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Is Science The Top Reason People Abandon Spiritual Pursuits?

PureX

Veteran Member
Care to elaborate?
In the story, Jesus was a Jew, and he remained a Jew. He had no intention of starting a new religion. He was simply revealing a new way of understanding and living spiritually to both Jews of non-Jews. To his fellow Jews he admonished them to remain Jewish and to follow the traditions and proscriptions accordingly. But to no-Jews he did not suggest that they need to do any of that. Because Jews then and now are not evangelical. They do not and did not believe anyone has to be or become Jewish to find his/her rightful place with God. He believed and taught that the way to God is the way of the spirit, not of any particular religion.

This, of course, was viewed as blasphemy by the high priests of his own religion because it meant that they were not the necessary 'stand-ins' between the people and God that they pretended to be, and that they were milking for their own advantage. They even had Jesus killed because of this.

But then later on, the religion lovers created a whole new religion based on what they thought Jesus was teaching them. But they got it wrong because Jesus was never teaching a new religion. And he was never excluding anyone from the spiritual path, religious or not. But people being people and religions being what they are, this new religion began excluding anyone that didn't buy into it's elitist and evangelical dogma. And so on and on it goes. The Jewish religionists killed Jesus, and the "Christian" religionists have been trying to kill the universal revelation and promise of Christ's salvation ever since. They want to own it. They want to be the sole purveyors of divine salvation so they can use it to make everyone else dance to their tune.

Human organizations become tribal, and self-protective. And self-promoting, and if they're given any real power, they will become oppressive and abusive and downright evil. And this is going to be especially true of any organization that thinks it has been sanctioned by God. So when people begin to see this, and understand it, they will stay away from those organizations. And rightly so in my opinion.
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
Science has to follow evidence and can't make judgments beyond the evidence. That measn humans can ask questions that can't be answered by science. If the person really, really wants an answer they can turn to religions. Of course religions don't follow facts or evidence, just their traditions of belief. These tradtions of belief can soothe anxiety and make them feel as if there is some meaning beyond nature. Not all humans need this emotional comfort, and they can cope with life's hardship via their own wits. When peovle turn to religion to cope it tells us something about the person, not about religions. Any dogma will help create emotional stability in those who seek it.

Oh, feel free to answer my questions in post 30, if able.
People don’t follow religions because they can’t cope with life’s hardship via their own wits. Unfortunately, you have a warped sense of why people follow a religion.
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
In my case it wasn't science that led me away from religion, but religion that led me away from religion. More specifically: being raised with and immersed in christian apologetics. The real world vs. the idea of what the real world is via christian apologetics doesn't line up

Not saying Christianity or any religions out there aren't honest in they way they approach or try to define the real world, but the upbringing I've had has definitely shown a light on the lies and manipulation that are possible via apologetics
Sorry you had a bad experience wit religion.
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
In the story, Jesus was a Jew, and he remained a Jew. He had no intention of starting a new religion. He was simply revealing a new way of understanding and living spiritually to both Jews of non-Jews. To his fellow Jews he admonished them to remain Jewish and to follow the traditions and proscriptions accordingly. But to no-Jews he did not suggest that they need to do any of that. Because Jews then and now are not evangelical. They do not and did not believe anyone has to be or become Jewish to find his/her rightful place with God. He believed and taught that the way to God is the way of the spirit, not of any particular religion.

This, of course, was viewed as blasphemy by the high priests of his own religion because it meant that they were not the necessary 'stand-ins' between the people and God that they pretended to be, and that they were milking for their own advantage. They even had Jesus killed because of this.

But then later on, the religion lovers created a whole new religion based on what they thought Jesus was teaching them. But they got it wrong because Jesus was never teaching a new religion. And he was never excluding anyone from the spiritual path, religious or not. But people being people and religions being what they are, this new religion began excluding anyone that didn't buy into it's elitist and evangelical dogma. And so on and on it goes. The Jewish religionists killed Jesus, and the "Christian" religionists have been trying to kill the universal revelation and promise of Christ's salvation ever since. They want to own it. They want to be the sole purveyors of divine salvation so they can use it to make everyone else dance to their tune.

