Is the Arab World's explusion of Jews news to you?

[icehorse]

So u mean that is bad and horrible, but its ok to kick out Palestinians and to built illegal settlements?

I just wanna understand you.

How big of a context do you think is appropriate? The Arabs are kicking almost all non-Muslim populations out of the entire ME. Should that be a factor? For example, if the Jews were to abandon Israel, do you think the Arabs would give the Christian Coptics their land back?

 

[Vinayaka]

How big of a context do you think is appropriate? The Arabs are kicking almost all non-Muslim populations out of the entire ME. Should that be a factor? For example, if the Jews were to abandon Israel, do you think the Arabs would give the Christian Coptics their land back?

Not just the middle east, but the entire Muslim world is unfriendly to non-Muslims. Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Malaysia all come to mind. We can find examples all over.

Bangladeshi Hindus seeking safety in India | Asia | DW.COM | 07.06.2016

Spread of Islam in West Africa (All parts) - The Religion of Islam

As for Jewish people doing the same, there is only one Jewish majority state to look at.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

How big of a context do you think is appropriate? The Arabs are kicking almost all non-Muslim populations out of the entire ME. Should that be a factor? For example, if the Jews were to abandon Israel, do you think the Arabs would give the Christian Coptics their land back?

What land u talk about lol!
Majority of Coptic Christians left christianity for the Truth(Islam).
U really think muslims in Egypt all came from Arabia? Only a small percentage calls themselves descendants of Arabs, Turks, Romans, Greeks and other invaders. Majority of Modern Egyptians are descendants of Ancient Egyptians.

So to make this appear as if Egyptian Muslims are aliens wont work here.

 

[LuisDantas]

What land u talk about lol!
Majority of Coptic Christians left christianity for the Truth(Islam).
U really think muslims in Egypt all came from Arabia? Only a small percentage calls themselves descendants of Arabs, Turks, Romans, Greeks and other invaders. Majority of Modern Egyptians are descendants of Ancient Egyptians.

So to make this appear as if Egyptian Muslims are aliens wont work here.

I am a Brazilian. I am well aware of the dynamics of oppression along generations. You will need to do a lot better before you have a point.

 

[icehorse]

What land u talk about lol!
Majority of Coptic Christians left christianity for the Truth(Islam).
U really think muslims in Egypt all came from Arabia? Only a small percentage calls themselves descendants of Arabs, Turks, Romans, Greeks and other invaders. Majority of Modern Egyptians are descendants of Ancient Egyptians.

So to make this appear as if Egyptian Muslims are aliens wont work here.

Hey soto - I think you answered a different question?

 

[Estro Felino]

What land u talk about lol!
Majority of Coptic Christians left christianity for the Truth(Islam).
U really think muslims in Egypt all came from Arabia? Only a small percentage calls themselves descendants of Arabs, Turks, Romans, Greeks and other invaders. Majority of Modern Egyptians are descendants of Ancient Egyptians.

So to make this appear as if Egyptian Muslims are aliens wont work here.

Imperialism is always bad, no matter how moderate it is. That's why today we use international law (and not war) to regulate International controversies, and to assure that each nation has the right to self-determination.
Israel has the right to exist, but it turns out that its neighbors always used war instead of diplomacy to solve territorial controversies. This is surely anachronistic.
What people are trying to make you understand is that the Empires of the past suppressed people's rights to self-determination. Romans destroyed Jerusalem in the 1st century CE, and the Byzantines were not fair to the Jews.
It's time to remedy the mistakes of the past, don't you think so?

 

[Limo]

You are quite mistaken, Limo. I was never a Christian, nor an European.

It's plural "you" not personal "you"
Regards

 

[Limo]

This is wrong. Yes its true that the Islamic world was usually (but not always) safer than the Christian world. But that's relative to the Christian world at the time, not an objective standard. Jews were massacred, expelled, given identifying clothing to wear and degraded in Muslim countries as well.

Fair. Agree."Islamic world was usually (but not always) safer than the Christian world"

We can use Morocco as an example since you mention it.
Should I keep going on? I had to stop there because just the bad things that were done to Jews in Morocco was more than 12,000 characters that we're given for a post. You can read more about it here if you like.

Sure it was better than most European countries. But don't pretend that it was jannah.

True and agree

"We didn't kill as many Jews as you!"
I'm not sure that's something to be boast about.

