Is the abrahamic God omniscient, and does that conflict with free will?

[Skwim]

An omninescent god knowing of past and present at any given time doesn't imply that we don't have free will.

Sure it does. The implication of god's omnicience is that at a particular time in the future you cannot "choose" to eat a banana when he has seen you will eat an apple. You have no freewill to do so. You HAVE to eat the apple.


From serp777's post.

"If God knows the past, present, and future, then he also knew the past, present, and future when he created us. This would mean that our lives are entirely deterministic since knowing the future requires one to know all the events that lead to that future, which implies that those events already existed at the time we were create and that we have no choice but to follow them."
​

Although "destined" would be a far better term than "deterministic," the point is, if god knows for a fact that in the future on April 13th 2017 you will sleep until 8:00 AM, how could you do any differently than just that? You couldn't. You are destined to do just that and nothing different. If you could then god was in error, which means he's not omniscient at all. One can't have it both ways.

All it boils down to is that, atleast to me, a choice had to of been made somewhere in the timeline in order for him to see it. In other words, had I not chosen to reply to your post, an omninescent god would have already known before hand the choice that I made. Determinism is irrelevant.

As I said at the outset, it's an

"argument for determinism based on god's omniscience." Not the basis of determinism.
​

The basis of determinism rest on the unfailing process of cause/effect. In fact, even if determinism was somehow not true, god's omniscience would still mean you would still lack the ability to do any differently in the future than what he see's you doing. You will HAVE to do it.

Now, the factors of determinism that can and often do lead us to make choices that would otherwise seem like an illusion is a different argument. But an omninescent god alone doesn't affirm determinism.

Strictly speaking, I agree, but it does affirm destiny and deny freewill. You are not free to do other than what god has seen you do. Right now, at this very moment, a pen and a pencil sit before you on your desk. You intend to write something down. Do you use the pen or the pencil? Well, there's really no choice involved. You have to do whatever god saw you doing. Try picking up the pen when he saw you picking up the pencil. It won't happen.

 

[Thruve]

Sure it does. The implication of god's omnicience is that at a particular time in the future you cannot "choose" to eat a banana when he has seen you will eat an apple. You have no freewill to do so. You HAVE to eat the apple.


From serp777's post.

"If God knows the past, present, and future, then he also knew the past, present, and future when he created us. This would mean that our lives are entirely deterministic since knowing the future requires one to know all the events that lead to that future, which implies that those events already existed at the time we were create and that we have no choice but to follow them."
​

Although "destined" would be a far better term than "deterministic," the point is, if god knows for a fact that in the future on April 13th 2017 you will sleep until 8:00 AM, how could you do any differently than just that? You couldn't. You are destined to do just that and nothing different. If you could then god was in error, which means he's not omniscient at all. One can't have it both ways.

As I said at the outset, it's an

"argument for determinism based on god's omniscience." Not the basis of determinism.
​

The basis of determinism rest on the unfailing process of cause/effect. In fact, even if determinism was somehow not true, god's omniscience would still mean you would still lack the ability to do any differently in the future than what he see's you doing. You will HAVE to do it.

Strictly speaking, I agree, but it does affirm destiny and deny freewill. You are not free to do other than what god has seen you do. Right now, at this very moment, a pen and a pencil sit before you on your desk. You intend to write something down. Do you use the pen or the pencil? Well, there's really no choice involved. You have to do whatever god saw you doing. Try picking up the pen when he saw you picking up the pencil. It won't happen.

Yea. I think this all depends on how you perceive time, or rather how an omninescent god sees it.


If you perceive an omniscient god as seeing time like we do, then yea, I could see that point and see how destiny denies free will.
Our choices would easily be manipulated, and it'd be easy to be deceived by an illusion of free will (determinism).

I, however, imagine that an omniscient god could see everything from the choices to actions I've ever made at any given point of time from my birth to death. This suggests that His knowledge of this universe/prophesy/destiny/fate/etc came from simply seeing everything at once at any time he chose. In other words, you've made every decision your going to make in your life already. God sees it all at once where we see it as a linear sequence. One can argue that god manipulates the outcomes of our choices, not the choices made by themselves. This is what I lean towards ^ it's the only thing that makes sense if we are to believe that we do have free will.

An example I want to give portrays the dilemma of how god perceives time, which I believe would help suggest determinism.
I've made this example before. and Its the best example I can give.


