Is the abrahamic God omniscient, and does that conflict with free will?

[WhatGod]

Does the Abrahamic God have an infinite amount of knowledge about everything?

Of course not. The concept was developed to make him seem better for dick waving.

But let's just assume that the Abrahamic God is omniscient. Does that conflict with free will?

No. It only means he is infinitely bored and shouldn't have read ahead.

It only conflicts with free will if he acts.

As an example I can see my kids about to do something dumb long before they have any inkling of the consequences. But I only interfere with their freewill if I intervene.

 

[WhatGod]

Sure it does. The implication of god's omnicience is that at a particular time in the future you cannot "choose" to eat a banana when he has seen you will eat an apple. You have no freewill to do so. You HAVE to eat the apple.

You are putting the cart before the horse. If you choose to eat the banana he saw that you would eat the banana. If you choose to eat the apple; he saw that you would eat the apple. In your timeline you have freewill, but he is not in your time line and can see what happened in your future.

The only impact is if he interacts with you to force to do something other than what he saw you choose - making you his puppet.

Just think if you see your friend hitting on a really bad idea. You know it is going to end badly. Your knowledge of the out come has no effect until you lock him in the bathroom until he sobers up.

"If God knows the past, present, and future, then he also knew the past, present, and future when he created us. This would mean that our lives are entirely deterministic since knowing the future requires one to know all the events that lead to that future, which implies that those events already existed at the time we were create and that we have no choice but to follow them."​

Yes but you are assuming this knowing is linear and static. If doesn't have to be any more than an electron is.

if god knows for a fact that in the future on April 13th 2017 you will sleep until 8:00 AM, how could you do any differently than just that?

What if god knows the probability distribution of the event but it doesn't collapse to a specific happening until you do or do not actually sleep in, in any particular universe?​

 

[Akivah]

I don't understand how knowing the future is the same as controlling the future.

Suppose each person throughout all time had a camera over their shoulder recording all the choices that we made during our lives, and G-d has the ability to view all those movies, how does viewing our choices equate to G-d controlling our choices?

 

[Skwim]

You are putting the cart before the horse. If you choose to eat the banana he saw that you would eat the banana. If you choose to eat the apple; he saw that you would eat the apple. In your timeline you have freewill, but he is not in your time line and can see what happened in your future.

Note that I put "choose" in quotation marks. This is because I believe no one really chooses anything in the freewill sense. Regardless if some god sees what we do in the future or not, that doing was deterministically predetermined: fated to happen. So, in actuality god's omniscience really has nothing to do with determining what you do. It only testifies as to what one is destined to do.

I know my previous comments may not have been clear on this, so I apologize for leading anyone astray.

 

[Skwim]

I don't understand how knowing the future is the same as controlling the future.

It isn't. See my post above.

 

[WhatGod]

Note that I put "choose" in quotation marks.

So who really made you do that then?

So if everything is predestined by god, doesn't that make him evil for all the evil he predestined and petty for holding people responsible for his decision over which they had no control?

 

[Skwim]

So who really made you do that then?

Not a who, but a what, and that what are all the various influences in my life that lead up to causing me to do what I did.

So if everything is predestined by god, doesn't that make him evil for all the evil he predestined and petty for holding people responsible for his decision over which they had no control?

First of all, as an agnostic I don't lay any responsibility on any deity, predestination included. However, if, as you say, everything is predestined by god then, yes, I'd say that would make him evil. HOWEVER, just as with us mere mortals, he too can only do what he's caused to do. He can do no differently than commit evil acts.

 

[WhatGod]

Not a who, but a what, and that what are all the various influences in my life that lead up to causing me to do what I did.

So all these what's have a plan for your life? Which what caused the quotes then? The causal chain is pretty fresh. It shouldn't be hard to get the primary causes down.

First of all, as an agnostic I don't lay any responsibility on any deity, predestination included.

That isn't a given with agnostics. Many are also adherents to particular faiths as well.

However, if, as you say, everything is predestined by god then, yes, I'd say that would make him evil. HOWEVER, just as with us mere mortals, he too can only do what he's caused to do. He can do no differently than commit evil acts.

Except as the deity he is supposed to be outside the causal chain.

 

[Willamena]

I don't understand how knowing the future is the same as controlling the future.

Suppose each person throughout all time had a camera over their shoulder recording all the choices that we made during our lives, and G-d has the ability to view all those movies, how does viewing our choices equate to G-d controlling our choices?

On the basis that what is known is true, and that choice implies options, the idea that that g-d or anyone knows a future choice robs us of any options, so what we do was never really our choice.

 

[Willamena]

Except as the deity he is supposed to be outside the causal chain.

According to whom?

 

[Skwim]

So all these what's have a plan for your life?

No plan. Stuff just happens as a result of causes and effects.

Which what caused the quotes then? The causal chain is pretty fresh. It shouldn't be hard to get the primary causes down.

I doubt there was a primary cause, and as fresh as the chain may be I have very little a clue as to what it's comprised of.

That isn't a given with agnostics.

No it isn't, but it is with me. And if you see no connection then so be it.

Many are also adherents to particular faiths as well.

