Is The American Empire Gone?

[Wirey]

How 9/11 hastened the decline of the American empire - World - CBC News

The idea of America as the world's policeman is almost certainly dead, at least outside the US. But will America truly fade ito irrelevance militarily by 2025?

 

[Vouthon]

I don't think so. The US is still by far the world's superpower militarily and economically. China is starting to edge closer to economic supremacy but it is a long, long way from having the military and political clout internationally of the United States.

So, no - America is still the sole superpower.

 

[YmirGF]

I don't think so. The US is still by far the world's superpower militarily and economically. China is starting to edge closer to economic supremacy but it is a long, long way from having the military and political clout internationally of the United States.

So, no - America is still the sole superpower.

And will remain so, for the foreseeable future.

 

[LuisDantas]

How 9/11 hastened the decline of the American empire - World - CBC News

The idea of America as the world's policeman is almost certainly dead, at least outside the US. But will America truly fade ito irrelevance militarily by 2025?

Hopefully far sooner.

 

[Vouthon]

Hopefully far sooner.

Wishful thinking my friend.

 

[YmirGF]

Wishful thinking my friend.

Well, he can always hope. :drool:

 

[Wirey]

Every empire ends, and the US is already beginning to retract. What makes you so certain they'll be able to afford the military they have now in 20 years?

 

[Vouthon]

Every empire ends

True but the US has only been the sole global superpower since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. That is just over 20 years. Before that it was co-global policeman in a bipolar international order alongside the Soviet Union, for just over 40 years - although to be fair the Soviet economy was declining rapidly and was overtaken by American capitalism by yards in the late 1970s and 1980s.

Prior to this Great Britain was the foremost power, for around 130 years.

I would argue that the Pax Americana has barely begun, let alone it being close to cessation.

Its closest rival is China and while it may become top-dog one day, it is a long way off even by the most optimistic predictions. When and if it does become equal or overtake the US, we will probably have a bipolar world like we had during the Cold War without the US thereby losing its superpower status, which it will likely still hang on to for a good deal longer like Britain did when challenged by Imperial Germany.

I'm sure that in 1850 you would probably have expressed the same wishful thinking about Great Britain and its growing rivalry with Imperial Russia which culminated in the Crimean War, or in 1880 with its great rivalry with Imperial Germany that culminated in WW1. Both nations ultimately failed to dislodge Britain as the foremost power and world policeman, with only WW2 eventually killing it in 1945 to be replaced by the US and USSR.

I would say we are around that place - ie 1850 - in relation to America today. It will "reign" for many, many more years in my opinion.

 

[YmirGF]

Every empire ends, and the US is already beginning to retract. What makes you so certain they'll be able to afford the military they have now in 20 years?

Because they are the financial nerve centre of the known universe? As crappy as the US economy presently is, it's still the best game in town.

 

[dust1n]

It seems to me that America oversees the organization of the world more than it ever has in its history.

 

[sandandfoam]

What does it mean to be a 'superpower'?
I think America is greatest in the mind of Americans. I see paranoia and swagger. A very odd combination.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The United States has never been an empire.

 

[YmirGF]

The United States has never been an empire.

I was going to quibble on that too but decided to let it pass.

 

[Vouthon]

The United States has never been an empire.

True but I believe that people are using 'empire' in a less than literal sense. America has power like and indeed greater than a traditional 19th century empire.

Consider the Book of Maccabees flattering description of the Roman Republic's international clout in the second century BC (the year 161 BC to be specific):

