Is the God of the OT and the NT the same God?

[Brickjectivity]

I'm trying to read the Bible and as I was reading, this question popped into my head. Is the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament the same God? Or are they different?

How to Read the Bible and Still Be a Christian: Is God Violent?

A relevant book which speaks directly to Christians on this subject.

 

[Dawnofhope]

It isn't muddy, worshipping a man as god is directly where Christianity totally divests from Judaism. That Islam only worships one god and doesn't worship their prophet is why it is more like Judaism than Christianity.

The problem is Jesus never claimed to be God, as the Christians claim.

 

[wizanda]

The problem is Jesus never claimed to be God, as the Christians claim.

He claimed to be the spirit of the Lord, said the House of Prayer was his, said the Children of Israel cast out demons by him, that he was the Lord of David, etc.

The problem comes from both Rabbinic Judaism, and Islam not recognizing the Bible started as a similar theology to Hinduism, with one God Most High (El Elyon) similar to Brahman, and then a council of Elohim similar to Avatars.

 

[Dawnofhope]

He claimed to be the spirit of the Lord, said the House of Prayer was his, said the Children of Israel cast out demons by him, that he was the Lord of David, etc.

The problem comes from both Rabbinic Judaism, and Islam not recognizing the Bible started as a similar theology to Hinduism, with one God Most High (El Elyon) similar to Brahman, and then a council of Elohim similar to Avatars.

How did you connect the Bible to Hinduism?

 

[wizanda]

How did you connect the Bible to Hinduism?

We don't connect the Bible directly to Hinduism, that would be very confusing.... We take the concepts, examine them independently, and compare the similarities in theology.

In Ancient Hebraic times, when we examine earlier Biblical texts, and look at surrounding beliefs, such as the Canaanites...

We could think the Hebraic texts are henotheistic, which quite a few scholars have done; yet that is intermingling Canaanite understanding into the Biblical texts.

If we examine the Biblical text on their own, El becomes YHVH, and then becomes Yeshua, we see this happening with Avatars in Hinduism.

YHVH is a representation of the Most High, and says that it is one, similar to what we find Krishna doing.

There are multiple references within the pre-Babylonian exile Biblical text, that are referring to a Council of Elohim, as we find in Hinduism about the Avatars.

Though saying Hinduism, we could do this with many ancient schools of thought, Greek, Roman, Egyptian, etc.

God is One, yet then has a divine council of Elohim, Arch Angels, Elders, Avatars whom all sit within Oneness....

This is what i know from my own NDE as well; personally think people have just got confused over time, even though the texts still shows this theology.

 

[jtartar]

I'm trying to read the Bible and as I was reading, this question popped into my head. Is the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament the same God? Or are they different?

Edit: And could you please state how?

SearchingForGod,
Definitely, the God of the Hebrew Scriptures is the same God of the Greek Scriptures. This can easily be understood by the things in Jesus life.
All through the Hebrew Scriptures Jesus is spoken of as coming, about his birth and many things he would do, to fulfill the Law Covenant and replace it with the New Covenant, Isaiah 9:6,7, 11:1-9, Isaiah,chapter 53, Matthew 1:1-25 tells us the geneology of Jesus, his birth.
Here is where a problem shows up. In the Hebrew Scriptures, the Personal name, or Proper name of God was recorded almost 7,000 times. God's Personal name or Proper name, as recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures was YHWH, or JHVH, as can be seen in many Dictionaries and Encyclopedias. These letters, called The Tetragrammaton, are Pronounced Jehovah, in English.
The problem comes because the Greek translators did not use God's personal name,because, by that time, because of a superstitious belief of the Jews, that it was wrong for an imperfect person to say God's name, they started using the Titles God or Lord instead of God's Proper Name. This causes a real problem even today, because sometimes, it is hard to tell if the writers were speaking about God or Jesus. There are many places where the Greek Bible translators quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures where God's personal name was used, but they still translated the Titles God or Lord.
When Jesus was born, The God of the Hebrew Bible sent Gabriel, a special Angel messenger to let Mary, his mother know what was to happen. Then, when Jesus was baptized God, Jehovah spoke from heaven about His son, Matthew 3:16,17.
When Jesus was praying to his Heavenly Father, at John 17:3, Jesus said that it means our Everlasting life to come to Know, the Only True God,and the one He sent, Jesus Christ.
These Scriptures show that the God of the Hebrew Scriptures is the same as the God in the Christian Greek Scriptures.