Human organizations become tribal, and self-protective. And self-promoting, and if they're given any real power, they will become oppressive and abusive and downright evil. And this is going to be especially true of any organization that thinks it has been sanctioned by God. So when people begin to see this, and understand it, they will stay away from those organizations. And rightly so in my opinion.
Well, people like Jesus. What can I say. Hopefully most people will begin to see something else and understand it, then embrace it instead of staying away. A lot of people come and find peace and goodness. Unfortunately, some come and don’t find that. It ain’t religions fault. It’s the person‘s fault.
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
It's not jaded my ideas on religion or made me feel negatively about it, but it's definitely opened my eyes as to the ways manipulation manifests itself whether religion is involved or not
Yeah, with apologetics one shouldn’t have to defend why Christianity is the truth. It’s a waste of time actually. No one is ever going to change anybody’s mind. It’s hard enough changing your own self. What makes anybody think they’re gonna change anyone else?
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
Yes and no.

For better or worse (personally, I'd say worse) there's a lot of ignorance about the contribution established religion has made to the development of the sciences throughout history. The main reason the West is a literate culture at all - a baseline requisite of a culture that can do science - is because of the influence of Christianity, an inherently literacy-based religion given the central importance of the Bible. The push or literacy largely came out of wanting the peasants to be able to actually read the sacred text of Christianity. Add to this the rich tradition of the more well-educated clergy being schooled in the classics - philosophy in particular which was the antecedent to the sciences and modern science today is still grounded in it - and pretty much all the scientific revolutionaries were some flavor of Christian wanting to study what they interpreted as "God's creation." But these stories don't get told because it's all the rage these days to pretend that science and "religion" (simplifying religion to some particular type of Christianity, of course) are at odds with one another.

I'm different in the sense I'm not Christian. But not in the sense of religion and science having a long history together.
I think they are at odds with one another when one abandons all of their religious and spiritual pursuits in favor of scientific ones.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Well, people like Jesus. What can I say. Hopefully most people will begin to see something else and understand it, then embrace it instead of staying away.
They can do that without religion. And many do. Most of the people that leave religion do not become atheists. It's isn't God that they are rejecting. It's religion.
A lot of people come and find peace and goodness. Unfortunately, some come and don’t find that.
Because that is not what the religious groups they turned to are offering.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
What do you think is the top reason people leave religion and spiritual paths?

Having joined them for the wrong reasons in the first place. Those being usually some combination of actual need for social and material support; peer pressure; hope for miraculous intervention of some sort; and having been raised into the creed from an early age without having much of an ability to refuse it.


I think it’s science. However, I don’t think science is intentionally trying to lead people away from these things. I think it’s just happening. The only other reason I can think of would be killing in the name of religion. Are there more you can think of?

If scientific learning leads people away from some so-called spiritual path "just because", it is a solid mark against those paths. A religion is supposed to enable itself to deal with truth and learning.
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
Having joined them for the wrong reasons in the first place. Those being usually some combination of actual need for social and material support; peer pressure; hope for miraculous intervention of some sort; and having been raised into the creed from an early age without having much of an ability to refuse it.




If scientific learning leads people away from some so-called spiritual path "just because", it is a solid mark against those paths. A religion is supposed to enable itself to deal with truth and learning.
Christianity has enabled itself to deal with scientific matters and many people leave anyway in pursuit of scientific matters.
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
Minimally.



Many - probably many more - people leave Christianity out of simple lack of interest as well. Very often they are not even interested in stating clearly that they are uninterested.
Minimally? What hasn’t it accepted from science and knowledge?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Minimally? What hasn’t it accepted from science and knowledge?

Large, arguably mainstream segments of Christianity actively resist acceptance of the known basics of biology and cosmology, often leading to educational damage and epistemological incapacity.

The resistance of Christianity to accept basic Anthropology is literally a matter of historical record.

In more recent years it has been actively harming Medicine as well.
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
Religion isn't as important as it once was because we can explain things that only religion/god/supernatural once could and it's clear to me that society can function quite comfortably without religion, and better as far as I'm concerned, just look at Western society....
Science has never been able to explain why the process of cell renewal slows down over time leading to old age and death.

Scientists have also not been able to discover whether there really are invisible spirits that interact with the visible physical environment. They also do not know how life originated, or where the DNA information came from in the first place.

Scientists do not know why the visible physical Universe came into being, or why it happened when it did and not before. They also cannot know what was there before that time.

Scientists do not know whether living beings that have died can be recovered or not, because although they may have some notion of how we are physically organized, they cannot rationalize how our consciousness works.