1 Maccabees 8

A Eulogy of the Romans

Now Judas heard of the fame of the Romans, that they were very strong and were well disposed towards all who made an alliance with them, that they pledged friendship to those who came to them, and that they were very strong. He had been told of their wars and of the brave deeds that they were doing among the Gauls, how they had defeated them and forced them to pay tribute, and what they had done in the land of Spain to get control of the silver and gold mines there, and how they had gained control of the whole region by their planning and patience, even though the place was far distant from them. They also subdued the kings who came against them from the ends of the earth, until they crushed them and inflicted great disaster on them; the rest paid them tribute every year. They had crushed in battle and conquered Philip, and King Perseus of the Macedonians, and the others who rose up against them. They also had defeated Antiochus the Great, king of Asia, who went to fight against them with one hundred twenty elephants and with cavalry and chariots and a very large army. He was crushed by them; they took him alive and decreed that he and those who would reign after him should pay a heavy tribute and give hostages and surrender some of their best provinces, the countries of India, Media, and Lydia. These they took from him and gave to King Eumenes. The Greeks planned to come and destroy them, but this became known to them, and they sent a general against the Greeks and attacked them. Many of them were wounded and fell, and the Romans took captive their wives and children; they plundered them, conquered the land, tore down their strongholds, and enslaved them to this day. The remaining kingdoms and islands, as many as ever opposed them, they destroyed and enslaved; but with their friends and those who rely on them they have kept friendship. They have subdued kings far and near, and as many as have heard of their fame have feared them. Those whom they wish to help and to make kings, they make kings, and those whom they wish they depose; and they have been greatly exalted. Yet for all this not one of them has put on a crown or worn purple as a mark of pride, but they have built for themselves a senate chamber, and every day three hundred and twenty senators constantly deliberate concerning the people, to govern them well. They trust one man each year to rule over them and to control all their land; they all heed the one man, and there is no envy or jealousy among them.

An Alliance with Rome

17 So Judas chose Eupolemus son of John son of Accos, and Jason son of Eleazar, and sent them to Rome to establish friendship and alliance, and to free themselves from the yoke; for they saw that the kingdom of the Greeks was enslaving Israel completely. They went to Rome, a very long journey; and they entered the senate chamber and spoke as follows: “Judas, who is also called Maccabeus, and his brothers and the people of the Jews have sent us to you to establish alliance and peace with you, so that we may be enrolled as your allies and friends.” The proposal pleased them, and this is a copy of the letter that they wrote in reply, on bronze tablets, and sent to Jerusalem to remain with them there as a memorial of peace and alliance.

“May all go well with the Romans and with the nation of the Jews at sea and on land forever, and may sword and enemy be far from them. If war comes first to Rome or to any of their allies in all their dominion, the nation of the Jews shall act as their allies wholeheartedly, as the occasion may indicate to them. To the enemy that makes war they shall not give or supply grain, arms, money, or ships, just as Rome has decided; and they shall keep their obligations without receiving any return. In the same way, if war comes first to the nation of the Jews, the Romans shall willingly act as their allies, as the occasion may indicate to them. And to their enemies there shall not be given grain, arms, money, or ships, just as Rome has decided; and they shall keep these obligations and do so without deceit. Thus on these terms the Romans make a treaty with the Jewish people. If after these terms are in effect both parties shall determine to add or delete anything, they shall do so at their discretion, and any addition or deletion that they may make shall be valid.

“Concerning the wrongs that King Demetrius is doing to them, we have written to him as follows, ‘Why have you made your yoke heavy on our friends and allies the Jews? If now they appeal again for help against you, we will defend their rights and fight you on sea and on land.’”

(NRSV)

This book is considered divinely inspired by Catholics and Orthodox Christians and is in our Old Testament. Its description of Rome in the second century BC, when it was still a long way off from being an empire, is stunningly similar to the USA. Rome was already like an empire and in some respects more powerful than any other in the second-first century BC, yet it was emphatically not an empire. The Roman republic was founded after a revolution against an Etruscan king and even as late as the second century AD of the Roman Empire, the Caesars refrained from wearing crowns or appearing as anything other than "first citizens" because of the Roman contempt for monarchy and kingship.

The passage above was written with reference to Rome's recognition of the independence of the Judean kingdom from the Seleucid Empire and its entering into an alliance with the Jewish people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman–Jewish_Treaty

The US is practically New Rome and Rome was the foremost world power for about 600 years, well over a thousand years if you consider the Byzantine Empire to be 'Rome'.

Not that America will last anywhere near that long but it makes you think.

 

[Alceste]

Every empire ends, and the US is already beginning to retract. What makes you so certain they'll be able to afford the military they have now in 20 years?

Every empire is also choc-a-block with patriots who refuse to believe the golden era will ever end. Hell, there are still Brits waltzing around who haven't gotten over the death of colonialism. Wouldn't be surprised if there are even Italians who haven't entirely let go of the Roman Empire.

 

[Whiterain]

The US isn't going anywhere without one hell of a skirmish.

