god's own word" I've yet to see a passage marked 'according to god"

Why indeed would one boast about the lives he's taken prematurely?
”Thus says the Lord”
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Seriously? It's written all over the OT. But that doesn't seem to be important for your convo happening now. Just thought I'd mention it.

Where? Show me any passage marked as written by god
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I disagree, neutral atheists don’t join religious forums to promote Atheism and mock theists as they do here. Your adjective rationalization doesn’t hold water for the simple reason that atheist don’t see this place as a public park when they join, they see it as a religious park where they can antagonize theistic people.

”Thus says the Lord”

Written by man.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
@dybmh abd @Colt

These are copied from Wikipedia

  1. Genesis (50 Chapters)
  2. Exodus (40 Chapters)
  3. Leviticus (27 Chapters)
  4. Numbers (36 Chapters)
  5. Deuteronomy (34 Chapters)
  6. Joshua (24 Chapters)
  7. Judges (21 Chapters)
  8. Ruth (4 chapters)
  9. 1 Samuel (31 Chapters)
  10. 2 Samuel (24 Chapters)
  11. 1 Kings (22 Chapters)
  12. 2 Kings (25 Chapters)
  13. 1 Chronicles (29 Chapters)
  14. 2 Chronicles (36 Chapters)
  15. Ezra (10 Chapters)[a]
  16. Nehemiah (13 Chapters)[a]
  17. Esther (10 Chapters)
  18. Job (42 Chapters)
  19. Psalms (150 Chapters)
  20. Proverbs (31 Chapters)
  21. Ecclesiastes (12 Chapters)
  22. Song of Solomon (8 Chapters)
  23. Isaiah (66 Chapters)
  24. Jeremiah (52 Chapters)
  25. Lamentations (5 Chapters)
  26. Ezekiel (48 Chapters)
  27. Daniel (12 Chapters)https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Testament#cite_note-i-12
    [*]Hosea (14 Chapters)
    [*]Joel (3 Chapters)
    [*]Amos (9 Chapters)
    [*]Obadiah (1 Chapter)
    [*]Jonah (4 Chapters)
    [*]Micah (7 Chapters)
    [*]Nahum (3 Chapters)
    [*]Habakkuk (3 Chapters)
    [*]Zephaniah (3 Chapters)
    [*]Haggai (2 Chapters)
    [*]Zechariah (14 Chapters)
    [*]Malachi (4 Chapters)

Not one by god. And its the same in the NT
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
I disagree, neutral atheists don’t join religious forums to promote Atheism and mock theists as they do here. Your adjective rationalization doesn’t hold water for the simple reason that atheist don’t see this place as a public park when they join, they see it as a religious park where they can antagonize theistic people.

This is just a copy of a post that you made previously and I already addressed it in post 101.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Not one by god. And its the same in the NT

I have no idea what the list you posted is attempting to say.

But Dahbair YHVH "The Lord spoke..." is written 149 times in the OT. And that's just one easy example. So, what ever words come after that are composed by the Lord.

And, Exodus 19:6, the Lord is speaking to Moses and says:

"...These are the words which you shall speak to the people of Israel."

So, the bible is claiming to be coming from God.

I'm sure I can come up with more better examples.

Or is it that you want photographic evidence of a Greek/Egyptian/Humanoid/Sky-daddy with a quill and ink in hand?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I have no idea what the list you posted is attempting to say.

But Dahbair YHVH "The Lord spoke..." is written 149 times in the OT. And that's just one easy example. So, what ever words come after that are composed by the Lord.

And, Exodus 19:6, the Lord is speaking to Moses and says:

"...These are the words which you shall speak to the people of Israel."

So, the bible is claiming to be coming from God.

I'm sure I can come up with more better examples.

Or is it that you want photographic evidence of a Greek/Egyptian/Humanoid/Sky-daddy with a quill and ink in hand?

All written by man who claimed god spoke in the 3rd person. And you know damn well what the chapters of the OT are.

What i want is first person evidence, not heresy. But you can believe whatever you want
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
All written by man who claimed god spoke in the 3rd person.

Um, no. That's not true. Not in the 3rd person.

I gave you the example from Exodus 19. That's first person.

And what comes next is famous. Exodus 20:2. "I am The Lord..." is first person.

You actually don't know the bible, and aren't reading the replies are you?

And you know damn well what the chapters of the OT are.

But they have no relevance, they don't mean anything. It'a as meaningless as copying and pasting the developers handbook for CKeditor5.

What i want is first person evidence, not heresy. But you can believe whatever you want

LOL. First person evidence of a text compiled over 2000 years ago, composed earlier than that. Do you know what "first person evidence means"?

Here's what you said:

I've yet to see a passage marked 'according to god"

That doesn't say "1st person". And it's not saying first person evidence either. It's completely false, and demonstrates a true lack of knowledge about what is actually written.

That's 2 goal post shifts. And it's a ridiculous request. First person evidence not hearsay from 1000s of years ago. That's pretty typical for someone getting their facts from reddit and not checking on them. And ignoring the story which is quoted to them 4 times.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
So everyone should live forever? And the worst of the worst criminals shouldn't lose their lives?

We've talked about this before, and each time you've ignored scripture, ignored the story, in favor of this posting the shallow picture. Bascially, in the past, you've shown you really don't care about the details, just flinging poo from a cage.
It's that they were killed prematurely, murdered, even, like the first born of Egypt.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
It's that they were killed prematurely, murdered, even, like the first born of Egypt.

And there's a lesson there which does not include a "blood-thirsty-god". In fact, all those who died in the story, from beginning to end teach a lesson. None of it is blood-thirsty, killing for the sake of saticfying a desire for human-death.

And if we go back to the flow of the convo I was having, over a million of those deaths were in self-defense, and wasn't God doing the actual killing. But my debate partner ignores those details. Repeatedly. That's why I said: "each time you've ignored scripture, ignored the story"
 
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