Absolutely not the case.
We as Muslims are requested to be peacful with non-Muslims in the Islamic Caliphate under Islamic Law by Quran and Hadeeth

وَٱللّٰه حبيبي؟؟؟

​

I mean, that's ignoring the early Caliphates that brought war to every country they conquered.

Look, Khaibar fought against the Islamic army. As per war laws at that time, warier should be wither killed or taken prisoners of war, all women and children should be salved, all wealth are taken as trophy.
The 50% of the harvest is an excellent deal at that time, in return they're safe and business as usual.
Even in Al-Ahzab or Al-Khandaq war when Islamic State in Madina was surrounded by non-Muslims Army, Prophet discussed companion to give 50% of the Islamic state harvest to the army of they leave them safe.
Jews of Khaibar

About Israel state, imagine that Jews and Christians are living there. And then Caliph Umar alKhittab comes with his Muslim army and says, you know what? I'll take this. And conquers the whole country and the surrounding countries and makes the residents into dhimmi and brings many, many Muslim Arabs into the country.

Good point.
Who was ruling Palestine at that time ? Was it ruled by Palestinian Christians and Jews ? Was it a free country ?

Anyway, I don't expect empathy to Arab Muslims Palestinians. I was responding to the logic that say "Why these Palestinians react to Israel State?
Anyone whose land is conquered/colonized has the right to fight and restore it back. This right is guaranteed by history, human rights, even UN and international law.
Regards

 

[Limo]

Since I've already dealt with most of the rest of your post, I wanted to just say one thing.


Since Jews obviously reject Jesus, aren't you basically saying there's never going to be a situation where Muslims will love good people of Israel...

I don't believe that Jesus-Christ as figured by what is called Christianity existed.

It's rorally wrong to say Jews reject Al-Masseh. Al-Masseh didn't bring a new religion. Al-Masseh was sent to take back Jews to the Law and a few changes. Accurate and new studies of history tells that there were many followers for Al-Masseh like Qumran community and early Unitarian. Unfortunately these groups vanished and resolved in both nations in Jews and Christians.

In all our prayers we pray for previous believers of all prophets سبقونا بالإيمان "Previous believers". They're inshaa-Allah in Paradise.

Any one heard about any true prophet (Noah, Ibrahim...Mosa,...Almasseh, and Mohamed) and didn't believe him is not saved and will go to hill.

Love or hate is not the aim, the point is living together in peace even if you hate someone.
Regards

 

[Tumah]

Absolutely not the case.
We as Muslims are requested to be peacful with non-Muslims in the Islamic Caliphate under Islamic Law by Quran and Hadeeth

That doesn't mean anything. Christians are also commanded to love their enemy and turn the other cheek and whatever other peaceful things. But that doesn't mean that they followed it historically or interpreted it as applying in every case. The same is true for Muslims and Caliphs.

Look, Khaibar fought against the Islamic army. As per war laws at that time, warier should be wither killed or taken prisoners of war, all women and children should be salved, all wealth are taken as trophy.
The 50% of the harvest is an excellent deal at that time, in return they're safe and business as usual.
Even in Al-Ahzab or Al-Khandaq war when Islamic State in Madina was surrounded by non-Muslims Army, Prophet discussed companion to give 50% of the Islamic state harvest to the army of they leave them safe.
Jews of Khaibar

That wasn't my point which is why I didn't bold it. I bolded the part where according to Caliph alAmir, the purpose of jiziya is to degrade dhimmi. That directly contradicts your statement that most issues against non-Muslims happened in the absence of the Caliphate. Here (and in other cases) it was the caliphate that instigated the cruel treatment of non-Jews based on their interpretation of Shariya - in this case, jiziya.

Good point.
Who was ruling Palestine at that time ?

The Byzantines.

Was it ruled by Palestinian Christians and Jews ?

No, just the Byzantines (Christians).

Was it a free country ?

You mean were people not of the ruling faith free to practice their religion? It was pretty bad for the Jews.

Anyway, I don't expect empathy to Arab Muslims Palestinians. I was responding to the logic that say "Why these Palestinians react to Israel State?

In the post that you were responding to, the other poster had been talking about the invasion of Israel in 1948. Israel wasn't invaded by Palestinians in 1948, they were invaded by Jordan, Egypt Syria and Iraq.

Or to put it anyway, why did Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Iraw get involved with Israel in 1948, but not with Tibet, Crimea, or Cyprus - all of which were conquered by neighboring countries in recent history?