 

[Aberamentho]

I'm trying to read the Bible and as I was reading, this question popped into my head. Is the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament the same God? Or are they different?

Edit: And could you please state how?

This debate is as old as the Marcionites, followers of Marcion who popularized Paul and probably wrote many of the letters himself. Either that or Paul really did call the 12 Apostles "false apostles of Christ" and "Judaizers" as well as being the only alleged Pharisee to ever write the Law (of Moses from his meeting with God) "was ordained by angels."

Effectively demoting the God of Moses to angelic status was picked up by the Sethian Christians everyone calls the Gnostics, who named YHUH: Ialdabaoth/Samael (Jewish name of Satan) and Saklas, the quasi-demiurge who believes that he is God but was incapable of creating mankind without the help of the Aeons and didn't actually create the Universe or earth, Sophia created earth to hide him, he created other defective earths, actually poorly reproducing things in existence is the limit of his creative powers.

And many Gnostic critiques found in the Nag Hammadi texts about the portrayals of God in the Tanakh are shared by Muslims, even though technically it is talking about YHUH, the Qur'an doesn't portray God/Allah/YHUH like that.

So the ultimate answer is a question:

Do you believe the Sethian Christians who repudiated vicarious atonement and were loyal to the 12 Apostles?

Marcion who is responsible for the popularity of Paul who is the origin of the Yahweh is an angel/archon theory, but rejected the 12 Apostles because they were loyal Jews?

Or the Bible itself?

I would recommend Nag Hammadi because at least you can buy a book of actual scripture.

 

[Aberamentho]

No, they are not the same.

Answers like this and it's opposite settle nothing. You are stating an opinion only, what ever happened to giving some effort to support your opinion? Not everyone agrees with you and the earliest traditions all say that the God of the Bible is the Father of Jesus (pbwh) including Jesus himself who said he was the Messiah of the Israelites.

The God of the Israelites is the God of Jesus who he calls his/our "Father." Certain Jews he accused of serving Satan which gets taken out of context as if it says "All Jews worship Satan so Yahweh is Satan."

But that is abusing the spirit of the letter, and not what is meant, as any competent literate can read for their self.

Other than saying "no" to the question you have done nothing. Which is basically the same thing as having no proof to offer and not doing so, but believing in your opinion more than what is written.

If Jesus (pbwh) says that the God of the Jews is his Father, he is. And he does say it, many times, making me wonder how much of the Bible you have actually read.

Because there is 0 support for your theory, except if you interpret Paul's "the Law was ordained by angels" as saying God is an angel.

Paul was a false apostle anyway, but he was just not that educated, because the Bible clearly contradicts Paul, who doesn't have a thing to do with Jesus (pbwh) other than the corruption of his movement.

If you have proof of what you say from the Bible, present it (I will counter it anyway and correct the error, there is no proof) but if not.

It's an opinion without merit.

 

[Aberamentho]

I'm trying to read the Bible and as I was reading, this question popped into my head. Is the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament the same God? Or are they different?

Edit: And could you please state how?

Yes, they are the same.

It was not the Greco-Romans who were waiting for a Messiah to liberate the Judeans throughout the generation before (and during and after) Jesus (pbwh), who was a Judahite.

2 of his Apostles of which 12 were chosen to honor the 12 tribes, were Zealots or one Zealot (Simon of Cana) and Sicari (Judas Iscariot/Sicari).

His brother James was a Zaddik, a righteous sage and a title used by Jews today for particularly righteous (if even theoretically) persons also called "Pillars" as were John, Peter-Shimeon and James (pbwt).

James men were "Zealous for the Law" according to Acts. That'd be the Law of Moses.

The reason it seems like they may be different is the Gospels are Roman re-writes of the Nazarene/Ebonite account, Paul's epistles are mostly if not all forgeries and anti-Israelite, and the Romans persecuted Jewish Christians as Jews if they refused to forsake the Law of Moses and dispense with being Jewish, so they fled to Syria, Arabia and Africa.

I imagine most Nazarenes/Ebionites in the time of Epiphanius lived outside the jurisdiction of Rome, hated Rome, as in the first century.

Probably they converted to Islam, which is almost the exact same beliefs held by the anti-Pauline Ebionites and Nazarenes.

