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Is the hijab unnecessary?

Doktor

Metal head!
Not sure how you see muslim society from far away. Let me give you few examples:

- I came from what is considered very free family in saudi arabia with a lot of multi-cultural marriages. When I was a kid, there was only one or two girls in our family wearing Hijab, in family gather. No one ever forced a belief.

- Funny enough, (and now speaking in forced values in general) many of my friends when they were teenage, let's say they used to complain about society values, and wants to get access to pleasures (discos, partying, unlimited freedom). Today, when they grow up, and they truely have full freedom and money to spend on anything they desire, they changed to the opposite. They are all moderate Muslims. But, they do go to Mosques every friday, and every night of ramadan. They do believe in Hijab. They adhere to a lot of Islamic values. They seek many 'enriching' islamic values in their daily life.

As i wrote:
And i equally admire the men and women that after decades of indoctrination, false superstitions, forced beliefs, and in some cases fear. stand up and gets out of their religious group/system because it wasn't for them. This applies to ALL religions to!

It applies to all religions. Not that im saying that everybody is being forced to believe in a god, But it happens sometimes. specially for children.
Dont you agree that breaking away from something like this i admirable?
Equally admirable and respect generating as women who choose to wear / not to wear their Hijab.
 

ameen

Member
----------
Hello, ameen.

<<I had to add, it is not only the physical act of Hijab, it is the heart of it as well.>>
<<
You'll have to elaborate on that.>>
Ok. I have to explain it in more general term. Wearing Hijab is part of worshiping God.
Doing my fasting or prayers rituals are also worshiping God.
We are made of body and souls. Everything in Islam takes care of both. When I pray, I should have my will inside the heart, that I am doing for God.

In Islam, humans take things from outside and God take it for both, outside and inside, as only God knows what goes inside heart.

So, you will find people who give charity, to appear generous in front of others, he has no attention of God in it. This is useless in terms of rewards. If he give it with the right heart intention, it will be of great reward.

Girls might wear Hijab, as a habit, as a culture, as pressure from family, as full conviction, as an obedience to God. No one can go inside hearts, but being from this culture, we can tell in many to most cases from which category this girl is.


<<However, the Hijab is standardized in it's design, with the exception of colour they're pretty-much identical>>
Not really. There is a big fashion among Muslim girls on Hijab.
Some of these fashion conflict with Hijab concept (like very tight cloth)
but a lot Hijab fashion does not.


<<The only "message" I get from such a thing (if I were to judge off first-impressions of her clothes) would say "I am Muslim, and I value the use of the Hijab"....>>
Well, the message I get from wearing Hijab:
- I am Muslim, and I have good faith, and I am not available if you are thinking other way around.

There was a story of a french girl who converted to Islam. She went through the usual struggle of finding her truth, and read a lot about Islam. She had to do the final step, to convert officially, which is a big decision. She started to wear Hijab (just to try it) though she is still non-Muslim. She felt more self-conscious as Hijab will get attention in Europe more than normal cloth.

She was coming alone on subway train late night, she was alone in that side of train. Few drunk loud guys came there. Unfortunately, they were North African Muslims, and there are a lot in France (some are good and cool and some bad). She started to panic "My God, I am Lost".

The guys saw her, and it looks like they felt ashamed they are drunk (they know inside it is wrong but still likes pleasures). They said "Salam Alaikum" and kept quiet and respected her. She was so touched, and that was the last push to convert to Islam.

Of course, this story can go to any direction of the guys didn't have that "good seeds" in their heart. But my point is, that hijab conveyed the right message that time: "I am a Muslim committed to my faith"

So if you had the same Woman wear the Hijab the first time around (on a date, for example), and you thought she was great - would you think the exact same of her if she were to not wear the Hijab, or didn't wear the Hijab the first time around?
Well, my marriage was family oriented, but not arranged. You can call it matching, then family dating. Ur Q is still very valid.
- Faith, personality, mindset and appearance, unexplainable chemistry are the factors that would made me decide on my right match.
- In that context, Hijab comes as part of Faith, Personality and Appearance.

I remember asking my wife the first few days I knew her: "what if i insist you don't wear it?" , "why do u wear it?", "what if u got that impulsive temptation to not wear it?". At the end I love the person who got principles and values.