Anyone whose land is conquered/colonized has the right to fight and restore it back. This right is guaranteed by history, human rights, even UN and international law.
Regards

But Jews don't have that right?

 

[Tumah]

I don't believe that Jesus-Christ as figured by what is called Christianity existed.

It's rorally wrong to say Jews reject Al-Masseh. Al-Masseh didn't bring a new religion. Al-Masseh was sent to take back Jews to the Law and a few changes. Accurate and new studies of history tells that there were many followers for Al-Masseh like Qumran community and early Unitarian. Unfortunately these groups vanished and resolved in both nations in Jews and Christians.

Its true that there were some splinter groups that believed in Jesus or some similar figure. But that's not the point. Today those splinter groups are gone and Jews don't believe in Jesus. The last of our prophets died 400 years before Jesus is believed to have lived. And according to those that say that a certain individual mentioned in the Talmud was Jesus, we don't think well of him either.

The point is that when you say "Muslims must love Israel except those those who reject alMasseh" then what you are saying is that Muslims are not required to love Israel today.

In all our prayers we pray for previous believers of all prophets سبقونا بالإيمان "Previous believers". They're inshaa-Allah in Paradise.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

Any one heard about any true prophet (Noah, Ibrahim...Mosa,...Almasseh, and Mohamed) and didn't believe him is not saved and will go to hill.

I already know that all non-Muslims go to hell according to Islam. I'm not sure why you are pointing this out here.

Love or hate is not the aim, the point is living together in peace even if you hate someone.
Regards

Then you probably should have chosen an ayah or hadith that said something about that instead of one that essentially is telling you not to love Jews.

 

[Limo]

That doesn't mean anything. Christians are also commanded to love their enemy and turn the other cheek and whatever other peaceful things. But that doesn't mean that they followed it historically or interpreted it as applying in every case. The same is true for Muslims and Caliphs.

No agreement .
What about Jews and Torah ?

That wasn't my point which is why I didn't bold it. I bolded the part where according to Caliph alAmir, the purpose of jiziya is to degrade dhimmi. That directly contradicts your statement that most issues against non-Muslims happened in the absence of the Caliphate. Here (and in other cases) it was the caliphate that instigated the cruel treatment of non-Jews based on their interpretation of Shariya - in this case, jiziya.

Caliphate Umar applied the Islamic Law.
If you see it's not a good law, I can't persude you with the oppsite but....
There is a law (good or bad), under the Islamic law, you'll never find personal Muslims kill, steal, attack, harsh women,,,, nothing like this. This is absolutely Haram in Islam. As long as the non-Muslim is under the Islamic Law, he's untouchable by Muslims. This is my point.

The Byzantines.

No, just the Byzantines (Christians).

You mean were people not of the ruling faith free to practice their religion? It was pretty bad for the Jews.

Fair enough, Muslims were welcomed at that time. Everyone was free to practice in Juraslim till British took over Palestine then Israel State.
You know that Byzantine Christians turned the Holy of Holies to dunk-hill and from time to time they were attacking Jews. Let us not discuss that we've turned Holy of Holies to Alaqsa mosque. We can discuss later.
The point is, There is a shine side of Muslims taken over the city.

In the post that you were responding to, the other poster had been talking about the invasion of Israel in 1948. Israel wasn't invaded by Palestinians in 1948, they were invaded by Jordan, Egypt Syria and Iraq.
Or to put it anyway, why did Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Iraw get involved with Israel in 1948, but not with Tibet, Crimea, or Cyprus - all of which were conquered by neighboring countries in recent history?

Arabs secular government are worse than non-Arab governments till date. It was a planned move to apply Security council 181 to partition Palestine between Palestinians and Zionists. It was part of the conspiracy.

But let me tell you something, Palestine is not Palestinian affair only, It's not even Arabic affair only, It's all Muslims affair. It'll be like this till end date. Even if Palestine authority approves any deal with Israel state, Muslims will not accept/recognize.

But Jews don't have that right?

I prefer to call Jews in Palestine as Zionists because there is even Jews sects in Palestine don't support Israel State.

Absolutely, Zionists and anyone has this right to defend their land against colonize or conquer
To answer you specifically of the Palestine case, Let me ask you a few questions:

• How many Zionists were in Palestine in 19th century ? How the number of Zionists changed since that date ?
• How much percentage of land Zionists owned during these periods till even 1948 ?
• Were there a closed geographic are in Palestine with Zionists majority ? What is the percentage ?