Scientists do not know how human behavior can be controlled. Although everyone is against violence, it would be great if there were some way to eradicate it completely from human societies.

Scientists do not know many things. And it seems that certain things will never be known, because as time passes, some truths become more and more distant from our reach, either in time from the past or in the ever-expanding outer space.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I think they are at odds with one another when one abandons all of their religious and spiritual pursuits in favor of scientific ones.
To me, there is not really a distinction between the two. Or rather, the one is subsumed (or part) of the other. Practicing science is a way of being religious. This is especially the case for nature-based traditions like mine where learning about and understanding the natural world (which also happens to be considered divine and sacred) is central.
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
Large, arguably mainstream segments of Christianity actively resist acceptance of the known basics of biology and cosmology, often leading to educational damage and epistemological incapacity.

The resistance of Christianity to accept basic Anthropology is literally a matter of historical record.

In more recent years it has been actively harming Medicine as well.
Most Christians accept evolution and the big bang
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think organized religion turns more people away from a spiritual path then science does.
Agreed, if one means the zealous Abrahamics. One such believer wrote, "we are living in an age of spiritual darkness." This was my response:

"I think that zealous Abrahamics are, but the polytheists, the monotheistic humanists, and mindful atheists aren't. The zealous Abrahamics are the antithesis of spiritual as I define it. Spirituality is a state of mind one attains through connection with earth and the life on it, often accompanied by a sense of mystery, awe, and gratitude. The Abrahamic's worldview does violence to that. It deflects attention from the here and now to imagined realms, spirits, and afterlives. It tears that vital connection to our world. Spiritualty isn't about believing in spirits. Living your life like you're waiting at a bus stop to be transported somewhere else better than earth while imagining spirits and their commandments is as far from spiritual as one can be as I understand and use the word. One becomes as alienated and disconnected from Mother Nature as possible."

Contrast that with the pagans, who have the kind of spiritual experience with nature I just described. They haven't invented afterlives and other worlds like heaven to divert their gaze and thoughts from nature, and their gods seem like symbols to me, but maybe some think of them literally as nature pixies of some sort. I have a similar experience without a pantheon of natural minor gods.

And a really nice aspect of non-Abrahamic religions is because they don't have angry gods issuing commands, they don't have an unnatural system of values including a host of bigotries, and they don't consider other people's lives their business.

The contrast with the zealous Abrahamist is the monotheistic humanist, most being educated Christians. They still rely on reason, empiricism, and their consciences rather than ideas believed by faith (apart from a god belief) and received morals. The reject the bigotries, the political manipulation, and the antiscience anti-intellectualism that comes with zealotry.
What do you think is the top reason people leave religion and spiritual paths?
I can tell you why I did, which is a different answer from why Americans are leaving religion, which means Christianity there.

I left the religion because I could see that it was untrue and didn't keep its promises. This resulted from finding a charismatic preacher first try, who could convince me that I was feeling the Holy Spirit as we sang and clapped and smiled and laughed and (others) soke "in tongues."

These were my Army years, and I became involved because my angst level was high, first from nearly flunking out of university due to lack of self-discipline (I saw my future as a physician slipping away), which is why I enlisted - to learn that discipline and get a little older before trying again - but was exacerbated by being in the Army and being so far from home. So, I tried me some Jesus, and for about two years, I was ecstatic a couple times a week (I went Wednesdays as well as Sundays).

Then I was discharged, returned home, and over the next couple of years, tried about a half dozen other congregations led by unaspiring clergy. Eventually, I understood that what I had been feeling wasn't the Holy Spirit - either than r it stayed in Maryland when I returned to California. I might have looked for a substitute religion, but by that time, I was done with believing by faith.