It is basic psychology, behavior and motive, like the ice berg, what's visible is only small part of it.

If she was not wearing Hijab, I would still consider meeting her. Knowing my wife, I would still marry her.

Let me elaborate:
- A girl might not wear Hijab, but they think it is the right thing.
- A girl might not wear Hijab, if you ask her, you won't get reasonable answer. Most likely she does not have enough details of Islam practices. Most likely she is loose in other parts of religion.
- A girl might not wear Hijab, and she denies that a girl should wear it in the first place.

And these are not hypothetical examples. The first two are very common.
The third is common in secular Muslim countries, or very rare in other muslim countries.


Of course, hijab wasn't the only thing i cared about.

LOL, but to be fair that's more of a contradiction: no "liberal" Husband would deny his Wife the freedom to wear religious clothing, but I know what you mean.
lol, exactly. this why I put (liberal) in brackets.
In our society we got some people who see themselves "liberal" but they impose their ideas in close minded way.

In general, in my opinion, you can meet:
Very strong faith muslim, very open minded
Very strong faith muslim, very close minded
Secular Muslim, open minded.
Secular Muslim, close minded.

I have two things to say about your Olympic example:
Ok! My point was that men and women are of different nature, and they need different dress codes.

Just as it would be if you were to debate with a Female who was very intelligent and very well-mannered (and if you like intelligence and politeness in a Woman) to think to yourself "Damn, she's intelligent and very polite, that is so hot right there!". However, actually telling a Woman that, can have many different consequences, mostly negative LOL, so yeah, with regards to thinking if to yourself, is it really that bad?
if that girl had the magical power to read thoughts. She might think of men who she met as:
- He is an angel
- well mannered
- Normal
- OH!
- Sick
- SICK
- I have to run away

What I want to say, that these things are not tangible. But, Islam asks us to not dwell into negative thoughts and make it part of our mindset.

And this is not only towards females, this is heart things in general:
If a Muslim heart is full of too much doubting others, hating others, envious, imagination, jealousy ...... then, the outcome might not be good (in judgement day). God only will judge.

And have to admit, many Muslims follow worship and rituals, without paying a lot of attention to the inside.


However, if a Muslim girl, has faith in her God and religion, and this is a dress code that is appropriate to wear (for certain reasons), then she would do it for allah. It is a common dress code.
I don't quite understand what you mean here, perhaps you could re-phrase that sentence?
Ok, I like your debate. You are a non-muslim and look into things from neutral angle. This why I am explaining Islam point of view on Hijab and all the meaning behind it.

But for us, it is very different point of view. We don't suddenly come only to Hijab idea out of no where
It comes from very different mind-set.
- I believe in Allah and in Mohammad (also all prophets)
- I believe in and i practice Islam and it makes sense to me
- I believe that God put a lot values of what's right and wrong, and what to do and what not to do
- When I take a certain ritual, let's say Zakat (mandatory charity if you have certain minimum amount of capital). I have to pay 2.5% annual charity.
The principle in general makes a lot of sense.
The details of it, is kinda useless to debate. Why is it not 2%, why it is not 3%??
Why I pray 5 times not 4 or 6?
- So, in Hijab for a girl who is fully convinced: she has full faith in religion and God. She agree in principles of having decent cloth and modest appearance.
Allah asked her certain application of it. This why she follows it.

Q. Is this important? Isn't the faith in heart is enough? Each will do as he likes?
A. There are the mandatory do and don't. Then, there looong list of optional things.
Also, it is important to keep the religion. If you allow human freedom to select rituals, in 200 years you will end up in very different religion.
Ad political power and human greed into it, you will end up with very very very different religion.
It worth mentioning, that there are a lot of flexibility in Islam (but the basic skeleton is very solid to keep its identity and origin over different cultures and eras)

Last word:
Many people oppose to Hijab. Many people link Hijab of being oppressed or uneducated. They portray one look of women in Hijab, Niqab or 100% cover.

Why don't you see examples and debates of the bright side of Muslim women?
There are plenty, and once I pass 15 posts, I will put a lot of links.