There is a group called the Mandaeans/Nazarenes (reserved for priests now) that revere John the Baptist and despise Jesus (pbwh) and Adonai(Yahweh). But they didn't have anything to do with the Bible and their literature isn't very great or well preserved, I have it, the Ginza Rabba, and they consider themselves to be Gnostics. Murky history but they do speak Aramaic.

They don't worship the OT God.

Jesus did (pbwh). What more proof do you need? Was Jesus not the Jewish Messiah?

He was. Why are there no Jewish Nazarenes today? Heretic hunters and probable conversion to Islam as it was essentially what they believed already but more prosperous.

 

[Akivah]

We don't connect the Bible directly to Hinduism, that would be very confusing.... We take the concepts, examine them independently, and compare the similarities in theology.

For the record, this methodology is called cherry picking. You take the concepts that support your beliefs and discard the concepts that don't.

This is what i know from my own NDE as well; personally think people have just got confused over time, even though the texts still shows this theology.

Yes, I saw your earlier posts in which you claim the basis for your superior understanding of G-d is due to your personal near death experience. I have some questions about that:
1) Do you believe that G-d is unable to effectively communicate with people when they are healthy?
2) Thousands of people have near death experiences and have different opinions about G-d than you do. What makes your NDE so unique?

 

[Aberamentho]

The problem is Jesus never claimed to be God, as the Christians claim.

The funny thing is Judaism has no longer any claim to being monotheistic with many declaring the Shekhina (presence of God) a Goddess rather than just the feminine aspect of YHVH-Elohim. This is not official by any means but is significant because you never know what Jews really believe, it seems to change at the whim of the Rabbis and Talmudists/Kabbalists.

Islam has far more in common with true Christianity (ie no Trinity, Jesus is not God as the Bible itself is clear about as is Jesus (pbwh) himself) according to the Gospels than it does Talmudic Judaism.

Islam teaches what Jesus (pbwh) taught. Only God in Heaven is God or "Our Father" as Jesus (pbwh) puts it, the Prophets (pbwh) are messengers, human messengers, with Mohammed (saw) His last Messenger.

It's my interpretation that "...not peace (salaam/shalom) but a sword." refers to Mohammed (saw) who did everything the Jews expected their Messiah would do, in the fashion of Cyrus, eventually paving the way for the return to Palestine of the Jews under Muslim rule. Not every Jewish tribe was against Mohammed (saw) and many became Muslims as did Christians.

If Christianity eliminated Pauline theology and the Trinity, it would be Islam almost.

 

[Akivah]

The funny thing is Judaism has no longer any claim to being monotheistic with many declaring the Shekhina (presence of God) a Goddess rather than just the feminine aspect of YHVH-Elohim.

I've never seen or heard anything like this. Please provide a link or source for your statement.

P.S. I just did a web search for 'Shekhina worship'. Every site that comes up is Christian.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I'm trying to read the Bible and as I was reading, this question popped into my head. Is the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament the same God? Or are they different?

Edit: And could you please state how?

Yes. God just had a schizoid break resulting a massive and permanent shift in numerous fundamental personality traits between part 1 and part 2.

 

[wizanda]

For the record, this methodology is called cherry picking.

Cherry picking would be taking a point out of the religious infrastructure, removing it from its own Tree, and placing it on another; when they're both the same Tree, it is just perspectives.

Do you believe that G-d is unable to effectively communicate with people when they are healthy?

We see this in the Bible of God leading people, and then personally having experienced miracles all the time that defy a normal sense of time, as the things thought happened before i knew i needed them....If this can happen to me, God is working in everyone's life.

Thousands of people have near death experiences and have different opinions about G-d than you do. What makes your NDE so unique?

Truthfully the NDE isn't the proof, the rest of my life has been...

Around 4 years old would dream the Tribulation, Known since 5/6 the New Testament was corrupt, and would go over it at 25 with a big magnifying glass to try sharing it....

Knew Yeshua didn't say 'I Am', as remembered the character from Heaven...

So the NDE just confirmed some of what already knew; yet gave me a bit better comprehension of the dynamics of reality, having seen some of the wiring under the board.

 

[Aberamentho]

I've never seen or heard anything like this. Please provide a link or source for your statement.

P.S. I just did a web search for 'Shekhina worship'. Every site that comes up is Christian.

Try going to a Jewish source.

Better yet, Google Shekhina Goddess.

Because Shekhina worship is just God worship, but the feminine aspects of God.