Battleships (27)
Carriers (256)

Amphibious Dock (66)
Amphibs / Gators (2,904)
Cruisers (168)
Destroyers (686)
Tenders (88)
Unrep Ships (182)

DE - FF (581)

Amphibious Assault (20)

Balistic Missile Submarines (59)

Attack Submarines (430)

That's just the naval ships, there's also a huge inventory of aircraft.

I believe in the USA's constitution and bill of rights and religious freedom, even though the Christian's believe this is supposed to be a Christrian nation, it wasn't founded on the belief. Our Government also pushed to seperate it's citizens into it's own "American" culture, even though we have a strong European culture as well, I do miss Europe a lot.

It will take a long time to win back international favor, if that is ever accomplished. A lot of Nations are angry with the Russian Federation right now. Scotland is still adamant about seperating from England. The EU may grow into the dominating power if Russia does commit to President Putin's vow Russia is no longer seeking conquest. Scandinavia can become a major super power but it's economy doesn't seem nearly as powerful as other Nations.

France seems meek on the subject. Rome could return as a super power if they wanted to, they are restoring the Colosseum, that alone isn't going to restore all of it's former glory.

It's ultimately boiling down to economics, even though joining a union doesn't exactly make your country property of the other, The EU is going quite strong and all.

It's difficult to say, Scotland wanting independence from the U.K. isn't cataclysmic to England.

If it came to conquest and ultimate war with the US, it would be cataclysmic plus the potential for nuclear warfare.

Which cess pool of a Nation is right or wrong is indeterminate to me. Even with our Constitution and Bill of Rights, they're infringed on regularly if the Government deems it necessary.

 

[Vouthon]

Wouldn't be surprised if there are even Italians who haven't entirely let go of the Roman Empire.

Berlusconi comes to mind. And Mussolini before him - he actually tried (disastrously) to re-build the Roman Empire in the Mediterranean.

 

[Wirey]

The US isn't going anywhere without one hell of a skirmish.

Battleships (27)
Carriers (256)

Amphibious Dock (66)
Amphibs / Gators (2,904)
Cruisers (168)
Destroyers (686)
Tenders (88)
Unrep Ships (182)

DE - FF (581)

Amphibious Assault (20)

Balistic Missile Submarines (59)

Attack Submarines (430)

That's just the naval ships, there's also a huge inventory of aircraft.

I believe in the USA's constitution and bill of rights and religious freedom, even though the Christian's believe this is supposed to be a Christrian nation, it wasn't founded on the belief. Our Government also pushed to seperate it's citizens into it's own "American" culture, even though we have a strong European culture as well, I do miss Europe a lot.

It will take a long time to win back international favor, if that is ever accomplished. A lot of Nations are angry with the Russian Federation right now. Scotland is still adamant about seperating from England. The EU may grow into the dominating power if Russia does commit to President Putin's vow Russia is no longer seeking conquest. Scandinavia can become a major super power but it's economy doesn't seem nearly as powerful as other Nations.

France seems meek on the subject. Rome could return as a super power if they wanted to, they are restoring the Colosseum, that alone isn't going to restore all of it's former glory.

It's ultimately boiling down to economics, even though joining a union doesn't exactly make your country property of the other, The EU is going quite strong and all.

It's difficult to say, Scotland wanting independence from the U.K. isn't cataclysmic to England.

If it came to conquest and ultimate war with the US, it would be cataclysmic plus the potential for nuclear warfare.

Which cess pool of a Nation is right or wrong is indeterminate to me. Even with our Constitution and Bill of Rights, they're infringed on regularly if the Government deems it necessary.

Your numbers are a little wonky. The US has zero battleships in commission. All of those lists include ships that were sunk during WW2. The Enterprise (CV-6) was scrapped in 1958. You list 256 aircraft carriers, but the US has 10 active (3 being built).

And if that A-bomb is how you think you'll maintain power, I suggest you form a mental image of Hitler in the bunker swearing that if he couldn't survive, Germany didn't deserve to. Gotterdammerung is not empire maintenance, it's the end.

 

[Poeticus]

Is The American Empire Gone?

Yes, now it's time for Canadian Global Rule. However, Canada should be open to trade and diplomatic relations with the Grand Principality of Maryland. Much can be accomplished and gained from such an endeavor.

 

[Wirey]

Yes, now it's time for Canadian Global Rule. However, Canada should be open to trade and diplomatic relations with the Grand Principality of Maryland. Much can be accomplished and gained from such an endeavor.

Much of a market for maple snow cones down there?