Is the abrahamic God omniscient, and does that conflict with free will?

[serp777]

Does the Abrahamic God have an infinite amount of knowledge about everything? I believe he does since the abrahamic faiths frequently claim that he knows the past, present, and future. They also claim he is infinitely righteous and good, which would require him to have infinite knowledge about himself--he would have to know an infinite amount of truths and falsehoods about himself.

This begs the question of whether or not free will exists. If God knows the past, present, and future, then he also knew the past, present, and future when he created us. This would mean that our lives are entirely deterministic since knowing the future requires one to know all the events that lead to that future, which implies that those events already existed at the time we were create and that we have no choice but to follow them.

 

[Buttercup]

This begs the question of whether or not free will exists. If God knows the past, present, and future, then he also knew the past, present, and future when he created us. This would mean that our lives are entirely deterministic since knowing the future requires one to know all the events that lead to that future, which implies that those events already existed at the time we were create and that we have no choice but to follow them.

Ahhh, but the difference is that WE lowly humans do not know the future and have limited information about the present. Therefore, in God's grand plan we DO have free will. At least, that's what I was taught as a Christian.

 

[serp777]

Ahhh, but the difference is that WE lowly humans do not know the future and have limited information about the present. Therefore, in God's grand plan we DO have free will. At least, that's what I was taught as a Christian.

But technically the plan is all laid out and already exists. So that means free will is just an illusion from our limited perspective. We can't not follow the plan. GOd then condemns sinners for following HIS plan. That is not very perfect in my submission.

 

[Buttercup]

But technically the plan is all laid out and already exists. So that means free will is just an illusion from our limited perspective. GOd then condemns sinners for following HIS plan. That is not very perfect in my submission.

I agree. Also, what kind of creator knows that a person he created will rape and kill a 5 year old (he also created) and allow it to happen? But, I'm taking your thread off topic.

A Christian will say that because WE are not capable of knowing the future and we only have access to our own choices and actions in the now, that is the definition of free will given by God. He's the master planner.

 

[serp777]

I agree. Also, what kind of creator knows that a person he created will rape and kill a 5 year old (he also created) and allow it to happen? But, I'm taking your thread off topic.

A Christian will say that because WE are not capable of knowing the future and we only have access to our own choices and actions in the now, that is the definition of free will given by God. He's the master planner.

Right, it's like God needs sin; sin seems to be essential, arbitrary, and his focus. His plan requires significantly more sin than it does righteousness.

He seriously couldn't design a world that was mostly righteous and only had a little sin? I thought he was perfect and omniscient and all powerful?

 

[Huey09]

I like to say God only looks at things that would seriously F up the earth. Like a nuclear war or an asteroid. Maybe he'll also help us deal with climate change in that he'll put everyone who doubted it underwater. I like to also think that we human have vague multiple fates. Such as "Hilter will be a name remembered in history" He could have been a mediocre artist who displayed the struggle of German poverty making him great in hindsight. He could have tried an honorable and just approach to politics and been remembered as an outspoken political official who took Germany out of its crippling depression and garnered many world leaders respect of socialism. All would have been very memorable in their own way. He instead chose to be a remembered as a genocidal, egotistical monster who still leaves Germany in a bad light decades later.

Does that any sense? I'll be glad to clarify or improve it.

 

[Buttercup]

Right, it's like God needs sin; sin seems to be essential, arbitrary, and his focus. His plan requires significantly more sin than it does righteousness.

Exactly. It's like he's the main design boss and we can never get to his righteous level (the win) by defeating all the "sin" bombs and traps thrown at us. Therefore, God is unbeatable and he obviously knows this. To complicate matters, he throw us a caveat hack via Christianity - we can become righteous if we believe in this savior he sends down. Bam. You win the game. He's still boss though.

 

[Skwim]

Does the Abrahamic God have an infinite amount of knowledge about everything? I believe he does since the abrahamic faiths frequently claim that he knows the past, present, and future. They also claim he is infinitely righteous and good, which would require him to have infinite knowledge about himself--he would have to know an infinite amount of truths and falsehoods about himself.

Why does being infinitely righteous and good require infinite knowledge? And "about himself"? And, of course, the claim that god, at least the Abrahamic version, is infinitely righteous and good is certainly false. He's reportedly done some pretty despicable stuff.

This begs the question of whether or not free will exists. If God knows the past, present, and future, then he also knew the past, present, and future when he created us. This would mean that our lives are entirely deterministic since knowing the future requires one to know all the events that lead to that future, which implies that those events already existed at the time we were create and that we have no choice but to follow them.

Which pretty much sums up the argument for determinism based on god's omniscience.

 

[Thruve]

Why does being infinitely righteous and good require infinite knowledge? And "about himself"? And, of course, the claim that god, at least the Abrahamic version, is infinitely righteous and good is certainly false. He's reportedly done some pretty despicable stuff.

Which pretty much sums the argument for determinism based on god's omniscience.

Not necessarily >.>
Atleast the aspect of determinism that states we don't have free will.

 

[Skwim]

I agree. Also, what kind of creator knows that a person he created will rape and kill a 5 year old (he also created) and allow it to happen? But, I'm taking your thread off topic.

A Christian will say that because WE are not capable of knowing the future and we only have access to our own choices and actions in the now, that is the definition of free will given by God. He's the master planner.

What is the source of this information?

I like to say God only looks at things that would seriously F up the earth. Like a nuclear war or an asteroid. Maybe he'll also help us deal with climate change in that he'll put everyone who doubted it underwater. I like to also think that we human have vague multiple fates. Such as "Hilter will be a name remembered in history" He could have been a mediocre artist who displayed the struggle of German poverty making him great in hindsight. He could have tried an honorable and just approach to politics and been remembered as an outspoken political official who took Germany out of its crippling depression and garnered many world leaders respect of socialism. All would have been very memorable in their own way. He instead chose to be a remembered as a genocidal, egotistical monster who still leaves Germany in a bad light decades later.