(((Determinism/linear)))---- Imagine playing the sims (comp version) and having your sims set on free will. Insta forward to 20 years since your sim was made. Insta Forward to 30 years even, to see what career they may have and lets say they are a doctor. Insta Backspeed (if you could) back to 20 years, and cause an event to have a butterfly effect to lead a firefighting sim to become friends with your sim. Fast forward 30 years again, and perhaps this time your sims a police man, or a firefighter as well.
The smallest details that are 'external' to ones will would be detrimental to the decision making of the sim in the future. In other words, our destinies are already set in stone. Free Will is an illusion. Our choices are manipulated.


(((Free Will/non linear))) --- Imagine playing the sims (comp version) and having your sims set on free will. This time, you don't need to Insta forward to see all the events unfold. Instead, though, you can see all the outcomes of everything and every choice at any given moment (at a global level, too). The difference is that you can control the outcomes, and not have to manipulate choices to get that outcome. God would know exactly what outcome is needed for any choice you made. This also supports destiny, but it does not deny free will. I determine destiny to be a psychological state anyhow, not a setting, so thinking of this doesn't bother me one bit. The issue is here that there HAS to be freewill in order to do so, which is what I support because I cannot STAND the fact that I don't have free will. The outcomes are determined, I guess you could say, not our choices = yes, free will.

 

[Skwim]

It's frustrating that you are having problems with this sentence:

"A Christian will say that because WE are not capable of knowing the future and we only have access to our own choices and actions in the now, that is the definition of free will given by God. He's the master planner."

What EXACTLY are you looking for as proof?

No proof. Just some evidence, *sigh* that god actually gave such a definition. Simple as that; however, considering all the tap dancing you've been doing around my request, I'm quite certain there isn't any. You simply pulled the claim out of thin air or wherever.

 

[Buttercup]

No proof. Just some evidence, *sigh* that god actually gave such a definition. Simple as that; however, considering all the tap dancing you've been doing around my request, I'm now quite certain there isn't any. You simply pulled the claim out of thin air or wherever.

Haha. You are funny. I'll come back tomorrow with some scriptural evidence that God claims we have free will, at least according to the Christian Bible.

If you want evidence for Islam, Judaism or the Bahai faith, you'll have to dig those up yourself.

 

[Skwim]

Haha. You are funny. I'll come back tomorrow with some scriptural evidence that God claims we have free will, at least according to the Christian Bible.

Don't care about god's claim of freewill. You do understand the difference between claiming the existence of X and defining X don't you? ---THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING.--- If you don't understand, think about it for awhile and then get back to me.

And to make it easy, just fill in the following.

"I, Buttercup, know god defines freewill as "WE are not capable of knowing the future and we only have access to our own choices and actions
in the now" because _____________________________________________________.

 

[Buttercup]

Don't care about god's claim of freewill. You do understand the difference between claiming the existence of X and defining X don't you? ---THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING.--- If you don't understand, think about it for awhile and then get back to me.

You know, you did this to me in another thread. First you ask for something and when I tried to get clarification of what you want exactly, you claimed you didn't want it and that wasn't what you were asking for. It's the exact same thing you're doing here.

And to make it easy, just fill in the following.

"I, Buttercup, know god defines freewill as "WE are not capable of knowing the future and we only have access to our own choices and actions
in the now" because _____________________________________________________.

What will it accomplish for me to fill in scripture? I'm already telling you that as a Christian I was taught to believe we have free will. If I display scripture outlining what I believe to be a message from God that we have free will, I already know you'll say the scripture doesn't say that. I'm not going to waste my time and that's why I won't look it up. I haven't had anyone on ignore in years but I'm sorry to say I'll have to place you there. It's just too frustrating. I prefer for discussions to get somewhere eventually. This conversation won't go anywhere.

 

[Skwim]

You know, you did this to me in another thread. First you ask for something and when I tried to get clarification of what you want exactly, you claimed you didn't want it and that wasn't what you were asking for. It's the exact same thing you're doing here.

Obviously you're incapable of distinguishing existence of X from defining X. My condolences.

And, in regard to your claim that god defined freewill as "We are not capable of knowing the future and we only have access to our own choices and actions in the now" show me where I've asked for anything more than provide your source.

What will it accomplish for me to fill in scripture? I'm already telling you that as a Christian I was taught to believe we have free will. If I display scripture outlining what I believe to be a message from God that we have free will, I already know you'll say the scripture doesn't say that. I'm not going to waste my time and that's why I won't look it up. I haven't had anyone on ignore in years but I'm sorry to say I'll have to place you there. It's just too frustrating. I prefer for discussions to get somewhere eventually. This conversation won't go anywhere.

Not with your inability to process simple prose.

 

[serp777]

Why does being infinitely righteous and good require infinite knowledge? And "about himself"? And, of course, the claim that god, at least the Abrahamic version, is infinitely righteous and good is certainly false. He's reportedly done some pretty despicable stuff.

