Is Satan capable of good?

[Shadow Wolf]

And there's a lesson there which does not include a "blood-thirsty-god". In fact, all those who died in the story, from beginning to end teach a lesson. None of it is blood-thirsty, killing for the sake of saticfying a desire for human-death.

And if we go back to the flow of the convo I was having. over a million of those deaths were in self-defense. But my debate partner ignores those details. Repeatedly.

Seof defense doesn't really apply when it's humans going against a god, especially when this god can do basically anything.

 

[dybmh]

Seof defense doesn't really apply when it's humans going against a god, especially when this god can do basically anything.

It wasn't that. It was an invading army who declared they were coming after the wives and the children. Then the Jewish nation, killed the invaders. And his gets counted as a blood thirsty god killing people.

When this was presented, it was basically ignored. At one point, there was a comment, "well God should have told them to go home." Kind of a silly comment.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It wasn't that. It was an invading army who declared they were coming after the wives and the children. Then the Jewish nation, killed the invaders. And his gets counted as a blood thirsty god killing people.

When this was presented, it was basically ignored. At one point, there was a comment, "well God should have told them to go home." Kind of a silly comment.

He changed the hearts of others but couldn't send them away?

 

[dybmh]

He changed the hearts of others but couldn't send them away?

God could have, but that's a different story, with a different lesson. None the less, the claim is that these deaths describe a blood thirsty god. When in fact, it describes a god who will help the Jewish nation if they are outnumbered and attacked. Basically.

 

[Kenny]

Is Satan capable of doing something that ends up good, and is God capable of doing something that results in bad?

No... I don't believe that Satan is capable of any good. It isn't his nature.

Second part is more complicated since self will is interjected in what God created as good so, at least in man's case, we can change what God meant for good and change it for bad.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

God could have, but that's a different story, with a different lesson. None the less, the claim is that these deaths describe a blood thirsty god. When in fact, it describes a god who will help the Jewish nation if they are outnumbered and attacked. Basically.

Helped by destorying and slaughtering people he could have other wise poofed onto the ither side of the planet.
And I mentioned the first born of Egypt. That was the wholesale cold blooded murder of those who had nothing to do with the events that lead up to their slaughter.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Helped by destorying and slaughtering people he could have other wise poofed onto the ither side of the planet.
And I mentioned the first born of Egypt. That was the wholesale cold blooded murder of those who had nothing to do with the events that lead up to their slaughter.

There is also a biblical story about King Herod killing all the baby boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under because he was angry about being outwitted by the Magi (Matthew 2:16). According to verses 17–18, the slaughter of these innocent boys fulfilled a prophecy in Jeremiah.

 

[dybmh]

Helped by destorying and slaughtering people he could have other wise poofed onto the ither side of the planet.

So, the lesson there that is being told is "you don't have to do anything for yourself, just sit back and let God do everything for you." The story that is actually written is a partnership, believe it or not.

And I mentioned the first born of Egypt. That was the wholesale cold blooded murder of those who had nothing to do with the events that lead up to their slaughter.

Well.... not exactly. According to the story, the egyptian people were killing ALL the jewish male babies for many many years. That includes the egyptian first born who were involved. Those egyptian first born are guilty. Now, it's possible, probable, that there were young children killed who were not actively involved, and that becomes more complicated.

But, it's not blood-thirsty. That's justice, and actually somewhat merciful. Every innocent jewish male baby for many years was murdered? Penalty? A one time event where only the first born were murdered, and some of them were innocent.

Many-many more innocent jewish babies were killed compared to the innocent egyptians who were killed. It's justice.

If the claim is, "it's a blood thirsty god", then there would be at least tit-for-tat, equal numbers of egyptian babies wold have been killed.

 

[dybmh]

There is also a biblical story about King Herod killing all the baby boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under because he was angry about being outwitted by the Magi (Matthew 2:16). According to verses 17–18, the slaughter of these innocent boys fulfilled a prophecy in Jeremiah.

Is this a negative role model? Is Herod a good-guy in the story? And it's never a good idea to trust the christian bible about prophecies in the hebrew bible. They need to be compared each time carefully unless the details are basically memorized.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So, the lesson there that is being told is "you don't have to do anything for yourself, just sit back and let God do everything for you." The story that is actually written is a partnership, believe it or not.

No, the point is it could have been a lesson in peace and harmoniously coexisting and how bad war is. But instead it's bloodshed with a god who could have averted it amd saw to it that people learn to live with eachother without violence, and punish specifically those who wanted to bring such hells, torments and traumas upon people.
It's not saying sit back and god will do it all for you, it's that god could let the doing for themselves by beating swords into ploughshares and using that effort and time and those resources to create and make value for society rather than letting all go towards things that destroy and bring torture and cruelty upon others (like all those people put to the sword amd the women kept as sex slaves). God let's all that happen. That is cruel and bloodthirsty.