Does that any sense? I'll be glad to clarify or improve it.

Make sense? Nope. You'd have to present evidence that god "only looks at things that would seriously F up the earth. Like a nuclear war or an asteroid." So, what ya got? As for your speculations, I think we can safely regard them as nothing more than that.

 

[Skwim]

Not necessarily >.>
Atleast the aspect of determinism that states we don't have free will.

Which pretty much sums up the argument for determinism based on god's omniscience.

Not quite understanding you here, so, what would you add to this summation?

 

[Buttercup]

What is the source of this information?

The Christian bible. Read it cover to cover a few dozen times and you'll come to the same conclusion. It's very much emphasized in Christendom that humans have free will. No question.

 

[Skwim]

The Christian bible. Read it cover to cover a few dozen times and you'll come to the same conclusion. It's very much emphasized in Christendom that humans have free will. No question.

Not arguing that the Bible doesn't strongly imply that freewill is the operating paradigm of human acts, just that god defines freewill as:

"WE are not capable of knowing the future and we only have access to our own choices and actions in the now."
​

SO, let's stick to the issue here and get on with the showing us the specific scripture(s) (if that's the source of god's definition) wherein the above is his definition for freewill.

 

[Huey09]

What is the source of this information?

Make sense? Nope. You'd have to present evidence that god "only looks at things that would seriously F up the earth. Like a nuclear war or an asteroid." So, what ya got? As for your speculations, I think we can safely regard them as nothing more than that.

Don't have to be so hostile. I'll show myself out

 

[Buttercup]

Not arguing that the Bible doesn't strongly imply that freewill is the operating paradigm of human acts, just that god defines freewill as:

"WE are not capable of knowing the future and we only have access to our own choices and actions in the now."
​

SO, let's stick to the issue here and get on with the showing us the specific scripture(s) (if that's the source of god's definition) wherein the above is his definition for freewill.

Good grief. It's a paraphrased sentence and you need to allow some free reign. I have no desire to dig up scripture. Have you ever been a Christian? If you have ever practiced Christianity, you'd know that my sentence is true. I'm not a walking/talking bible.

Let's continue on with the OP instead of the semantically oppressed direction you want to take this thread.

 

[jtartar]

Does the Abrahamic God have an infinite amount of knowledge about everything? I believe he does since the abrahamic faiths frequently claim that he knows the past, present, and future. They also claim he is infinitely righteous and good, which would require him to have infinite knowledge about himself--he would have to know an infinite amount of truths and falsehoods about himself.

This begs the question of whether or not free will exists. If God knows the past, present, and future, then he also knew the past, present, and future when he created us. This would mean that our lives are entirely deterministic since knowing the future requires one to know all the events that lead to that future, which implies that those events already existed at the time we were create and that we have no choice but to follow them.

Serp777,
The Almighty God, whose Proper Name is Jehovah, is indeed, omniscient. This term means that God KNOWS everything. This does not mean that He knows all things that have NOT, even been done, there is really nothing to know, since nothing has been done.
Now, Jehovah God does, at times, look forward, and foreordain certain things that He knows will happen, mainly because He has PURPOSED for the things to happen. This is different from what many people believe. The truth is God does not look forward to see what every individual person will do.
Think about what is recorded in the Holy Scriptures, God has felt sorry about the things that His creation turned out, Gen 6:5-7. If God had known what was going to happen, why would He feel bad about happened??
This same idea is recorded throughout the scriptures.
One real interesting scripture is recorded at Job 14:15. It seems that God misses His servants. God can remember all the things that everyone has done during their life, but God wants to see what His faithful servants, will do in the future. God has not looked into the future of all people.

 

[Buttercup]

God has not looked into the future of all people.

If God has not looked into the future of all people, why not?

 

[Thruve]

Not quite understanding you here, so, what would you add to this summation?

An omninescent god knowing of past and present at any given time doesn't imply that we don't have free will. All it boils down to is that, atleast to me, a choice had to of been made somewhere in the timeline in order for him to see it. In other words, had I not chosen to reply to your post, an omninescent god would have already known before hand the choice that I made. Determinism is irrelevant. Now, the factors of determinism that can and often do lead us to make choices that would otherwise seem like an illusion is a different argument. But an omninescent god alone doesn't affirm determinism.

 

[Skwim]

Good grief. It's a paraphrased sentence and you need to allow some free reign.

I would ask what passage it's paraphrased from, but know I wouldn't get any further than I have here. Thing is, if you don't mean what you say then don't say it. How can people have a reasonable conversation if we can't rely on the words and statements others offer up? If we're supposed to ignore some of what you say I suggest you put such passages in red, or use some other signal.

I have no desire to dig up scripture.

Obviously.

Have you ever been a Christian?

I have.

If you have ever practiced Christianity, you'd know that my sentence is true. I'm not a walking/talking bible.

No I don't know that it's true at all. I have NEVER come across god's definition of freewill. In fact I even Googled the matter and came up empty.

Let's continue on with the OP instead of the semantically oppressed direction you want to take this thread.

Sorry for the corner you painted yourself into, and your inability to clarify your claims, but they are of YOUR doing, not mine. :slap:

 

[Buttercup]

It's frustrating that you are having problems with this sentence:

"A Christian will say that because WE are not capable of knowing the future and we only have access to our own choices and actions in the now, that is the definition of free will given by God. He's the master planner."

What EXACTLY are you looking for as proof? If I give you scripture that "points" to the definition of free will is that good enough or are you wanting an affidavit from God saying he gave us free will? I need your parameters for proof according to Christianity.