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Is the Bible a historical document?

Lynix

Member
Don't you think I came to bring peace upon thy earth. I don't came to bring peace, but the sword"
and to turn son against his father,etc. whatsoever.
Now this have to be read very carefully. It shows off clearly the character of jewsus. The one who doesn't love him more than his parents/loved ones is not worthy of him. I ask why? xians,jews,muslims are only the reason of earth's suffering and humanity low level spirituality.
 
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Lynix

Member
The entire Bible is an extremely powerful subliminal tool full of occult numbers, messages, allegories, and stolen material, which has been corrupted from ancient religions. In addition, this book has been infused with psychic energy and power to instill fear and to make it believable. When one's eyes are opened and one has the necessary knowledge, the *spell* will no longer be effective. The entire underlying theme of the Judeo/Christian Bible is the establishment of the fictitious history of the Jewish people in the mass mind. What the mass mind believes has power and the energy to make manifest in reality as thoughts are energy.
 

Awoon

Well-Known Member
The entire Bible is an extremely powerful subliminal tool full of occult numbers, messages, allegories, and stolen material, which has been corrupted from ancient religions. In addition, this book has been infused with psychic energy and power to instill fear and to make it believable. When one's eyes are opened and one has the necessary knowledge, the *spell* will no longer be effective. The entire underlying theme of the Judeo/Christian Bible is the establishment of the fictitious history of the Jewish people in the mass mind. What the mass mind believes has power and the energy to make manifest in reality as thoughts are energy.

Mass Mind Energy = God?
 

Jayhawker Soule

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Premium Member
otokage007, outhouse:
Let me ask you a quick question. I trust you to give honest answers.

What books on Syro-Palestinian archaeology and/or Israelite ethnogenesis do you own and have read?​
Thanks.

Some Finlkestien, quite a bit of Dever, and one other
Would you mind referencing the books. I almost certainly have them on hand, and if you do as well we could move to a specific evaluation of the text. At this point, all we can say is that neither Finkelstein nor Dever share your position.
 

Jayhawker Soule

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Premium Member
while david "may" have existed

what was written about him is pretty much mythology with ZERO historicity.

Jay, I do know better then to throw it all out. I understand the different amounts of historicty that apply.
Is it "ZERO historicity" or "different amounts of historicity"?'

You proudly claim to understand the minimalists and to stand with them. Fair enough. Would you agree with Finkelstein's assessment of Saul, David, and Solomon? Do you think he would define the books of Samuel & Kings as "pretty much mythology with ZERO historicity".

Finally, would you claim that Finkelstein's views on the matter reflects the consensus of scholarship and, if not, do you feel yourself competent to reject that consensus?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Is it "ZERO historicity" or "different amounts of historicity"?'

depends on which part of the legend

his name may have been passed down and hes legend definately are known mythology with zero historicity

he probably was a leader as well. but as written there is no historicity.

Would you agree with Finkelstein's assessment of Saul, David, and Solomon?

Ill stick to David as not to get overboard. As bandits? I think its a good hypothesis for what little is known.


Do you think he would define the books of Samuel & Kings as "pretty much mythology with ZERO historicity".

I have read him flat stating what we have on David is all mythology.


Finally, would you claim that Finkelstein's views on the matter reflects the consensus of scholarship

yes I do. For the minimalist.

there is no consensus between camps on early scholrships
 

Jayhawker Soule

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Premium Member
Is it "ZERO historicity" or "different amounts of historicity"?'
depends on which part of the legend

his name may have been passed down and hes legend definately are known mythology with zero historicity
So, "definately are known mythology with zero historicity"? Definitely known by whom? Can you cite a credible reference that states both (a) the legend is mythology with zero historicity, and (b) it is definitely known as such by scholars?

..., would you claim that Finkelstein's views on the matter reflects the consensus of scholarship and, if not, do you feel yourself competent to reject that consensus?
yes I do. For the minimalist.
You feel yourself competent to reject the scholarship of the majority of people who are experts in a field in which you are substantially unread. That demonstrates remarkable hubris.
 

Jayhawker Soule

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Premium Member
Again, from Mazar ...
In evaluating the historicity of the United Monarchy, one should bear in mind that historical development is not linear, and history cannot be written on the basis of socio-economic or environmental-ecological determinism alone. The role of the individual personality in history should be taken into account, particularly when dealing with historical phenomena relating to figures like David and Solomon (for recent theoretical discussions of the emergence of the Israelite state see Masters 2001; Joffe 2002).