Regards

 

[Underhill]

So you're saying Iraqis are a wronged party???

No. I am not saying that.

But of course many of them will see it that way.

 

[Underhill]

By this logic, the Arabs have pushed many Christians (and members of other faiths), off of their traditional lands in the ME. In other words, the Arabs want the entire ME, and the creation of Israel is a convenient scapegoat. In other, other words, it's simply not the case that Arabs have legitimate historical claims to the entire ME.

Maybe so. I am not claiming they are right or wrong. But when one party moves in, with the backing of the worlds powers, against the wishes of those around them, it is not surprising that those around them retaliate in every way possible.

It's always struck me as a bit ridiculous the way Israel acts all affronted. Like Americans who get pissed off when Native Americans protest. We are just fortunate that our native population was mostly 'pacified' before modern terrorist tactics became the normal reaction to such behavior.

 

[Underhill]

I think it's less important to argue over history and more important to deal with the here & now on this. However, that being said, solutions are really hard to come by.

I agree. That is the hard part. Israel exist. That isn't going to change. The Palestinians certainly have valid reasons for being frustrated and wronged. The only solutions will leave both sides unhappy. And since Israel is so clearly dominant, they are unwilling to accept a compromise solution that will leave the Palestinians feeling only moderately rogered.

 

[Limo]

Its true that there were some splinter groups that believed in Jesus or some similar figure. But that's not the point. Today those splinter groups are gone and Jews don't believe in Jesus. The last of our prophets died 400 years before Jesus is believed to have lived. And according to those that say that a certain individual mentioned in the Talmud was Jesus, we don't think well of him either.

If you count prophet by books only, you might be right but I can't confirm the 400 years BCE date.
There are a big number of prophets between Mosa and Al-Maseh, I think all of them.
It's expected that there should be continuity of prophets not to be left without a prophet for 400 years.
No problem, I can't debate this point other than logic.
Allah told us in Quran that Zakaria who is Yahia's father. Yahia and Zakaria were sons of 2 sisters. Both Al-Maseh and Yahia were prophets.


Not for Christians, please don't read
Between me and you, let me ask a question.
Forget about this faked character Jesus-Christ.

The most doubted man all over the history who caused the biggest nation to exist is nothing in Jewish History.
He wasn't a fly or an insect.
He was a special Jew regardless of Pauline-Christinty.
Even if he's not Al-Masseh king of Jews, suppose he was a liar.
There should be something about him

The point is that when you say "Muslims must love Israel except those those who reject alMasseh" then what you are saying is that Muslims are not required to love Israel today.


I'm not sure what you're saying here.


I already know that all non-Muslims go to hell according to Islam. I'm not sure why you are pointing this out here.


Then you probably should have chosen an ayah or hadith that said something about that instead of one that essentially is telling you not to love Jews.

I'm not native English, my semantics sometimes is inconvenient.
Let me phrase it:

• We don't have such concept of love your enemy
• We've concept of living together
• Jews and Christians have a special rank. We can do manythings together that we can't do with others
• We can marry a Christian/Jew woman, We can eat your food. These are not allowed with others
  
• In Islam Love and prayer are for believers only
• Believers are all people since Adam who believed prophets of their date

Regards

 

[icehorse]

Fair. Agree."Islamic world was usually (but not always) safer than the Christian world"

What's your understanding of the Muslims' wars against the Hindus?

 

[icehorse]

• Jews and Christians have a special rank. We can do manythings together that we can't do with others

• We can marry a Christian/Jew woman, We can eat your food. These are not allowed with others

• In Islam Love and prayer are for believers only

How peaceful and tolerant this all sounds

 

[Limo]

What's your understanding of the Muslims' wars against the Hindus?

Although your question is out of context, as we can't discuss all Islam affairs here but I'll answer briefly.
Muslims wars are and were not against belief or believers.
Islamic wars are against regimes not persons.

I know the rational behind the question.
The big number of death Hindus during Islamic conquer to India is an exaggerated number and not documented.

Muslims of Caliphate under Islamic law never killed people massively or did genocide. It happened in law range but most of time during weaken not strong era.

 

[LuisDantas]

Everyone is a hero under his or her own parameters, @Limo

Everyone feels entitled to use whatever force feels confortable.

The Qur'an and Islaam are hardly any example of reasonableness or restraint by that parameter.