Is the God of Abraham Really That Special?

[Deidre]

Maybe in essence, we're all following the same God, we just have different views of Him. My faith celebrates and teaches about the truths of God in a way, that another faith might not, but maybe we are all following the same God.

 

[Skwim]

That is the essence of what "He" said.

No. The essence is: there are other gods out there, but don't you dare worship them.

Because he is OUR creator.

I think there are no other gods who care about you following them.

To tell the truth, considering all the personal suffering in the world I don't think any god is caring about any of us.

To follow in the way of God is like a marriage. The first commandment is stating that it will be no good to follow more than one god.

Actually, He's saying, don't follow any god but Him.

God is leading people out of the world.

With a huge dollop of indiscriminate suffering thrown in for . . . . for . . . . .Hmmm. . . . . . . . . . doesn't make much sense does it.
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[savagewind]

No. The essence is: there are other gods out there, but don't you dare worship them.

To tell the truth, considering all the personal suffering in the world I don't think any god is caring about any of us.


Actually, He's saying don't follow any god but Him.

With a huge dollop of indiscriminate suffering thrown in for . . . . for . . . . .Hmmm. . . . . . . . . . doesn't make much sense does it.
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I think that you usually do better than that......
but thank you for seeing me.

 

[Watchmen]

OK, so you admit the possibility that the deity you chose to believe in does not exist?

Sure.

 

[Glaurung]

Other gods do exist insofar as they are believed to exist and are worshipped by humans. But that alone doesn't imply that those other gods are real conscious entities, just that there are other "gods" which one could worship.

That text was written in a time and place where polytheism was the cultural norm for that part of the world, and thus the temptation to dabble in those religious systems would have been there. That's what the commandment is about. To go any further than that is reading into it. Secondly, Isaiah 45:5.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Sure.

That's encouraging. Most theists I discuss with will admit to no possibility of their god not existing.

 

[Watchmen]

That's encouraging. Most theists I discuss with will admit to no possibility of their god not existing.

Let me ask you then, do you admit to the possibility that god exists?

 

[Timothy Bryce]

The God of Abraham sucks.

 

[Timothy Bryce]

T

Let me ask you then, do you admit to the possibility that god exists?

That's a significantly less likely possibility. Like profoundly significantly.

 

[Skwim]

Other gods do exist insofar as they are believed to exist and are worshipped by humans. But that alone doesn't imply that those other gods are real conscious entities, just that there are other "gods" which one could worship.

No, but god's unqualified

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."​

does. If there were no other actual gods there would be no need to make note of them. At most, God would have said "Don't believe in any of the make-believe gods. There is only one actual god. Me." But he doesn't. As far as actual existence goes, He puts the other gods on equal footing in His first commandment. If these were simply imaginary gods His concern for those who believe in them would be of no more than the concern He has for the beliefs of the atheist or agnostic, which he doesn't address in His commandments. (His commandments were only made for the Hebrews. If they had been meant for others He would have given them to such people, which he never did.) In the context of what one worships, those who worship imaginary gods is of no more of concern to God than are the atheist and agnostic who sleep in late: He doesn't bother with them. However, what does concern the god of Abraham are those who worship those gods who are real.

That text was written in a time and place where polytheism was the cultural norm for that part of the world, and thus the temptation to dabble in those religious systems would have been there. That's what the commandment is about.

This is sooo lame.


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[SpiritQuest]

Consider the First Commandment:

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."​

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You are a unique perspective of the One Universal Consciousness who some refer to as the Ultimate Reality or God. What is an idol? It must be something that you deem important, It is your focus which determines your reality. Idols are like mental blocks that keep us bound in this perceptual status quo of materialism. Idols are not recognized for what they are as they obscure true vision and delay returning back to Source.

 

[Timothy Bryce]

You are a unique perspective of the One Universal Consciousness who some refer to as the Ultimate Reality or God. What is an idol? It must be something that you deem important, It is your focus which determines your reality. Idols are like mental blocks that keep us bound in this perceptual status quo of materialism. Idols are not recognized for what they are as they obscure true vision and delay returning back to Source.

I remember about 7 years ago, I was at a music festival where I hooked up with a chick who had a tattoo that said "love *****" on her abdomen. It was a fleeting moment where everything seemed to make perfect sense; I suppose that's the closest I've experienced an "idol" of some kind prompting me into some full sweep of universal, quantum consciousness. Either that, or I was just a seriously lost 21 year old kid lol.

 

[Didachist]

No, but god's unqualified

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."​

does. If there were no other actual gods there would be no need to make note of them. At most, God would have said "Don't believe in any of the make-believe gods. There is only one actual god. Me." But he doesn't. As far as actual existence goes, He puts the other gods on equal footing in His first commandment. If these were simply imaginary gods His concern for those who believe in them would be of no more than the concern He has for the beliefs of the atheist or agnostic, which he doesn't address in His commandments. (His commandments were only made for the Hebrews. If they had been meant for others He would have given them to such people, which he never did.) In the context of what one worships, those who worship imaginary gods is of no more of concern to God than are the atheist and agnostic who sleep in late: He doesn't bother with them. However, what does concern the god of Abraham are those who worship those gods who are real.