Well.... not exactly. According to the story, the egyptian people were killing ALL the jewish male babies for many many years. That includes the egyptian first born who were involved. Those egyptian first born are guilty. Now, it's possible, probable, that there were young children killed who were not actively involved, and that becomes more complicated.

But, it's not blood-thirsty. That's justice, and actually somewhat merciful. Every innocent jewish male baby for many years was murdered? Penalty? A one time event where only the first born were murdered, and some of them were innocent.

Many-many more innocent jewish babies were killed compared to the innocent egyptians who were killed. It's justice.

If the claim is, "it's a blood thirsty god", then there would be at least tit-for-tat, equal numbers of egyptian babies wold have been killed.

What you describe is not justice, it cold blooded vengeance by murdering the innocent. Uneven numbers do not change that. Amd it can never be rightly called justice or merciful when those who are innocent bear the consequences and punishments. Thats the deeds of the types of tyrannical madman who would poison wells.

 

[dybmh]

No, the point is it could have been a lesson in peace and harmoniously coexisting and how bad war is. But instead it's bloodshed with a god who could have averted it amd saw to it that people learn to live with eachother without violence, and punish specifically those who wanted to bring such hells, torments and traumas upon people.

I'm not sure what you've said describes "a lesson in peace and harmoniously coexisting" if the people get magically 'poofed' to the opposite side of the world. Thats not living harmoniously or peacefully just magical isolation. And if I'm reading the story, and applying it, then if I am invaded, then I'm expecting God to magically 'poof' those aggressors. So, I wouldn't assemble an army, or a military, because that would be lacking faith in God. That's a recipe for disaster in the real world.

And, according to the story, the invaders did get punished specifically.

It's not saying sit back and god will do it all for you, it's that god could let the doing for themselves by beating swords into ploughshares and using that effort and time and those resources to create and make value for society rather than letting all go towards things that destroy and bring torture and cruelty upon others (like all those people put to the sword amd the women kept as sex slaves).

It sounds like you are describing a story where either there is no war, ever, or there is no fighting ever. Do you think that such a story would be accepted as "real"? "real" is in quotes because I agree the story is already unrealistic, but this makes it completely irrelevant.

The sex-slaves is a false claim, if I recall, based on a several false translation issues. If you want to include those as part of the english-translation of the bible. That's fine. I'm not using that. That's a different book, kind of a different god.

God let's all that happen. That is cruel and bloodthirsty.

I disagree. But, this is changing the topic a bit. The claim at the beginning is "God killed all these people because it is blood-thirsty." That's different compared to: "God allowed all of that to happen."

Answering why it is allowed to happen is a much much bigger question. If we can get beyond "God killed all these people because it is blood-thirsty" and you still feel like talking about "God allowed all of that to happen", we can do that.

What you describe is not justice, it cold blooded vengeance by murdering the innocent. Uneven numbers do not change that.

The punishment should fit the crime.

Amd it can never be rightly called justice or merciful when those who are innocent bear the consequences and punishments. Thats the deeds of the types of tyrannical madman who would poison wells.

Poisoning wells effects everyone, this was more like, for every 100 you killed, I'm going to kill 1.

We don't know how many innocents were killed, correct? It could have been none. Probably there were some children in the mix, but, it's possible there weren't.

If we can agree to here, then I'll be happy to continue with my argument. If we cant agree that it is unknown whether or not any innocents were killed, there is no reason to continue the debate.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm not sure what you've said describes "a lesson in peace and harmoniously coexisting" if the people get magically 'poofed' to the opposite side of the world. Thats not living harmoniously or peacefully just magical isolation. And if I'm reading the story, and applying it, then if I am invaded, then I'm expecting God to magically 'poof' those aggressors. So, I wouldn't assemble an army, or a military, because that would be lacking faith in God. That's a recipe for disaster in the real world.

And, according to the story, the invaders did get punished specifically.

It's the fact god could have done a great many things to avert the bloodshed and chosen instead to punish only those who did break the peace. But instead the nightmares and horrors of war is what he went with.

It sounds like you are describing a story where either there is no war, ever, or there is no fighting ever. Do you think that such a story would be accepted as "real"? "real" is in quotes because I agree the story is already unrealistic, but this makes it completely irrelevant.

More real than a global flood or a river turning to blood. And it makes for a better story that teaches better values and conflict resolution that creates and builds rather than destroy.

The sex-slaves is a false claim, if I recall, based on a several false translation issues. If you want to include those as part of the english-translation of the bible. That's fine. I'm not using that. That's a different book, kind of a different god.

Its the same god going by the book.
Could you reference this translation error?