Don't know what you mean by "many," but I suspect that only a small percentage are "adherents to particular faiths."

Except as the deity he is supposed to be outside the causal chain.

Who supposes this? If he interacts in any manner with life and its environs by default he becomes part of the chain. In fact, just by positing such a being, as a construct of the mind he can become a cause of an effect

 

[Thruve]

I don't understand how knowing the future is the same as controlling the future.

Suppose each person throughout all time had a camera over their shoulder recording all the choices that we made during our lives, and G-d has the ability to view all those movies, how does viewing our choices equate to G-d controlling our choices?

Thats.. part of the debate.

 

[Ingledsva]

Does the Abrahamic God have an infinite amount of knowledge about everything? I believe he does since the abrahamic faiths frequently claim that he knows the past, present, and future. They also claim he is infinitely righteous and good, which would require him to have infinite knowledge about himself--he would have to know an infinite amount of truths and falsehoods about himself.

This begs the question of whether or not free will exists. If God knows the past, present, and future, then he also knew the past, present, and future when he created us. This would mean that our lives are entirely deterministic since knowing the future requires one to know all the events that lead to that future, which implies that those events already existed at the time we were create and that we have no choice but to follow them.

How can a "God" that doesn't exist be omniscient?




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[Sleeppy]

God is omniscient. Time is an illusion. Free will is an illusion. There is one God; God is God; nothing subverts God's will (as freewill would require).

 

[Thruve]

How can a "God" that doesn't exist be omniscient?




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Oh Gawd. Everybody run... Its this chick again.
Go ruin another topic please.. For the love of the sky.. go elsewhere..

Nobody mention the G word until she leaves -.- Refer to G as an animal. A random animal.

 

[Ingledsva]

Serp777,
The Almighty God, whose Proper Name is Jehovah, is indeed, omniscient. This term means that God KNOWS everything. This does not mean that He knows all things that have NOT, even been done, there is really nothing to know, since nothing has been done.
Now, Jehovah God does, at times, look forward, and foreordain certain things that He knows will happen, mainly because He has PURPOSED for the things to happen. This is different from what many people believe. The truth is God does not look forward to see what every individual person will do.
Think about what is recorded in the Holy Scriptures, God has felt sorry about the things that His creation turned out, Gen 6:5-7. If God had known what was going to happen, why would He feel bad about happened??
This same idea is recorded throughout the scriptures.
One real interesting scripture is recorded at Job 14:15. It seems that God misses His servants. God can remember all the things that everyone has done during their life, but God wants to see what His faithful servants, will do in the future. God has not looked into the future of all people.

Job 14:15 doesn't say anything about God missing his servants.

It is talking about death and Sheol.


Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?,

Job 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in SHEOL, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

I don't know where all the odd translations of 15 come from. I translate it -

Job 14:15 Thou shall call, and I shall testify/give account of my actions, my fear/longing in your power/hands.

Job 14:16 For now thou numberest my steps: dost thou not watch over my sin?

Job 14:17 My transgression is sealed up in a bag, and thou sewest up mine iniquity.

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[Ingledsva]

How can a "God" that doesn't exist be omniscient?

Oh Gawd. Everybody run... Its this chick again.
Go ruin another topic please.. For the love of the sky.. go elsewhere..

Nobody mention the G word until she leaves -.- Refer to G as an animal. A random animal.

This is a legit question, for the way the OP is stated.



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[Thruve]

This is a legit question, for the way the OP is stated.



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2/10

Nice try though.

Your still my fav person on rf >.>

 

[serp777]

You are putting the cart before the horse. If you choose to eat the banana he saw that you would eat the banana. If you choose to eat the apple; he saw that you would eat the apple. In your timeline you have freewill, but he is not in your time line and can see what happened in your future.

The only impact is if he interacts with you to force to do something other than what he saw you choose - making you his puppet.

Just think if you see your friend hitting on a really bad idea. You know it is going to end badly. Your knowledge of the out come has no effect until you lock him in the bathroom until he sobers up.



Yes but you are assuming this knowing is linear and static. If doesn't have to be any more than an electron is.



What if god knows the probability distribution of the event but it doesn't collapse to a specific happening until you do or do not actually sleep in, in any particular universe?

If God only knows the probability distribution, but not the result, then he is not omniscient because there is knowledge he does not have.

 

[viole]

Does the Abrahamic God have an infinite amount of knowledge about everything? I believe he does since the abrahamic faiths frequently claim that he knows the past, present, and future. They also claim he is infinitely righteous and good, which would require him to have infinite knowledge about himself--he would have to know an infinite amount of truths and falsehoods about himself.

This begs the question of whether or not free will exists. If God knows the past, present, and future, then he also knew the past, present, and future when he created us. This would mean that our lives are entirely deterministic since knowing the future requires one to know all the events that lead to that future, which implies that those events already existed at the time we were create and that we have no choice but to follow them.

I don't think that there is a contradiction, independently from the neurological origins of free will, that we can neglect for the moment.

Knowing our choices in advance does not entail hat we were forced to take them. I can anticipate most of my husband's choices, but I doubt that this statistically influences his free will.

Ciao

- viole