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Is science against the Revealed Religion?

leibowde84

Veteran Member
All I know is using reason to make sense. So you say if something doesn't make sense, it isn't an argument. Why don't you convince yourself before you try to convince someone else.



Make up your mind, are you accusing me of generalizing or not?



I use a much broader term that fits all of them and just about all the rest, revealed religions. Generalizing there works to a T, it's just that simple. Don't you feel just a little bit guilty about accusing me of generalizing one minute, and not the next, back and forth, back and forth--never seeming to realize that sometimes that's what's called for? For instance, I pretty much cagegorize all NAZIs as stereotypical effluent bound for a subterranean septic tank. People who stick to "their side" at the cost of all reason while building a self-serving facade of subjective morality are all but indistinguishable.
Actually, if you look at the history of the Nazi party and how they came to power, it isn't cut and dry as you say. I hate the Nazis too, but it is a complicated history.

Also, I never said that you weren't generalizaing. That is my whole point. You can't assign beliefs to atheism, as it indicates the lack of a specific belief. If you want to get at what an individual atheist does believe, then you have to ask them about it. It is not valid to just make assumptions about what atheists "should" believe or what not.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
I agree with you.
Simply seeking rather craving for reason and why by humans; isn't it enough proof of G-d's existence?
Regards
Religious beliefs are, in effect, the subject giving up on the search and settling with an unverifiable answer. For this reason, it seems to inhibit intellectual growth in a way.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
And if there is, I can only speculate further on my speculation that God, if It exists, created the universe as a stage on which to exercise our free will. Then, an irrational (not always logical) universe would make our decisions, including especially our moral decisions, impossible, in such chaotic, illogical surroundings.
Why put if? G-d exists. Is not the logical inner self believing in a free will and exercising it a proof of G-d's existence?
Regards
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Why put if? G-d exists. Is not the logical inner self believing in a free will and exercising it a proof of G-d's existence?
Regards
No. Why would it be? If you are making the claim that "believing in free will and exercising it" is proof for God's existence, you have to provide evidence for why this claim is true. It is certainly not "self-evident" as you seem to imply, as many who recognize this truth, still do not see it as any reason to believe in God.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
That the many times I've identified myself as agnostic and fought against the definition of agnosticism as a form of atheism might, just maybe, be read before others attribute to me positions I don't hold.

Ok fine, you're an agnostic, why do I have to go on a research project to find that out. Just put it up under your avatar unless are you'd be ashamed. And just being an agnostic doesn't say anything, that's just the same as saying "I don't know". You can be agnostic about a lot of things.

Ok, fine. What argument have I ever made against revealed gods or any other?

The straw unicorn is a sarcastic form of anti-revelation. It doesn't apply to deism (or atheism) because no claim to evidence is made either way. They're merely the only (two reasonable) possibilities left after all the revelations and miracles have been disposed of.


I stand for the position that one can not know and neither be atheist nor theist nor deist nor...well, anything other than agnostic.

Well first off, there's massive evidence against theism and none for it except hearsay. And I call myself an agnostic deist because I prefer deism to atheism, while I still hold the two philosophies to be equally reasonable.

So when are you going to start?
Using reason that is.
Are you confusing reason with ratification?

Yes, that's what I'm doing.:cool:

I am not the one trying to convince others.
That would be you.

What are you doing here then?

Your "argument" is basically nothing more than "it does not make sense (-- --) therefore it is wrong".

**just needed a little editing there**

Actually, if you look at the history of the Nazi party and how they came to power, it isn't cut and dry as you say. I hate the Nazis too, but it is a complicated history.

What's complicated about genocide? And socialism always fails no matter how you camouflage it.

Also, I never said that you weren't generalizaing. That is my whole point. You can't assign beliefs to atheism, as it indicates the lack of a specific belief. If you want to get at what an individual atheist does believe, then you have to ask them about it. It is not valid to just make assumptions about what atheists "should" believe or what not.

There's basically only two types of atheism, hard and agnostic. Do I need to qualify myself every time I talk about it? I think it's unnecessary since it's pretty obvious--equating reasonable atheism and deism as I do just about every other post where atheism is being discussed. Or I could put it in my sig: "Hard atheism is unreasonable, agnostic atheism is not".

I agree with you.
Simply seeking rather craving for reason and why by humans; isn't it enough proof of G-d's existence?
Regards

But they toss reason out the window the minute they accept hearsay revelation/supernatural events as fact. It's like wishing something made sense, and then telling yourself that your wish was granted.