I disagree. But, this is changing the topic a bit. The claim at the beginning is "God killed all these people because it is blood-thirsty." That's different compared to: "God allowed all of that to happen."

Answering why it is allowed to happen is a much much bigger question. If we can get beyond "God killed all these people because it is blood-thirsty" and you still feel like talking about "God allowed all of that to happen", we can do that.

It's s still on topic.
And we have those motives as to why all that happened. The bigger question is why has god not realized his solution hasn't ever worked. Like the flood. His goal of wiping out wickedness failed, and all those people died for naught.

The punishment should fit the crime.

Not to the point it leaves the world hungry, blind and worth a pile of dead kids.

Poisoning wells effects everyone, this was more like, for every 100 you killed, I'm going to kill 1.

I said it's like that, because it was still widespread, indiscriminate killing of those who are innocent.

We don't know how many innocents were killed, correct? It could have been none. Probably there were some children in the mix, but, it's possible there weren't.

If we can agree to here, then I'll be happy to continue with my argument. If we cant agree that it is unknown whether or not any innocents were killed, there is no reason to continue the debate.

That's a lot of probablies when we both know how the story goes.

 

[1213]

Is Satan capable of doing something that ends up good, and is God capable of doing something that results in bad?

I don't see any reason why they would not be. I just believe God would not want to do bad things and Satan wants to opposite of what is God's will. However, I also think bad things Satan has done, can end up being for good, even though the intention is bad.

 

[Sargonski]

Is Satan capable of doing something that ends up good, and is God capable of doing something that results in bad?

Our Friend Sataniel does not show up to the party with horns, red cape and a tail Brother Fox .. would quickly lose title as the greatest deceiver were that to happen.

Great questions!

I don't apply will to Satan. It has no will of its own, so, it doesn't actually do anything. God, in theory, can do whatever it wants, and I am unable to judge accurately if it is good or bad. I can only appreciate it or understand it from a finite perspective.

Not only does Sataniel have a will .. that will is manifested into the word. .. and of course you are able to Judge that for which a brain was given.

"Its beyond understanding" is fallacious self delusional deceptive blather often given by Trinity adherents .. failing the ability to explain the inherent contradiction. It is not that they don't understand the contradiction .. finite or infinite don't matter .. it is that the ideology contradicts itself .. and is thus flawed.. horribly and the adherent can not deal with this reality .. and so "Its beyond understanding" that which is easily understood

 

[Sargonski]

It's the fact god could have done a great many things to avert the bloodshed and chosen instead to punish only those who did break the peace. But instead the nightmares and horrors of war is what he went with.

More real than a global flood or a river turning to blood. And it makes for a better story that teaches better values and conflict resolution that creates and builds rather than destroy.

Its the same god going by the book.
Could you reference this translation error?

but what would you have learned had God decided to be an interventionalist ?? Nothing .. Zip .. Nada .. !

 

[Sargonski]

I don't see any reason why they would not be. I just believe God would not want to do bad things and Satan wants to opposite of what is God's will. However, I also think bad things Satan has done, can end up being for good, even though the intention is bad.

Of course God wants to do bad things.. This follows logically from the fact that there are bad things. If God did not want bad things .. there would not be any bad things.

What also follows down this line .. is that "IF" God is all powerfull and there is only one God .. then God is Satan ... and is experienced as a duality .. a split personality Dualism is not dead ... just repressed.

 

[Brian2]

The atheist belief is that there is no god nothing more, nothing less.

Freudian slip?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Is Satan capable of doing something that ends up good, and is God capable of doing something that results in bad?

Reading the bible, it seems god is almost incapable of doing something that does NOT result in bad.

The whole mess, as per the bible, is his own responsibility.
It's failure after failure after failure, causing him to feel the need to start over with the flood, to have himself sacrificed to himself to find a loophole out of a doomed system of his own creation.

Futhermore in the bible, Satan is responsible for the death of a handfull of people and all of them happened with the blessing and approval of god (on a bet even with the Job story). Meanwhile, god is responsible for genocide after genocide. Both by his own hand as by the hand of his followers as per his commandments.

When I first read through the bible (I was about 16-17), the primary question in my head after finishing it was "why on earth do people believe that god in this story is the good guy??"

 

[Kfox]

Satan was a brilliant and able administrator, perfect in all his ways UNTIL he went south and joined all out rebellion against the Father. With that decided rebellion then "there came to be no truth in him". Satan was good and became evil. God is always good and cannot do the ungodlike thing.

Do you think Satan will ever do something that results in good, and God doing things that result in bad?

 

[Colt]

Do you think Satan will ever do something that results in good, and God doing things that result in bad?

In my belief Satan was afforded every opportunity to repent, accept fogginess and rehabilitate. He fully embraced iniquity and will be judged if he hasn't already been annihilated.

Gods way always the right way!