I hear often Muslim women in certain country are not allowed to vote.
Give me a break. Muslim men in same country are not allowed to vote.
Islam however, gave this option to men and women since 1400 years.

If you find a negative image of Muslim woman, directly see her full environment. Most like you will see many negative aspects in their life: mostly lack of education and economy or it is the culture sometimes.

The reason is not Islam and Hijab.

 
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ameen

Member
As i wrote:

It applies to all religions. Not that im saying that everybody is being forced to believe in a god, But it happens sometimes. specially for children.
If you believe milk is healthy for the bones of you children, then you give it to them everyday when they are kids. When they grow up, you have no say on them, but you can still influence with (with convincing dialogue, that milk is good coz o 1, 2 and 3.

If i let my kid with no bones, he will select M&M and candies.

I believe, (with full conviction) that this path is good. So, I teach it to my kid. I know when he grow to 18 or 20, i cannot force him. I have to be convincing or I lose 'faith' connection with him.

Dont you agree that breaking away from something like this i admirable?
Equally admirable and respect generating as women who choose to wear / not to wear their Hijab.
No compulsion in religion. This is a rule in Islam.
I have my choice to pray or not.
I have my choice to fast or not.
Girl has choice to wear Hijab or not

God says context of selecting the right path:
[SIZE=2.2] [/SIZE][SIZE=2.2]Have We not made for him a pair of eyes? (8) [/SIZE][SIZE=2.2]And a tongue and a pair of lips? (9) [/SIZE][SIZE=2.2]And shown him the two ways (good and evil)?

So, each one got full choice, a (responsible) choice.
God says: this is path1, this is path2
You have the choice to select either.

Don't I have full choice in my job to perform or not?
However, I am responsible about those choices, and their consequences?
[/SIZE]
 

Bloomdido

Member
Mmmm. I see it as a trade off. Some women use their 'sexuality' to their advantage. Others are exploited. There is still a lot of mysogeny about in any culture you care to examine. I hate the fact that a pair of tits decorates page 3. We do objectify women and then wonder why some men don't understand the boundaries.

Less than 100 years ago, a woman in Britain could not leave her husband without losing her children. Women were put in asylums by their husbands. Women couldn't vote. Much progress has been made but there are attitudes to be changed. Domestic abuse has only been taken seriously by the police in the last 20 years. The courts are still woefully inadequate in prosecuting rapists. Look at the way the church reacted to women priests. I think that the whole mother / whore polarisation of women really doesn't help the situation.

I don't know too much about islam but it seems pretty backward to me. I have little hope for change. What about Pakistani women though? Lots of horror stories there too about abuse, arranged marriages, beatings, traditional female roles.

There seems to be such a strong sense of tradition and women are regularly killed by family members if they choose to have a relationship outside of the faith. Why is it such an issue for these people. I canot begin to comprehend what would drive a man to kill his daughter because she had shamed his family. There needs to be proper education in schools. Religious belief needs to be challenged and faith schools need to be banned. Then women may begin to stand a chance.

Religious tolerence? Why? Look at the cost in human misery.
 

ameen

Member
Interesting article here and website here (but currently being redeveloped).

Thanks for posting this. This is a great opportunity to clarify the Hijab values vs. misconception.

Now, I see those picture and I feel aweful. However, I wonder, why in the hell would a highly intellectual british journalist who went to Afghanistan and meet such women convert to Islam?

Her name is Yvonne Ridley, she was captured by Taliban army. They thought she is a spy. When she knew she was just a journalist, they released her free. She promised the officer that she would read the Quran.

When she did so, she converted to Islam, her stories all over the web, and she got her own web site explaining her ideas.
Home*-*Yvonne Ridley, Former Taliban Captive, Convert to Islam

After she studied the Quran, she wondered, how Taliban and his people got some ideas (related to violence and women)? As she see just wonderful concepts in Islam that convinced her to become Muslim.