Religious beliefs are, in effect, the subject giving up on the search and settling with an unverifiable answer. For this reason, it seems to inhibit intellectual growth in a way.

Exactly, and that's why philosophy is so important and why I characterize Truth as God--WHATEVER that Truth is.

Science is not in a position to be telling people about the ''revealed religion''.

Huh? The minute a religion posts a revelation, they put up hearsay for science to refute--which they do by saying, that's pure hearsay.

If this is true, then shouldn't religion stay away from attempting to describe how the physical world works?

Yes. Good luck with that. The problem is they all use revelation and miracles to sway the emotions of the less discriminating.

Why put if? G-d exists. Is not the logical inner self believing in a free will and exercising it a proof of G-d's existence?
Regards

No. Why would it? Free will simply means free of divine influence--and if God doesn't exist......
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ok fine, you're an agnostic, why do I have to go on a research project to find that out.
Is it that hard to ask? How harder is it to ask then assume?

Just put it up under your avatar unless are you'd be ashamed.
I had it under my avatar for years. I removed it when I left, and haven't thought to put it back. Also, it didn't stop other from accusing me of being an atheist or a creationist depending upon what I said about some topic.

And just being an agnostic doesn't say anything
Being anything always says something. In this case, it says that despite a long search for answers regarding questions such as those about the existence of god, I haven't found any.

The straw unicorn is a sarcastic form of anti-revelation.
Actually it was about the nature of probability. Binary mutually exclusive possibilities need not be 50/50 (and rarely are). I could have said that "either there is life on Mars, or there isn't" as an example of this, or many others. But occasionally alliteration seems the way to go. However, I wasn't arguing against revealed religion, deism, pantheism, or anything other than an incorrect statement about probabilities.
 

McBell

Unbound

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Is it that hard to ask? How harder is it to ask then assume?
I had it under my avatar for years. I removed it when I left, and haven't thought to put it back. Also, it didn't stop other from accusing me of being an atheist or a creationist depending upon what I said about some topic.

So yes, your ashamed.
Being anything always says something. In this case, it says that despite a long search for answers regarding questions such as those about the existence of god, I haven't found any.

I see why you're ashamed. You haven't even been able to eliminate being a fundamentalist theist.

Actually it was about the nature of probability. Binary mutually exclusive possibilities need not be 50/50 (and rarely are).

I agree, but in this case, there being absolutely no evidence for or against either position, they are the rare exception.

I could have said that "either there is life on Mars, or there isn't" as an example of this, or many others. But occasionally alliteration seems the way to go
.

But there is evidence to work with and with the probability of finding more.

However, I wasn't arguing against revealed religion, deism, pantheism, or anything other than an incorrect statement about probabilities.

Fine, except it isn't incorrect.

Therefore? Do you have a default position, that whenever something is unproven, you don't believe it? That really is not a good argument, imo.

My default position is disbelief when the only evidence is hearsay. Contrariwise, when there are two equally likely, or unlikely, possibilities, with no evidence at all, I'm free to believe either or neither, while reminding myself of the total lack of evidence, much less proof.

thank you for your honesty.

:cool:

posting my opinions.
Just like you.

Why, to keep your typing skills in tune?

Though, unlike you, I am not claiming my opinions to be some sort of god given "truth".

When have I ever claimed god given truth?

This explains quite a bit actually.
Especially if you apply the same technique to your Scriptures...

OK, now you're just trying get me riled up, but you don't have my permission to let you offend me.

Agnostic deistic scripture........o_O...........Bwahahhahahahahah. BTW, the sanctimonious pretensions behind that word have it at the top of my most hated words list. "Ministries" is right up there as well. "Section 8 housing" would be up there too, but that's a phrase.
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So yes, your ashamed.
How on earth does that follow.


I see why you're ashamed. You haven't even been able to eliminate being a fundamentalist theist.
I have eliminated being an atheist or theist or deist or anything other than an agnostic because that's what I am. I haven't eliminated the possibility that some fundamentalist theism might actually be right, even if I regard this as highly unlikely and far less likely than e.g., that there is no god.

