Is the evolutionary doctrine a racist doctrine?

[Subduction Zone]

Well, being that you are more knowledgeable about these things than I am, I am reading something that says Neanderthals diverged from modern humans about 500,000 years ago. I have a couple of questions: What are modern humans and how did they diverge? And Neanderthals diverged FROM modern humans?

When two populations diverge it only means that they got separated somehow so that they no longer interbred. Separation can occur by many different means. For example just the act of spreading out to new continents can separate populations that left from those that stayed. Neanderthals left Africa about half a million years ago. "Humans" did not even exist then. But the population that we came from did. That was the start of Neanderthals evolving on their own. By the time we met up again we were having problems interbreeding. Their men could breed with out women, but since we have never found any Neanderthal mitochondria, the little cells within our cells that have their own DNA and comes from the maternal line, indicates that our men could not breed with their women.


Please note man left Africa only 60,000 to 90000 years ago. That is a much shorter time period. Though color differences arose, hair and noses changed too in some populations, but other than those mostly cosmetic differences we are still the same species with no problems interbreeding.

Neanderthals, and Denisovans left Africa at least 400,000 years before Homo sapiens. When populations are separated they each build up their own mutations that are not found in the other group. That is why, since we have deciphered the Neanderthal genome, that we can tell the two apart genetically.

 

[YoursTrue]

When two populations diverge it only means that they got separated somehow so that they no longer interbred.

From what I understand scientists to say, the Neanderthals became extinct. Their mtDNA, however, continues on. According to one report, Neanderthals are known to contribute up to 1-4% of the genomes of non-African modern humans, depending on the region of the world one's ancestors come from, and modern humans who lived about 40,000 years ago have been found to have up to 6-9% Neanderthal DNA. Modern humans, though, where did they come from?

 

[Subduction Zone]

From what I understand scientists to say, the Neanderthals became extinct. Their mtDNA, however, continues on. According to one report, Neanderthals are known to contribute up to 1-4% of the genomes of non-African modern humans, depending on the region of the world one's ancestors come from, and modern humans who lived about 40,000 years ago have been found to have up to 6-9% Neanderthal DNA. Modern humans, though, where did they come from?

No, that is not the mtDNA that is carried on. It is the nuclear DNA. The DNA that makes us into us. The mtCNA only controls the mitochondria. It will not change the shape of your nose. The Neanderthal DNA that we find is nuclear. I could probably find an article if you needed one.

EDIT:

"So far, we have no evidence of Neanderthal mtDNA lineages in modern humans"

Ancient DNA and Neanderthals

humanorigins.si.edu

 

[YoursTrue]

No, that is not the mtDNA that is carried on. It is the nuclear DNA. The DNA that makes us into us. The mtCNA only controls the mitochondria. It will not change the shape of your nose. The Neanderthal DNA that we find is nuclear. I could probably find an article if you needed one.

EDIT:

"So far, we have no evidence of Neanderthal mtDNA lineages in modern humans"

Ancient DNA and Neanderthals

humanorigins.si.edu

ok, so it is the DNA, or the nuclear DNA that modern humans, namely homo sapiens now, have inherited a portion of.

 

[YoursTrue]

When two populations diverge it only means that they got separated somehow so that they no longer interbred. Separation can occur by many different means. For example just the act of spreading out to new continents can separate populations that left from those that stayed. Neanderthals left Africa about half a million years ago. "Humans" did not even exist then. But the population that we came from did. That was the start of Neanderthals evolving on their own. By the time we met up again we were having problems interbreeding. Their men could breed with out women, but since we have never found any Neanderthal mitochondria, the little cells within our cells that have their own DNA and comes from the maternal line, indicates that our men could not breed with their women.


Please note man left Africa only 60,000 to 90000 years ago. That is a much shorter time period. Though color differences arose, hair and noses changed too in some populations, but other than those mostly cosmetic differences we are still the same species with no problems interbreeding.

Neanderthals, and Denisovans left Africa at least 400,000 years before Homo sapiens. When populations are separated they each build up their own mutations that are not found in the other group. That is why, since we have deciphered the Neanderthal genome, that we can tell the two apart genetically.

Sorry, I can only go over one point at a time. So -- if I understand you correctly, Neanderthals lived before modern humans, right?

 

[Subduction Zone]

ok, so it is the DNA, or the nuclear DNA that modern humans, namely homo sapiens now, have inherited a portion of.

The DNA that makes you you is also called the nuclear DNA. The DNA in the tiny little mitochondria that only control those mitochondria are the mtDNA. So yes, you have it right.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sorry, I can only go over one point at a time. So -- if I understand you correctly, Neanderthals lived before modern humans, right?

Yes, our ancestors were still part of the Homo heidelbergensis population.

Please note there is no hard line where people say this one is A, and this one is B. It is a slow gradual change so near the boundaries there will always be arguments of where the boundary, a purely human invention that has little to do with reality, lies.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, our ancestors were still part of the Homo heidelbergensis population.

Please note there is no hard line where people say this one is A, and this one is B. It is a slow gradual change so near the boundaries there will always be arguments of where the boundary, a purely human invention that has little to do with reality, lies.

So by the time homo sapiens were around -- how did they come about, by the way? I mean as a distinct species?

 

[YoursTrue]

When two populations diverge it only means that they got separated somehow so that they no longer interbred.

