Is the Abrahamic God Moral?

[McBell]

The OT especially is filled with a number of seeming and actual contradictions. This is consistent with a blog written by man trying to justify his actions. It is NOT consistent with a single author (God) who uses men as merely a physical typewriter. One only need to read your most recent posts to agree that this seems to be what you believe. You believe him to be responsible for a FLOOD as well as some undisclosed punishment for what our parents did. If you would like to make a couple of lists for us to go by it would be helpful. The first list could be what you think man is responsible for and the second would be those heinous things you blame God for. That way we don't have to guess. Thanks in advance!

Interesting.
So what cause the flood again?
Who punished Adam and Eve?

You are to fond of the pick and choose method.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Interesting.
So what cause the flood again?

What causes most floods? A lot of rain.

Who punished Adam and Eve?

It wasn't me, I swear! I make it a point to never punish allegories for the entire human race!

You are to fond of the pick and choose method.

The point of using our God given intelligence is be able to distinguish between allegory and reality. It's not my fault that you refuse to use that capacity.

 

[McBell]

What causes most floods? A lot of rain. It wasn't me, I swear! I make it a point to never punish allegories for the entire human race! The point of using our God given intelligence is be able to distinguish between allegory and reality. It's not my fault that you refuse to use that capacity.

Like I said, pick and choose.

 

[Popeyesays]

What caused THE FLOOD?

The best bet is that the basin of the Black Sea was filled by a gradual breakdown of the natural dyke which held out the Mediterranean. Such an event happened around 30-25,000 years before the Hebrews were thinking about what God might be. Such a catastrophic event was bound to have made an impression on the people of region and the tales of its enormity would have lived on and on in the folk tales from the region.

Regards,
Scott

 

[McBell]

What caused THE FLOOD?

The best bet is that the basin of the Black Sea was filled by a gradual breakdown of the natural dyke which held out the Mediterranean. Such an event happened around 30-25,000 years before the Hebrews were thinking about what God might be. Such a catastrophic event was bound to have made an impression on the people of region and the tales of its enormity would have lived on and on in the folk tales from the region.

Regards,
Scott

Now you are going to be accused of stifling God.

 

[Popeyesays]

Now you are going to be accused of stifling God.

Heck, it's happened to me before. I survived.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Scuba Pete]

What caused THE FLOOD?

The best bet is that the basin of the Black Sea was filled by a gradual breakdown of the natural dyke which held out the Mediterranean. Such an event happened around 30-25,000 years before the Hebrews were thinking about what God might be. Such a catastrophic event was bound to have made an impression on the people of region and the tales of its enormity would have lived on and on in the folk tales from the region.

Regards,
Scott

Actually, that event has been set to have happened 7.100 years ago. They have found a house at 330FSW in the Black Sea. Black Sea slowly gives up ancient secrets - Science - MSNBC.com They have also uncovered some pretty intact sunken ships from the same time. The Black Sea was a fresh water lake and it's cold combined with a distinct lack of oxygen at depth has really preserved them. Is this the flood referred to in the Bible? Who knows? It took out a lot of the primitives though. It left a mark on society.

 

[gnomon]

Is the Abrahamic God moral? Why or why not?

Sure.

If one accepts that the Abrahamic God exists and is the arbiter of morality then it is given that the God is moral and that all morality is dependent upon the whim of that God.

Of course, if we do not accept the existence of the Abrahamic God in its many incarnations then we could posit that the God is not moral. Which would be ridiculous because we posited the God doesn't exist.

Cheese and crackers are good.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Bible, Koran yep, that's what I'm talking about I studied them both for over 3 years in university so I'm not giving an opinion I'm telling you what they say. If you are asking me for an example I suggest you read them I would need a web site of my own to site what is "stone evil" in those books. I can give you some links to web sites if you like?

Ok, but are you judging them against what you feel is moral or against the cultures that they were created in? What of the evolution of the religion from Vengeful to Forgiving. What are you using as your example of what is moral? The teaching of Buddha? What about the possiblity that Christ studied under Buddha and that is the reason for his attempt to direct the Jewish faith towards a more forgiving and loving religion?

 

[Somkid]

Ok, but are you judging them against what you feel is moral or against the cultures that they were created in? What of the evolution of the religion from Vengeful to Forgiving. What are you using as your example of what is moral? The teaching of Buddha? What about the possiblity that Christ studied under Buddha and that is the reason for his attempt to direct the Jewish faith towards a more forgiving and loving religion?

I'll start with the easy question. Did Jesus ever study under the Buddha no for 3 very obvious reasons #1 they spoke 2 different languages and Jesus would never have had the time to learn, #2 the distance between them was too large for the time period and #3 and the most obvious the Buddha lived 551 years before Jesus was born.

I'm not judging the texts I am very simply reading them in black and white and in 99% of the civilized world you would be thrown in jail for the offenses that are advocated in these texts. I thinks morels for the most part are common sense don't kill, don't steal, do not kidnap or enslave anyone, etc. we can all figure that out for ourselves I don't need a religious text to tell me right from wrong Buddhist or otherwise.

As far as "the evolution of the religion from Vengeful to Forgiving" goes vengeful behavior is no longer tolerated in our modern civilizations thus they have had to turn to forgiving or risk being debunked as myth.