It's a rather recent development in Kabbalah to consider, as some do, the Shekhina to be a Goddess.

Google the two words I said to and you will find it.

Shekhina worship is just God worship, which is why you found nothing. When the Shekhina is dubbed a Goddess you will hit paydirt.

I will do it too.

 

[Aberamentho]

I've never seen or heard anything like this. Please provide a link or source for your statement.

P.S. I just did a web search for 'Shekhina worship'. Every site that comes up is Christian.

Also strange as Christianity has nothing to do with the Shekhina unless it is to criticize it (and everything under the sun).

They are not reliable sources. I mean Christians. Most don't know anything about the Shekhina or even their religion. They are seduced by the prospect of being "saved by faith" rather than being decent or even righteous people. In general.

 

[Aberamentho]

I've never seen or heard anything like this. Please provide a link or source for your statement.

P.S. I just did a web search for 'Shekhina worship'. Every site that comes up is Christian.

I only had to type Shekhina Godd- it suggests the rest for you and will lead to numerous websites you will have to sort through.

What is interesting is Shekhina is the Holy Spirit in Judaism. Christians call this blasphemous.

But if you read the quotes from the so-called Gospel of the Hebrews Jesus (pbwh) says, "My Mother, the Holy Spirit...."

In Syriac Recognitions of Clement (Aramaic dialect, ante-Nicene MSS. exist in Greek and Latin but the Syriac is likely the oldest for several reasons) Peter calls the HS "Her."

So if anyone has issue with it they are out of sync with Peter and Jesus (pbwt) without even a clue! Because Jerome said this is only because the word Spirit is feminine, Christians accept it if they know.

That would account for "She" not "My Mother" and if that were the case it also applies to "My Father."

Which means both are metaphors.

 

[Akivah]

We see this in the Bible of God leading people, and then personally having experienced miracles all the time that defy a normal sense of time, as the things thought; happened before i knew i needed them.

OK, so you recognize that G-d speaks to everyone not just to you. So why are your experiences the only ones that can be used to identify G-d? Don't other people's experiences provide a basis for their own beliefs that differ from yours?

Truthfully the NDE isn't the proof, the rest of my life has been...{snip}

So the NDE just confirmed some of what already knew; yet gave me a bit better comprehension of the dynamics of reality, having seen some of the wiring under the board.

Okay, so your own NDE isn't really relevant either. So what is it about your own life that is so unique that it provides you with the only truthful knowledge about G-d?

 

[Akivah]

Try going to a Jewish source.

Better yet, Google Shekhina Goddess.

Because Shekhina worship is just God worship, but the feminine aspects of God.

It's a rather recent development in Kabbalah to consider, as some do, the Shekhina to be a Goddess.

Google the two words I said to and you will find it.

Shekhina worship is just God worship, which is why you found nothing. When the Shekhina is dubbed a Goddess you will hit paydirt.

I will do it too.

Okay, I found some non-Christian sources.

There was an article written by Ilil Arbel, Phd, describing the worship of the Shekhina by Jews. Ms Arbel's Phd is in Mythology and Folklore. So I wouldn't consider her to be influential to many Jews or even to Judaism.

Another article was written by Debbie Grejdus. I'm not sure of her learning or religion, but she wrote her article for a site that is all about women.

To base your claim of "The funny thing is Judaism has no longer any claim to being monotheistic with many declaring the Shekhina (presence of God) a Goddess" based on these non-authoritative sources is quite a stretch.

Individual Jews can believe a whole lot of things, and none have any bearing on negating the concepts of Judaism.

Because Shekhina worship is just God worship, but the feminine aspects of God.

You are correct here. But your conclusion is wrong. An attribute of G-d is not a separate G-d. If we pray for G-d's Mercy, that is G-d's feminine attributes. If we pray for G-d's Justice, that is G-d's masculine attributes. It is still just one G-d. G-d's feminine attributes are not separate entities from G-d.

 

[wizanda]

Please help. I can't make any sense of this.

Miracles happen in everyone's life, God is working and communicating in someway with everyone; if they notice and listen is the question.

so your own NDE isn't really relevant either.

Everything is relevant in the right contextual need.

So what is it about your own life that is so unique that it provides you with the only truthful knowledge about G-d?

Why is mine the only truthful knowledge; each religion have their own truthful knowledge from God.

As for the Biblical side of things, how can i convince you of anything, if we can't even get past the basics on Yeshua fulfilling prophecy?