Leaders with exceptional charisma could have created short-lived states with significant military and political power, and territorial expansion. I would compare the potential achievements of David to those of an earlier hill country leader, namely Lab'ayu, the habitu leader from Shechem who managed during the fourteenth century to rule a vast territory of the central hill country, and threatened cities like Megiddo in the north and Gezer in the south, despite the overrule of Canaan by the Egyptian New Kingdom. David van be envisioned as a ruler similar to Lab'ayu, except that he operated in a time free of intervention by the Egyptians or any other foreign power, and when the Canaanite cities were in decline. In such an environment, a talented and charismatic leader, politically astute, and in control of a small yet effective military power, may have taken hold of large parts of a small country like the Land of Israel and controlled diverse population groups under his regime from his stronghold in Jerusalem, which can be identified archaeologically. Such a regime does not necessitate a particularly large and populated capital city. David's Jerusalem can be compared to a medieval Burg, surrounded by a medium-sized town, and yet it could well be the centre of a meaningful polity. The only power that stood in David's way consisted of the Philistine cities, which, as archaeology tells us, were large and fortified urban centres during this time. Indeed, biblical historiographer excludes them from David's conquered territories. Short-lived achievements like those of David may be beyond what the tools of archaeology are capable of grasping.

< -- snip -- >

The mention of bytdwd ('the House of David', as the name of the Judean kingdom in the Aramean stele from Tel Dan, possibly erected by Hazel) indicates that approximately a century and a half after his reign, David was recognized throughout the region as the founder of the dynasty that ruled Judah. His role in Israelite ideology and historiography is echoed in the place he played in later Judean common memory.

- Understanding the History of Ancient Israel:West Semitic Inscriptions; (pp. 165-166)
Frankly, it's hard for me to understand how (or why) a substantially unread rank amateur would feel competent to denigrate such a perspective and expect others to view that stance as being at all credible.

Parenthetically ...
Recently Finkelstein has joined with the more conservative Amihai Mazar, to explore the areas of agreement and disagreement and there are signs the intensity of the debate between the so-called minimalist and maximalist scholars is diminishing. This view is also taken by Richard S. Hess, which shows there is in fact a plurality of views between maximalists and minimalists. Jack Cargill has shown that popular textbooks not only fail to give readers the up to date archaeological evidence, but that they also fail to correctly represent the diversity of views present on the subject. And Megan Bishop Moore and Brad E. Kelle provide an overview of the respective evolving approaches and attendant controversies, especially during the period from the mid-1980s through 2011, in their book Biblical History and Israel's Past. [wiki]
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
According to most historians, people like Adam, King David or Moses never existed. However, they all agree that Jesus was probably a real person.

As we all know, the Bible is not one book, but a collection of different books, written at different times, and with different genres. You can find documents that claim to be historical, documents that are apparently myths, poetry, prose... What is real and what not? Do you consider that the entire Bible should be taken literally as a strictly historical text? Do you think that only one part is real and the rest is fiction? Or perhaps you think that it is entirely a work of fiction set in a real time and real geographic place? And what are your bases to separate fact from fiction?

Comment!

The Bible does not claim to be inspired by men, nor did men speak of their own originality. (2 Timothy 3:16,17, 2 Peter 1:19-21) Archeologists often speak of the historicity of the Bible record. Nelson Glueck stated: "I have excavated for 30 years with a Bible in one hand and a trowel in the other, and in matters of historical perspective I have never found the Bible to be in error."
Calling the Bible accounts "myths" seems to be a popular pastime of many who can't prove their claims. Regarding David, at a mound called Tel Dan in northern Israel, a team of archeologists in 1993 found a basalt stone carved with the words: "House of David" and "King of Israel". The inscription was dated to the ninth century B.C.E.
The list of such confirmations of the Bible record goes on and on.

 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The fact that the Apocrypha exists makes the bible a work of fiction.

I would argue that the Apocrypha's exclusion from most Bibles proves that attempts to adulterate the Bible have failed. It is the Apocrypha that are works of fiction, not the Bible.
 

