Is the Crucifix blasphemous?

[idav]

You need to understand that the idol that is the subject of prohibition in the Ten Commandments, though, was worshiped as an object that had power, in and of itself. What we refer to as an "idol," isn't the same thing at all. The crucifix has no power in and of itself. It is a focal point for God's power -- not its own power.

No, it isn't, due to the reason I laid out above. Concentrating on an icon isn't the same as worshiping an object as a god.


What UV said about money is closer to the Ten Commandments version of an idol.

People put Jesus in front of even American Idols. If you get images and posters of Jesus it is idolatry simply put.

 

[F0uad]

The most funny part is that NO-ONE knows how Jesus(p) looked like mostly he is pictured with long blond hair and blue eyes, yet in reality he was Jewish...

 

[blackout]

I really don't see how a thing can be/act as an idol
unless it is an ACTUAL substitution for (the functions/purposes of) (your) 'god'.

Like applesause is an ACTUAL substitution for ... mmm... butter?
or yougurt might substitute for sourcream.
(I'm not a cook- but you know what I mean)

An idol must become AS (your) 'god' to you.

It must (also) 'do the trick'.
or 'get the job done'.
or 'be that'.


(feels like Patty. )

 

[rusra02]

One of the earliest contradictions I noticed growing up as a Catholic child was that of the Crucifix. One of the Ten Commandments, they would teach me in Sunday School , forbid the worshipping of "graven images". Then you would go into the main hall and behind the alter, loe and behold, would be a 9 foot tall statue of Jesus on the Cross, not to mention statues of Mary or other Saints. So I have to ask, wouldn't the Crucifix (not just a cross, but Jesus on the cross) and the saintly statues be considered "graven images"?

Yes, it would be considered image worship, and use of images for worship is consistently condemned in the Bible. (Exodus 20:4,5) The World Book Encyclopedia states: "in the Roman Catholic Church, images are venerated as symbols of the people represented by them." So the images are being worshipped. All this violates God's laws and the command at 1 John 5:21: "Little children, guard yourselves from idols." Also Isaiah 42:8.

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[sojourner]

So what you're saying is that to be a TRUE idol worshiper, you must be deluded into thinking the object you are staring at is God, or His power, in and of itself? You must think idol worshipers must necessarily be very stupid people.

No, what I'm saying is that the term used in the commandment, "worship graven image," means to believe that the object is a god (not God) and to imbue the object with power in and of itself (not of God). The object isn't God." It's another god.

Why can't the idol worshiper also see the idol as a focal point for God's power?

Because then, according to the definition implied in the commandment, it wouldn't be "idol worship."

Is it because you worship the TRUE God and they worship a fake one?

Yes. Idol worship means that you worship something other than God.

Couldn't these idol worshipers look at your place of worship and also say your idol is the wrong shape?

Sure they could. But idol worshipers don't venerate the commandments, do they!

Couldn't they also mirror the same feigned certainty, calling followers of your religion the stupid, deluded ones because they worship the TRUE God and you worship a fake?

Yep.

What I am most puzzled by is your reverence for the Ten Commandments. I said my piece on this travesty of power earlier in this thread.

What I'm surprised by is your misconception that I have any more reverence for the Ten Commandments than I do any other of the texts in the bible.

 

[sojourner]

In case my postion isn't clear, I'm saying the cross isn't blamphemous. I do not base this upon whether or not it is an idol, but rather that the original rule against idolatry was written with evil intent.

You'd have a real hard time proving your hypothesis.

Laws against blasphemy are man made, written by the authorities. Not God. The concept of blasphemy in itself is a mere mind control method.

You don't have any idea what you're talking about.

 

[sojourner]

People put Jesus in front of even American Idols. If you get images and posters of Jesus it is idolatry simply put.

No it isn't, because the posters and images do not contain divine power in and of themselves.

 

[sojourner]

Yes, it would be considered image worship, and use of images for worship is consistently condemned in the Bible. (Exodus 20:4,5) The World Book Encyclopedia states: "in the Roman Catholic Church, images are venerated as symbols of the people represented by them." So the images are being worshipped. All this violates God's laws and the command at 1 John 5:21: "Little children, guard yourselves from idols." Also Isaiah 42:8.

"Veneration" and "worship" are completely different activities, prompted by completely different attitudes.

 

[Scourge of the Gods]

There is a religious sect that does consider the wearing or display of the crucifix to be blasphemous. The name of the sect is International Ministry Growing in Grace, and it is headed by a Puerto Rican named Jose Luis de Jesus, who claims to be both the Second Coming of Christ as well as the Antichrist. What he means by this is that when Jesus died on the cross, he literally destroyed sin and the devil from existence, and therefore, the necessity of following the Mosaic Law was ended. Since Jesus, while he was alive on Earth, was a Jew who followed Mosaic Law, people are not supposed to follow his teachings, but instead, are supposed to follow the doctrine of grace as revealed to the Apostle Paul by God long after Jesus had already left Earth and ascended into heaven. According to de Jesus, even though the God that inhabits his body is the same God that inhabited the body of Jesus of Nazareth, he calls himself the Antichrist because this time, in his Second Coming, he teaches a new doctrine that replaces that doctrine that he taught the last time he was on Earth over 2,000 years ago as Jesus of Nazareth. Anyway, one of the beliefs that is taught by Jose Luis de Jesus is that people should not wear or display crucifixes because the cross i not a symbol of Christianity, but rather a symbol of a curse. He is quoted as saying "
The Bible says: "Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree (cross)" (Galatians 3:13). Then, why carry a cross that is symbol of curse and death?
Jesus Christ Man informs: "In today's day and age, if Jesus was killed in Florida, it would be done with an electrical chair. Then, the churches would have this electric chair as the symbol hanging from their ceilings….and people would carry replicas of this chair on their necks and rosaries." Anyway, I thought some of you might might enjoy finding out about how this bizarre religious sect views the crucifix. I think the Unification Church of Rev. Sun Myung Moon also considers it to be blasphemous to wear or display the crucifix, but I will have to look further into that.