This is sooo lame.


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What this passage is speaking of is to worship and obey other gods, other gods do exist we as man make them we set them up we hope in them but these hopes are false, God does not place them on equal footing he is telling his elect to not do this, that they will not come to a good end if they do.

The passage you quoted from is not fully correct as it should say

From the Greek

23:24 Thou shalt not worship their gods, nor serve them: thou shalt not do according to their works, but shalt utterly destroy them, and break to pieces their pillars.

From the Aramaic/Syriac

Thou shalt have no other God beside Me. You shall not make to yourselves image or figure, or any similitude of what is in the heavens above, or on the earth beneath, or in the waters under the earth. You shall not bow down to them, or worship before them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God and an avenger, punishing with vengeance, recording the guilt of wicked fathers upon rebellious children unto the third and unto the fourth generation of them who hate Me; but keeping mercy and goodness for thousands of generations of the righteous who love Me, and who keep My commandments and My laws.

as for his commandments the first commandment was given to Adam and Eve be ye fruitful and multiply.
This was before a hebrew people, this is before the nations (gentile)

 

[Glaurung]

If there were no other actual gods there would be no need to make note of them.

Yes there is, because pagan worship was a very real temptation for the Israelites. Again, my position is that you're making a logical leap where there is no need to do so.

"Don't believe in any of the make-believe gods.

And you have to read the Bible as one progressive revelation because it does state explicitly that pagan deities do not exist. Or rather, to whatever extent the entities of pagan worship exist they are at most mere spirits. (Whose existence is never denied). Either way, the take home message is that pagan worship is ultimately futile.

If these were simply imaginary gods His concern for those who believe in them would be of no more than the concern He has for the beliefs of the atheist or agnostic, which he doesn't address in His commandments. (His commandments were only made for the Hebrews. If they had been meant for others He would have given them to such people, which he never did.)

The beliefs of those who surrounded and interacted with the Hebrews was a real concern, as it opens avenues for the temptation of pagan worship and thus a straying from the true God. God is basically telling his people not to have anything to do with any of it. Secondly, God did reveal himself to all, in Christ which includes the moral law as expounded by Christ. (The Ten Commandments are a summary) Of course that's a Christian reading, but you are dealing with a Christian.

But all that aside, I'll restate that your entire argument is predicated on a leap of interpretation which isn't actually implied. Especially in light of the Biblical text as a whole, not one decontexualized statement.

 

[savagewind]

@Skwim I shall assume that you are able to imagine.

Please try to imagine it is true about God; God is love.

Now, try to imagine that the truth about love is that it is patient and kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs, does not delight in evil , but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Please try to imagine it is true about God; God is Spirit.

Try to imagine that it is true God's spirit produces love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.....in a person and for a person.

Is there anything missing?

What is missing?

What might you add to it all?

Add something that does not accord with everything God is and they will be putting an idol before GOD.

God is Holy. Add to God and your god is no longer The Holy God.

 

[Flankerl]

What's the big deal? If you want to believe then do so. If you don't want to then don't.

 

[Tumah]

Consider the First Commandment:

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."​

What I've always found interesting is that this goes beyond a simple "have me," or some such commandment ordering people to obey and believe in Him, the God of Abraham, but that it implies the actual existence of other gods. "Yes there are other gods, but thou shalt have none of them before Me." If there were no other actual gods there would be no need to make note of them. At most, God would have said "Don't believe in any of the make-believe gods. There is only one actual god. Me." But he doesn't. As far as actual existence goes, He puts the other gods on equal footing in His first commandment.

So, up in the heavens or wherever, there are numerous gods floating around, or whatever they do, including the God of Abraham. He is just one of many gods, and, as it turned out, caught the ear of the ancient Hebrews and convinced them to forget all the other gods. That he is the guy to go to. Meanwhile, the other gods convinced other peoples of the world that each was the Grand Poo-bah of all the gods. So, His specialness only really derives from his say-so. He declared Himself to be the top dog, and you better believe it of else---to the Hebrews anyway. The rest of the people of the world he left to the other gods. OR, perhaps they left Him to the Hebrews. This isn't to denigrate the God of Abraham, but only to put Him in perspective.

So, other than personal bias and long inculcated beliefs, which have left Him ingrained into the minds of a lot of people that He's numero uno among all the gods, is there any realistic reason to accord Him such a position?

Why is His say-so more crediable than the say-so of any other god?


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This is an idea that gets lost in translation that I've repeated often. The word "elohim" more properly means "powers" or "forces". It can refer to anything really. The Tanach uses it for those that have power over life and death or finances: aka judges. It uses it for angels whose names indicate they have power over certain elements of creation. Moses, in whose hands lay the power to plague the Egytians and give power to Aaron's prophecy. And it uses it to refer to those things that were worshiped in those days: natural forces. A quick perusal of the Canaanite pantheon illustrates that the people in the neighborhood worshiped natural forces of the world: storms, the sun, the moon, the ocean etc.
Its from there that the word is used as a loan word to refer to gods or G-d, the Force behind all forces. So essentially what the verse is saying is "you shall not have other powers [of the sun, moon, harvest, death, etc.] on My face". These things exist, but don't treat them as though they are G-d.