Jayhawker Soule

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Premium Member
The Bible does not claim to be inspired by men, nor did men speak of their own originality. (2 Timothy 3:16,17, 2 Peter 1:19-21) Archeologists often speak of the historicity of the Bible record. Nelson Glueck stated: "I have excavated for 30 years with a Bible in one hand and a trowel in the other, and in matters of historical perspective I have never found the Bible to be in error."
Others have. In my opinion, you do a disservice to the debate against mindless minimalism by foolishly representing the opposite.
 

Jayhawker Soule

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Premium Member
From Kevin McGeough:
The Bible is a heavily curated document, meaning that it has gone through significant editing to become the book that we know today. To uncover the complexity of the Biblical past certainly requires more than simply treating a Biblical verse as one would a scientific hypothesis (which was purposefully designed to be tested in a scientific fashion). The Bible is an extremely rich resource for scholars of the ancient past. But it needs to be treated as the incredibly complex resource that it is.
How then should an archaeologist use the Bible? We need to understand that archaeology and Biblical studies provide different types of information about the past. Instead of using one class of evidence to “prove” or “disprove” another, we should try to understand how the differences and similarities in the evidence can make sense together. By using as many types of evidence as we can and treating this evidence with the academic rigor expected of different fields of study, we then have access to multiple, potentially intersecting but rarely identical approaches to understanding the Biblical past.

McGeough, Kevin. “Archaeological Views: Should Archaeology Be Used as a Source of Testable Hypotheses About the Bible?.” Biblical Archaeology Review, Sep/Oct 2012, 28, 64.
Extreme caricatures on minimalism and maximalism are statements of faith. They do a very poor job reflecting the minimalist and maximalist positions and, in fact, do a disservice to both.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Again, from Mazar ...Frankly, it's hard for me to understand how (or why) a substantially unread rank amateur would feel competent to denigrate such a perspective and expect others to view that stance as being at all credible.

Parenthetically ...


and upon reading that it doesnt give Davids legends any historicity. Other the a David may have existed as a leader.


So, "definately are known mythology with zero historicity"? Definitely known by whom? Can you cite a credible reference that states both (a) the legend is mythology with zero historicity, and (b) it is definitely known as such by scholars?

You know as well as I do Finklestein claims Davids mythology in the bible lacks historicity. He does claim they are myths

he also states maximalist were out running around with a spade in one hand and a bible in the other trying to do archeology. its exactly why that group is fading fast and modern scholars grouping around the facts
 

outhouse

Atheistically
From Kevin McGeough:Extreme caricatures on minimalism and maximalism are statements of faith. They do a very poor job reflecting the minimalist and maximalist positions and, in fact, do a disservice to both.


Maximalist have no leg to stand on at all anymore.

and yes one cannot assert minimalism blindly, Im not.


Maximalist are a thing of the past with what is known.




lets ask you the serious question, can you give David "any more historicity" then a past leader of israelites who probably existed around 1000 BC ish???

and if so, what would you base that on.?
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Maximalist have no leg to stand on at all anymore.

and yes one cannot assert minimalism blindly, Im not.


Maximalist are a thing of the past with what is known.
The same thing has been said about minimalists. Not to mention, there are many other views out there as well. Finkelstein, for example, for quite some time, had settled between maximalists and minimalists. I'm not sure where he stands now, as I have heard varying opinions, but there is some middle ground, as well as varying ideas.

And maximalists really aren't a thing of the past. To disregard them simply is foolish, as much of the groundwork that current scholars use, were created by this group. The Albright school of thought (followed later by John Bright, who wrote a classic text on the subject), has deep influences on people. And in fact, there are still those who continue to follow some of the same ideas.
 

Jayhawker Soule

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Premium Member
Maximalist have no leg to stand on at all anymore.

and yes one cannot assert minimalism blindly, Im not.
:biglaugh:

Am I the only one that finds it both outrageous and hilarious that you actually think yourself qualified to pass judgment on the likes of Mazar and many, many more fine scholars. outhouse, you have every right to your articles of faith. Whether you have the right to presume yourself to be credible is another matter entirely.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
:biglaugh:

Am I the only one that finds it both outrageous and hilarious that you actually think yourself qualified to pass judgment on the likes of Mazar and many, many more fine scholars. outhouse, you have every right to your articles of faith. Whether you have the right to presume yourself to be credible is another matter entirely.

I think it's funny he refers to Dever, who actually has some pretty scathing critiques of minimalists.
 
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