 

[sojourner]

I think it would be really cool to have a miniature working guillotine hanging around your neck. why couldn't Jesus have been killed in France?

 

[Scourge of the Gods]

I never thought of that before. Wearing a miniature guillotine around your neck would be much cooler than wearing either a cross or an electric chair. I just remembered another interesting fact as well. The Jehovah's Witnesses actually don't believe that Jesus was crucified on a cross. They believe that he was impaled on a stake.

 

[Prophet]

You'd have a real hard time proving your hypothesis.

You don't have any idea what you're talking about.

I suppose that me having no idea what I'm talking about is a possibility. Let's rationally examine that.

My hypothesis is that the Ten Commandments were written by men. I supported this earlier.

Your opposing hypothesis seems to be that God reached down from the heavens and carved those tablets. I've not yet seen your support for your conflicting view. If I have misunderstood your view, feel free to educate me, but I wasn't impressed by your earlier ideas of what separates you from an idol worshiper. From where I'm sitting, you have no place to judge others' primitive views as yours are pretty primitive as well.

Amongst these two views, which seems more reasonable? Who seems to have no idea what he's talking about?

 

[sojourner]

I suppose that me having no idea what I'm talking about is a possibility. Let's rationally examine that.

My hypothesis is that the Ten Commandments were written by men. I supported this earlier.

Your opposing hypothesis seems to be that God reached down from the heavens and carved those tablets. I've not yet seen your support for your conflicting view. If I have misunderstood your view, feel free to educate me, but I wasn't impressed by your earlier ideas of what separates you from an idol worshiper. From where I'm sitting, you have no place to judge others' primitive views as yours are pretty primitive as well.

Amongst these two views, which seems more reasonable? Who seems to have no idea what he's talking about?

Not at all. I don't think the tablets -- or Moses -- actually existed. But you'll have to prove your allegations of "evil intent" and "mind control." The whole graven image injunction was part of an ancient purity code, to keep the Hebrew religion, culture and blood line from being assimilated by conquerors. That's not evil intent, or mind control. It's preservation of a culture in danger of obliteration.

 

[Prophet]

Not at all. I don't think the tablets -- or Moses -- actually existed. But you'll have to prove your allegations of "evil intent" and "mind control." The whole graven image injunction was part of an ancient purity code, to keep the Hebrew religion, culture and blood line from being assimilated by conquerors. That's not evil intent, or mind control. It's preservation of a culture in danger of obliteration.

Have you ever observed how a theocracy operates? I have not looked it up recently, but I'm pretty sure blasphemy is still a capital offense in the world of fundamentalist Islam.

What did you think of the setup for the handing down of the purity code in Exodus 19? Do you believe that God told the authorities to put anyone who passes the boundaries set around the mountain to death? Or is it more likely that the authorities told the people that God said to not pass the boundaries? Was it God or was it CONTROL?

What motive could God have for cutting off the mountain to exploration? Is God perhaps concerned that these people may touch "holy ground" with their unwashed feet? Or is it more likely that the authorities were setting up a giant fiery spectacle at the top of the mountain and didn't want anyone spying on the fake miracle?

 

[sojourner]

Have you ever observed how a theocracy operates? I have not looked it up recently, but I'm pretty sure blasphemy is still a capital offense in the world of fundamentalist Islam.

What did you think of the setup for the handing down of the purity code in Exodus 19? Do you believe that God told the authorities to put anyone who passes the boundaries set around the mountain to death? Or is it more likely that the authorities told the people that God said to not pass the boundaries? Was it God or was it CONTROL?

What motive could God have for cutting off the mountain to exploration? Is God perhaps concerned that these people may touch "holy ground" with their unwashed feet? Or is it more likely that the authorities were setting up a giant fiery spectacle at the top of the mountain and didn't want anyone spying on the fake miracle?

I think it most likely that they needed sacred space.

 

[Prophet]

So anyone who touches this sacred space needs to be put to death immediately without so much as an explanation? This does not make sense.

 

[Kathryn]

The injunction against graven images was against idolatry - worshipping other gods. It was not against images depicting God or saints.

 

[sojourner]

So anyone who touches this sacred space needs to be put to death immediately without so much as an explanation? This does not make sense.

I doubt that was actually real, either. Most likely part of the mythic tales.

 

[Prophet]

The injunction against graven images was against idolatry - worshipping other gods. It was not against images depicting God or saints.

If your leader's authority over you is supported a great deal by your belief in a sanctioned religion, the rise of other religions are a threat to his power structure.

If an authority says, "Do not do this, because God says so," his law is powerless over the one who does not believe in his god.

 

[Prophet]

I doubt that was actually real, either. Most likely part of the mythic tales.

Doesn't self damaging detail in the text support the truthfulness of said text?