Which pretty much sums up the argument for determinism based on god's omniscience.

So God is not omnipotent and therefore not perfect? Not very God like.

Also to be infinitely righteous and moral you have to know an infinite amount of truths about yourself. How else would God know that he is infinitely righteous and moral?

And furthermore, Christians claim that everything God does is righteous, even if it seems despicable to us humans. plus most Christians would agree most of the bible is metaphorical.

 

[serp777]

Serp777,
The Almighty God, whose Proper Name is Jehovah, is indeed, omniscient. This term means that God KNOWS everything. This does not mean that He knows all things that have NOT, even been done, there is really nothing to know, since nothing has been done.
Now, Jehovah God does, at times, look forward, and foreordain certain things that He knows will happen, mainly because He has PURPOSED for the things to happen. This is different from what many people believe. The truth is God does not look forward to see what every individual person will do.
Think about what is recorded in the Holy Scriptures, God has felt sorry about the things that His creation turned out, Gen 6:5-7. If God had known what was going to happen, why would He feel bad about happened??
This same idea is recorded throughout the scriptures.
One real interesting scripture is recorded at Job 14:15. It seems that God misses His servants. God can remember all the things that everyone has done during their life, but God wants to see what His faithful servants, will do in the future. God has not looked into the future of all people.

That is not an omniscient God. An omniscient God knows the past, present, and future simultaneously, because if he didn't then he would not know all knowledge. Therefore, by definition, he would not be omniscent, and therefore not perfect.

"If God had known what was going to happen, why would He feel bad about happened??"
So you're claiming that God is not all knowing, and therefore is not perfect?

And plus people can feel bad about something even if they know it's going to happen. it's called guilt, an ironically human trait.

 

[SageTree]

Would it be possible that God knows the outcome of every conceivable outcome to any CHOICE we could make, which would still leave us completely free to choose?

Read: Knows infinite outcomes, but we are free too choose them.

Knowing all means all, not just one linear path or time line, but infinite possibilities, no?

 

[Shad]

Then God does not know for a fact the future but merely which is predictable. Something we humans can do on our own and have done for centuries.

 

[SageTree]

Knows =\= Predict

 

[Shad]

Knowledge is comprised of known facts/information. Prediction is speculation and probability. It is not 100% fact thus is not knowledge.

 

[SageTree]

I never said predict, m8.

I said knows all outcomes.

Meaning knows the ends of all possible choices.

 

[Shad]

True but if an outcome is false then it is not knowledge but a failed prediction and false knowledge. Thus God does not "know" all possible outcomes, just can predict all possible out comes. If there is one outcome which is true this is knowledge, not the 99% of the failed ones. Thus if one prediction is 100% true and known by God fate is already set.

 

[Thruve]

Would it be possible that God knows the outcome of every conceivable outcome to any CHOICE we could make, which would still leave us completely free to choose?

Read: Knows infinite outcomes, but we are free too choose them.

Knowing all means all, not just one linear path or time line, but infinite possibilities, no?

Thats a tricky one. Thats crazy lol
I mean, If its true that theres an infinite number of alternative realities to account for every possible decision every human being could have ever made, including every living creature like skwims dog, and skwims dust mite living in his shoe, yes! He'd of had to see the outcome to know the outcome.

I stick to my theory that God sees all decisions/outcomes at any given moment that he pleases. If theres an infinite numb of alternate realities, then yes, he knows all outcomes lol

 

[Shad]

Then all God is doing is multiplying fates which are already determined for that version of a person.

 

[Thruve]

Then all God is doing is multiplying fates which are already determined for that version of a person.

What I said wasn't a truth. It was a theory.
IMO if it was a truth, I wouldn't see it as multiplying'fates'. I'd see parallel universes, or in other words alternate realities, as something God created for knowledge purposes. Whether Im as conscious in all of these alternate realities, like a clone of me living elsewhere, is beyond me, but Ill assume thats not the case. All that is relevant is the here and now. Therefore, Id have to see it as for knowledge purposes.

 

[Shad]

Yes but I am taking the theory to its logical outcome. If there are multiply universes for each choice then this is the fate of that person. The fate for that person was made before the choice thus fate is already set.

 

[SageTree]

He'd of had to see the outcome to know the outcome.

I stick to my theory that God sees all decisions/outcomes at any given moment that he pleases. If theres an infinite numb of alternate realities, then yes, he knows all outcomes lol

Like a running ticker tape to what the ends will be?
Read: Constantly updated Knowledge, but not a predetermined one, so to speak.