So these two populations (modern humans and Neanderthals) had interbred but then stopped interbreeding, is that right?

 

[Subduction Zone]

So by the time homo sapiens were around -- how did they come about, by the way? I mean as a distinct species?

All species are constantly changing. So even if the populations is the same the differences that have arisen over time may be enough to earn them a new species name. We came about just by the slow changes of the previous name holders until scientists decided to draw an arbitrary line.

Please note, if you have a species that has been evolving over millions of years and has still been the same population that differences can easily be great enough so that if one had a time machine one would not be able to interbreed with one's distant ancestors. At that point a new name is merited.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So these two populations (modern humans and Neanderthals) had interbred but then stopped interbreeding, is that right?

Yes, but only because Neanderthals went extinct. It is very difficult to breed once one has died. It is one of the major drawbacks of death.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So by the time homo sapiens were around -- how did they come about, by the way? I mean as a distinct species?

It may help to understand that the evolution into homo sapiens is a spectrum. It is not like one day, they were a different hominid species and the next day, presto chango you had the first man and woman. No, it's a slow gradual spectrum.

Now what do humans do when we want to discuss a spectrum? We divide the spectrum into pieces, and label the pieces. The boundaries of these pieces are pretty arbitrary.

For example, let's talk about the light spectrum. We divide it into colors: red, orange, yellow, green, blue and indigo. Or at least that is the standard colors we learn as children in American schools with our crayons and paint sets. But there are other cultures that only see two colors; let's call them warm (red orange yellow) and cool (green, blue, indigo). These other cultures simply divide the spectrum into two pieces, rather than six. Like I said, the divisions between these pieces are arbitrary, not objective.

In the same way, when we talk about the evolution of a "new species," we are talking about a spectrum, and the dividing line is arbitrary. So we can look at that spectrum and say, this set is Homo Habilis, and that set is Homo Ergaster, and this other set is Homo Erectus, and this set here i Homo Sapiens. But the truth is, there are no real dividing lines. Each gradually becomes the next. So there will of course be those fossils that do not clearly fit into the former or the latter. That would be normal, just as one might encounter a color that they are not sure is red or orange.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, our ancestors were still part of the Homo heidelbergensis population.

Please note there is no hard line where people say this one is A, and this one is B. It is a slow gradual change so near the boundaries there will always be arguments of where the boundary, a purely human invention that has little to do with reality, lies.

So it started with one type, or species, right? I should say it is supposed to have started with one type (or species). (Right?)

 

[YoursTrue]

It may help to understand that the evolution into homo sapiens is a spectrum. It is not like one day, they were a different hominid species and the next day, presto chango you had the first man and woman. No, it's a slow gradual spectrum.

Very gradual, from what I understand the theory to be.

Now what do humans do when we want to discuss a spectrum? We divide the spectrum into pieces, and label the pieces. The boundaries of these pieces are pretty arbitrary.

Somehow I figure that since they are not clear.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, but only because Neanderthals went extinct. It is very difficult to breed once one has died. It is one of the major drawbacks of death.

OK, so the Neanderthals died out for some reason. And only the homo sapiens were left. But the homo sapiens have Neanderthal DNA within them, right? Because they inherited that from way back when.

 

[YoursTrue]

All species are constantly changing. So even if the populations is the same the differences that have arisen over time may be enough to earn them a new species name. We came about just by the slow changes of the previous name holders until scientists decided to draw an arbitrary line.

Please note, if you have a species that has been evolving over millions of years and has still been the same population that differences can easily be great enough so that if one had a time machine one would not be able to interbreed with one's distant ancestors. At that point a new name is merited.

So like for instance there are groups that interbreed and produce people (homo sapiens) with short legs and arms and are noticeable by that. There are groups that produce offspring with typically long arms and legs (longer than usual) and are also noticeable that way. Same with dark skin or light skin. They are still within the group (species?) called homo sapiens, right?

 

[YoursTrue]

Yeah, it's late here -- g'nite folks. See ya tomorrow, or when circumstances allow. Thanks for discussion.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Very gradual, from what I understand the theory to be.

Somehow I figure that since they are not clear.

Think of the 24 hour day. It is the earth doing a full rotation on its access. Part of the time, a location on the earth is facing the sun. We call it day. and part of the time, that location is turned away from the sun. We call it night. But there is no hard boundary between day and night. The light fades and becomes darker and darker gradually. Now, when we compare noon to midnight, we see a clear distinction between day and night. But there are parts of the day that do not clearly fall into the day or night category.

In the same way, we can clearly have an earlier species and a later species. But there will be fossils that just aren't clearly one or the other, because the older one slowly slides into being the newer species.

Please tell me that this is making sense to you.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

OK, so the Neanderthals died out for some reason. And only the homo sapiens were left. But the homo sapiens have Neanderthal DNA within them, right? Because they inherited that from way back when.

We have it from the interbreeding. We do not think that Neanderthals were ancestors of Homo Sapiens. We think they are an alternative line of humans, like different branches growing on the same tree. Life is messy

 

[Subduction Zone]

So it started with one type, or species, right? I should say it is supposed to have started with one type (or species). (Right?)

When it comes to life there is always a chance for speciation. Any two populations separated long enough will by just random changes eventually become different species. I do not see why this is so hard to understand.