Regarding national trends, it's multifactorial:
  • The appearance of best sellers and the rise of the Internet have given humanists a platform (like RF) and made atheism much more respectable.
  • The rising numbers of people self-identifying as atheist or irreligious makes joining them less of a social risk
  • Scandal after scandal has flown by since the rise of the televangelists in the 70's continuing today, right up to the church pedophilia cover up and the failed Palin and Duggar examples of Christian family values. Jim Jones and David Koresh didn't help the church any.
  • The entertainment media mostly depict the church and clergy as hypocritical, ineffectual, or irrelevant.
  • People are put off by Christian homophobia and hell theology.
  • People are put off the religious incursion into government and people's freedoms. The Handmaid's Tale look isn't a good one for the church.
  • Science and evolution have made atheism more tenable - your suggestion.
  • People find the church and religion increasingly less relevant in daily life. It doesn't meet their needs.
  • Removal of the church, state-led prayer, and creationism from public schools
  • And most recently, the rise of theocratic tendencies.
I think it’s science.
It's in my list, too.
The core idea of Jesus returning with a new earth is easy for me to accept. It’s easy for most Christians I’ve talked with to accept. Oh well. To each their own.
Thats because you're willing to believe by faith. I'm not, which makes that belief, which I once shared with you, impossible for me now.
Most Christians are highly intelligent people.
The most intelligent Christians are the ones who can reason well and are well educated, both of which are barriers to theism for many. And many believers are very poorly educated and unable to process information efficiently. They believe uncritically, which dilutes any native intelligence.

Also, growing up in such faiths stunts intellectual and moral development in many. If you're still afraid of death as an adult, it's probably because you've never faced and accepted the likelihood of your own mortality. If you think atheists are depraved hedonists and homosexuals an abomination to your god, or that their lives are your business, or you're afraid of hell, you've failed to develop properly.

If you correct that young enough like I did, you still might have the necessary cognitive dissonance and critical thinking skills to burrow out of that. It's difficult and disorienting, but still possible. A couple of decades later, that become much more difficult if not impossible. The experience is very analogous to quitting smoking. It's difficult and takes a year or more before you're free of thoughts of cigarettes, and for those who don't try until 60 or older, often impossible.

How are you going to leave your religion if you're still afraid of death or hell, and if your social life is centered around your religion such that rejecting it will lead to shunning and ostracism? Are you going to start all over then like I did in my late twenties? Not likely.
I think most Christians understand it as knowledge and the ones who don’t, stop being Christian.
You have a different definition of knowledge than I do. I don't include thing believed by faith or intuition as knowledge. Only demonstrably correct ideas earn that title - the kinds of ideas that allow one to predict outcomes, like a recipe or how to tie a tie - ideas that lead to anticipated and desired outcomes.
If you can’t grasp the Christian belief that Jesus died, was risen from the grave, is now in heaven and will return, then I can’t explain it to you. I guess some people get it while others do not.
It's common for people whose ideas aren't believed to assume that they weren't understood.
People don’t follow religions because they can’t cope with life’s hardship via their own wits.
My opinion on this is above. Most people get their religion as children, which can keep them in a juvenile state of dependence on a father figure who gives orders and rewards or punishes, fearful of death, ignorant, unable to think critically, and into magical thinking. As we grow, that largely disappears for those with no religion as well as for some with religion, but for too many, they remain in that juvenile state to a greater or lesser degree.

Neotony is a term from biology to refer to juvenilization, as has occurred with dogs that remain puppylike into adulthood (isn't a golden retriever a large, adult puppy?) It's also occurred in humans on a physiological level, but I'm using the term here to refer to just intellectual and moral development.
with apologetics one shouldn’t have to defend why Christianity is the truth.
That's what Christian apologetics is: "What is apologetics? Apologetics is quite literally defense of the faith; the Greek word apologia means “defense” as a lawyer gives at a trial."
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Getting more informed about how the world works. How life began etc.
While it's no irrelevant, I'm not sure you can directly and entirely blame that on science as such but more the general human curiosity (sometimes discouraged or actively preventing in some faiths of course). I'm not convinced the average person's understanding of such things is especially scientific in practice. Most people (in the developed world at least) have a general understanding of the mainstream conclusions on them though, yet many remain religious.

Interestingly, some religions have subtly shifted their doctrine over the decades to try to account for temporal understandings or perceptions of the world (factual, as well as moral, social and practical), allowing their followers to remain faithful without too many blatant logical contradictions. That said, they are probably still as divergent from mainstream understanding, which is one of the reasons they often rely on faith.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
I can’t speak for other religions, but the story of Jesus Christ is pretty awesome and full of great wisdom in my opinion. I don’t think it turns people away from spiritual paths.
So is the story of Robin Hood and any number of mythical superpowerful hero figures. education leads one to recognize the parallels in inspirational storytelling and recognition of fictional accounts. That and the Bible is chock full of impossible scenarios that make it obvious that it is a moral story, not history.
 
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