 

[doppelganger]

I'll start with the easy question. Did Jesus ever study under the Buddha no for 3 very obvious reasons #1 they spoke 2 different languages and Jesus would never have had the time to learn, #2 the distance between them was too large for the time period and #3 and the most obvious the Buddha lived 551 years before Jesus was born.

There were Buddhist communities in Alexandria, Egypt pre-Christianity. Perhaps the monastic "Therapeutae" that Eusebius considered the first Christian community in Alexandria were of Theraveda. The timing and location is right for some interesting syncretism. Just speculating of course, but what if . . .

Philo wrote extensively about the Therapeutae, and of course Philo is a major link in the philosophical development of the Logos (i.e. "The Word" from John 1).

 

[doppelganger]

More on the Therapeutae and the possibility of Buddhists in Alexandria being a part of the syncretic melting pot that produced Christianity.

Therapeutae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[kai]

Not from Muslim perspective.

According to them, every single person is born a Muslim. It doesn't matter if you was born into Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist or atheist family.

When someone is converting to Islam, they don't call it "converting", but rather say it is "re-converting" or something like this, as if they are rejoining their original religion they are born to.

The way they see it, Islam predates their prophet, Muhammad. They see all the prophets (and leaders and kings, like David and Solomon) in the Judaic-Christian scriptures to be Muslims.

This is the way Muslims justify that Islam have always exist, and what is found in bible, tanakh and torah to be corrupted by men, and Muhammad is just realigning to past religions and scriptures back to the "original" way, ie. Islam.

Sound like propaganda to me. And that because it is propaganda. It is meant to pull Jews and Christians from their own religions to join (or according to them, rejoin) their Islamic religion.

I've encounter this type of thinking from people at islam.com, another forum.

thats is right, i wonder if the mormons are still baptising everyone as well because we could be covered on two bases there

 

[kai]

Thats just stupid and over the top.

sorry mate all muslim, you are a muslim the hindu gods are not gods at all but parts of the one god and must return to your original religion Islam

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

As far as "the evolution of the religion from Vengeful to Forgiving" goes vengeful behavior is no longer tolerated in our modern civilizations thus they have had to turn to forgiving or risk being debunked as myth.

Actually the opposite is true. When religion turned towards forgiveness and love, then society followed along. May I suggest you read the Great Transformation by Karen Armstrong.



In the book she explores the Axial Age, the period between 800BC and 200BC when the worlds major religions turned from blood and death to peace and forgiveness.

NPR interview of Karen Armstrong discussing the Great Transformation
Bill Moyers Interviews Karen Armstrong

 

[kmkemp]

I thinks morels for the most part are common sense don't kill, don't steal, do not kidnap or enslave anyone, etc. we can all figure that out for ourselves I don't need a religious text to tell me right from wrong Buddhist or otherwise.

The question you're missing here is the why.

 

[doppelganger]

The question you're missing here is the why.

That's the question that makes atrocities palatable. I'm better off without it.

 

[Popeyesays]

The Qur'an explains that Abraham was not a Jew or a Christian but a Muslim. Why is that term used? Because Muslim means "one who submits to the will of God). al-Islam means "The Submission".

Abraham demonstrably submitted to the will of God when He shattered the idols and when He offered up His son and God demurred to take the sacrificie. By that act of submission He is a Muslim, whether He knew what the word was or not. Jesus, David, Solomon, Noah, Lot, Salih, Hud all submitted to the will of God and therefore by that act, their status is "Muslim" "One Who Submits to the Will of God".

By implication it is possible to be a "Muslim" and never know there was such a person as Muhammed.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Scuba Pete]

Just call me the infidellic Muslim them!

 

[gnostic]

The Qur'an explains that Abraham was not a Jew or a Christian but a Muslim. Why is that term used? Because Muslim means "one who submits to the will of God). al-Islam means "The Submission".

Abraham demonstrably submitted to the will of God when He shattered the idols and when He offered up His son and God demurred to take the sacrificie. By that act of submission He is a Muslim, whether He knew what the word was or not. Jesus, David, Solomon, Noah, Lot, Salih, Hud all submitted to the will of God and therefore by that act, their status is "Muslim" "One Who Submits to the Will of God".

By implication it is possible to be a "Muslim" and never know there was such a person as Muhammed.

That's semantic, as well as trying to force meaning that didn't exist until Muhammad's time. It still sounds like self-justification on Muhammad and Muslims parts, so that they can be identified with the biblical figures.

The Romans did the same thing, when they linked their ancestor of Romulus, founder of Rome, to the Trojan hero, Aeneas, especially in the case with Julius Caesar and Augustus, who said their family, Julian, to be the direct line of Ascanus, otherwise known as Iulus, son of Aeneas. Geoffrey of Monmouth said that the Welsh-speaking Britons, including Arthur, also come directly through Aeneas, via Brut, grandson of Aeneas and the eponym of Britain. The Norse Aesir gods were also link to Troy.

Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus of Epeirus done the same with the Greek hero Achilles, through his son, Neoptolemus.

Many places around the Mediterranean, link their ancestry to Heracles, in Sparta, Argos and Messenia. A number of Italian cities have all said they have Heracles' blood in them, even those on the island of Sardinia.

What Muhammad has done is not unusual, nor unique. There are no record of Muhammad being link to Abraham and Ishmael, except through Islamic literature, which I can't take any more seriously than I could take the bible or Torah seriously, because it was written after all of the above is known to him.