I agree, but in this case, there being absolutely no evidence for or against either position, they are the rare exception.
Not true, actually, but it doesn't matter. Probability isn't the number of possible cases divided by this number for each possible case, or this number with whatever evidence we have. Two mutually exclusive outcomes have probability 50/50 only if both outcomes are equally likely. Empirical interpretations of probability (i.e., those which allow evidence to change the probability or allow for falsifications) are based on the basic (frequentist) probability of Kolmogorov (von Mises formulated an empirical probability interpretation before Kolmogorov, but Kolmogorov formalized probability, giving us the axiomatic probability theory we have come to know and love). In such interpretations we calculate probabilities such as that of a fair coin by imagining an infinite number of identical "experiments" of flips and take the limit. Without evidence, there is no way to calculate the value given this or any empirical probability interpretation.

Subjective interpretations don't help you here either. While they have their origins in Bayes and Laplace and to some extent earlier thinkers, it wasn't until Keynes, De Finetti, Ramsey, Cox, Good, Savage, Jeffreys, and others that the subjectivist interpretation was sufficiently well formalized and once again, we find that 0 evidence for two mutually exclusive outcomes doesn't give us a 50/50 split. In fact, in the entire history of the development of probability, no interpretation (rigorously formalized or no) provides us with a basis for calculating the probability that one of two possible outcomes/states is 50/50 because we have no evidence that either outcome/state is true.
.
But there is evidence to work with and with the probability of finding more.
Which allows us to compute how likely one or the other probability is using Bayesian theory (usually, although there are other methods), but this neither gives us the probabilities and we can do the same for the existence of god.

Fine, except it isn't incorrect.
By all means, let's here how your idiomatic probability calculus works to make your statement correct.

My default position is disbelief when the only evidence is hearsay.
Have you ever seen electrons? Have you been to every place that hearsay would have believe exists (like every town or city on a map)? Have you ever received medical advice you believed to be good just because the doctor said so? The problem is that while there are many things that you (IMO, rightly) believe to be true and for which there exists evidence, for most of these you have to accept hearsay evidence that there is evidence.

Better still, as one's position exists only in relationship to one's belief in the truth of some statement, the existence of something, the reality of some state of affairs, etc., nobody has a default position. What you describe is a default position to claims in the truth of propositions/SoAs, not a default position.

Contrariwise, when there are two equally likely, or unlikely, possibilities, with no evidence at all, I'm free to believe either or neither, while reminding myself of the total lack of evidence, much less proof.
You're free to believe both, either, and neither regardless of evidence, but this doesn't make the probability 50/50.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I see friends finding fault with the revealed religion; but not complying with the conditions in the OP:
  • A peer reviewed article published in a science journal of repute
  • From a text book of science
  • Please mention the specific science discipline that deals with it
where science has endorsed their views.

The thing is that, there are NO PEER REVIEW at all, with regarding to ANY religion, so it is pretty pointless asking if there are science journals that oppose religion.

That's not to say that ANY religion is correct, right or being "factual". That's because religion, whether they be "revealed" or not, have absolutely nothing to do with science.

Science and religion are two different areas, and totally unrelated to one and another. That's why science is not against religion, again, whether they be revealed or not.

It is when religious people who make claims that their scriptures have "scientific values" or "scientific merits", that when their respective religion under spotlight or under scrutiny. It is these people who need to back up their claims, not the scientists. And often Muslims and Christians are the ones making baseless claims about their holy books, not any scientist (unless that scientist is either Christian or Muslim).

There are no science journals about religion, so it is pointless of you to even ask for one. Religion is not science...and science is not a religion.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Did Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster,Moses, Jesus,Socrates Muhammad torture or kill any scientist?
That's a loaded question, paarsurrey.

I really doubt any one in that list of yours, have ever met a scientist before, so your question is pointless.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Science and religion are two different areas, and totally unrelated to one and another.
I wouldn't go that far. After all, religion usually involves an attempt to explain the nature of reality as well as positions on issues such as the origin of the cosmos, the mind, etc. Religions (at least today) contain a good deal of philosophy and ontological commitment. The same is true of the sciences. This is why one can find scientific literature on the ways in which positions required of particular religions must be wrong (including the soul, intelligent design/creationism, a finely-tuned universe or multiverse requiring a theistic creator, etc.). It is, of course, quite rare to find scientific literature purporting that religious beliefs are empirically supported, even when it comes to the existence of a creator god there such literature still exists and by "scientific literature" I don't mean literature written by scientists but both written by and for scientists, such as e.g.,
Amoroso, R., & Rauscher, E. (2009). The Holographic Anthropic Multiverse: Formalizing the Complex Geometry of Reality (Series on Knots and Everything Vol. 43). World Scientific.
 
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