 

[Skwim]

And you have to read the Bible as one progressive revelation because it does state explicitly that pagan deities do not exist. Or rather, to whatever extent the entities of pagan worship exist they are at most mere spirits. (Whose existence is never denied). Either way, the take home message is that pagan worship is ultimately futile.

Interested in the chapter and verse. What do you have?

The beliefs of those who surrounded and interacted with the Hebrews was a real concern, as it opens avenues for the temptation of pagan worship and thus a straying from the true God. God is basically telling his people not to have anything to do with any of it. Secondly, God did reveal himself to all, in Christ which includes the moral law as expounded by Christ. (The Ten Commandments are a summary) Of course that's a Christian reading, but you are dealing with a Christian.

Actually, if he revealed himself at all it was to only a handful of people in the world. That this "revelation" could be said to be ongoing, as is sometimes claimed, is interesting in that there remain millions of people who either haven't seen it or have seen it and rejected it. For an all-powerful god this ain't a very good batting average given He's had 2,000 years to get the job done..

But all that aside, I'll restate that your entire argument is predicated on a leap of interpretation which isn't actually implied. Especially in light of the Biblical text as a whole, not one decontexualized statement.

So, show us this Biblical text.


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[Skwim]

This is an idea that gets lost in translation that I've repeated often. The word "elohim" more properly means "powers" or "forces". It can refer to anything really. The Tanach uses it for those that have power over life and death or finances: aka judges. It uses it for angels whose names indicate they have power over certain elements of creation. Moses, in whose hands lay the power to plague the Egytians and give power to Aaron's prophecy. And it uses it to refer to those things that were worshiped in those days: natural forces. A quick perusal of the Canaanite pantheon illustrates that the people in the neighborhood worshiped natural forces of the world: storms, the sun, the moon, the ocean etc.
Its from there that the word is used as a loan word to refer to gods or G-d, the Force behind all forces. So essentially what the verse is saying is "you shall not have other powers [of the sun, moon, harvest, death, etc.] on My face". These things exist, but don't treat them as though they are G-d.

This "the words in the Bible, or the Tanach, don't really mean what they signify because they've been mistranslated," is one of the more lame arguments for defending one's theology. If a word doesn't carry the meaning we've come to understand then what is it doing in the Bible? Why does such a misleading word remain in the Bible so as to continue to mislead? What's wrong with Bible publishers that they can't correct the scripture to reflect its true meaning? Furthermore, such a mistake casts doubt over everything else in the Bible. If Exodus 20:3 is in error then what other pieces of scripture are misleading us? A common reply is that any such mistakes wouldn't be significant, but, of course, this argument is so self-serving as to be ludicrous. In the end, mistakes in translation, or whatever form they may take, only point to the conclusion that god either doesn't really care what his Bible says---even if it misleads---or he's incapable of making sure "His word" is correct and doesn't mislead.


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[Tumah]

This "the words in the Bible, or the Tanach, don't really mean what they signify because they've been mistranslated," is one of the more lame arguments for defending one's theology. If a word doesn't carry the meaning we've come to understand then what is it doing in the Bible? Why does such a misleading word remain in the Bible so as to continue to mislead? What's wrong with Bible publishers that they can't correct the scripture to reflect its true meaning? Furthermore, such a mistake casts doubt over everything else in the Bible. If Exodus 20:3 is in error then what other pieces of scripture are misleading us? A common reply is that any such mistakes wouldn't be significant, but, of course, this argument is so self-serving as to be ludicrous. In the end, mistakes in translation, or whatever form they may take, only point to the conclusion that god either doesn't really care what his Bible says---even if it misleads---or he's incapable of making sure "His word" is correct and doesn't mislead.


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You'll have to ask translators why they do it, not me. I notice that nuance often gets lost in translations. Perhaps they just don't care? I - like most other Orthodox Jews study Tanach in Biblical Hebrew, so I don't really deal with translations except when someone links it on this site. If I have a question about the meaning of a word, or how it differs from the meaning of another similar word (like elim, elilim and elohim or the example here) I don't check a translation, I check this book here written by a 19th century Rabbi, Hebrew grammarian and commentator. That's where I know this from.

This is not a question of Scriptures misleading you, but of translators misleading you. The word "god" isn't in the Bible. The word אלהים is the word that's in the Bible. Its the translation that you have issue with. And frankly, you won't hear knowledgeable Jews arguing in favor Christians translations. I can give you a few places off hand where they fudge the translation to favor Christian theology.

I can understand that being from a completely different root language then English, its hard to incorporate nuance every time and still maintain a flowing translation. And this is nuance, since the word is being used to reference the things that people were worshiping - which is what you call 'gods' in English. But ultimately, your question is on them to answer.