Now, this story of this woman is aweful. However, what is the motive behind this story?
- It is to make you feel these people are very aweful.
- They need a big hero to set them free. "Super USA please come over"
- Did this story is aligned with the rape stories of Iraqi women by American soldiers? I saw some aweful pictures, but I would never post them here.
- Did this story comply with Abu Ghuraib story? Was Abo Ghuraib a result of few psycho or an interrogation techniques with certain process and approvals?
- Did those abo ghuraib criminals got proper punishment?
- Abu Ghuraib is just a shy incident compared to the many crimes.
- Why did these reports come in 2009 and not in 1984?
- In 1984, Afghanis were heros. Do you remember the Afghani famous eyes in national geographic? It was 1984.

&#1611;Let me give you another angle of Hijab:
Hanan Al-Turk was a famous celebrity in Egypt with a lot of guys had a crush on her. She was cute, with everything a girl would dream of. She had the citylights and under spotlights. She was the Meg Ryan of Egypt (but not as funny as Meg).

Hanan decided that she her heart from inside is empty. She needed something different in her life, more meaningful rather than being just a picture

She decided to wear Hijab.
Hanan Al-Turk in Hijab
Hanan is only one of many Egyptian celebrities with such story.

Now, how much this story and image is aligned with the Afghani women?

http://www.alsowar.com/thumbnail/artists/14492
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
ameen said:
So, you will find people who give charity, to appear generous in front of others, he has no attention of God in it. This is useless in terms of rewards. If he give it with the right heart intention, it will be of great reward.

Are you saying here that the underlining factor which bases charity as useless or usefull is whether or not the person giving, gives so with a God in mind?

Girls might wear Hijab, as a habit, as a culture, as pressure from family, as full conviction, as an obedience to God. No one can go inside hearts, but being from this culture, we can tell in many to most cases from which category this girl is.

True, no-one can go inisde hearts, well actually, Doctors can LOL but I know what you mean: no-one can truely go inside the mind/intentions of another. In that case, I'd like to say that it is therefore impossible to determine why any Woman truely wears the Hijab, so I think it is impossible to objectively "catagorize" such a thing.

Not really. There is a big fashion among Muslim girls on Hijab.
Some of these fashion conflict with Hijab concept (like very tight cloth)
but a lot Hijab fashion does not.

Out of interest, why does Islam support Hijabs, and why do you? What source is Islam relying on in order to support the idea that the Hijab (and not just any other garment that covers the breast and vagina) is a piece of clothing acceptable by Allah's standards?
Also, why does it promote modesty, can modesty be truely defined though? If so, what kind of modesty?

- I am Muslim, and I have good faith, and I am not available if you are thinking other way around.

What do you mean by "I am not available"?

There was a story of a french girl who converted to Islam. She went through the usual struggle of finding her truth, and read a lot about Islam. She had to do the final step, to convert officially, which is a big decision. She started to wear Hijab (just to try it) though she is still non-Muslim. She felt more self-conscious as Hijab will get attention in Europe more than normal cloth.

She was coming alone on subway train late night, she was alone in that side of train. Few drunk loud guys came there. Unfortunately, they were North African Muslims, and there are a lot in France (some are good and cool and some bad). She started to panic "My God, I am Lost".

The guys saw her, and it looks like they felt ashamed they are drunk (they know inside it is wrong but still likes pleasures). They said "Salam Alaikum" and kept quiet and respected her. She was so touched, and that was the last push to convert to Islam.

Of course, this story can go to any direction of the guys didn't have that "good seeds" in their heart. But my point is, that hijab conveyed the right message that time: "I am a Muslim committed to my faith"

This story brings three points to my mind. One of them is that, according to many Muslims I've talked to, the gang of Muslims you mentioned would have infact not been Muslim - because they were drunk, and in accordance to the Sharia, they probably would've been severely punished. The "good seeds" as in, the part where they didn't act disrespectfull, to me isn't because they are Muslim, that quality is noticeable in any person who is decent enough. I would have done the same if I were drunk in the presence of a religious (or any other person), I wouldn't say "Salam Alaikum" (mostly because I don't know what it means), but I wouldn't cause trouble when drunk, and don't to this day.

The second point is something slightly off-topic, but somethnig that I've noticed alot with how people act around very religious people - I've noticed that for some reason, people find it neccessary to (by default) respect a religious person, like a Priest or Nun etc. I think it is the result of living under the rule of a Church, or other religious authority, that over time and past down generation to generation, has become subconscious in all of us. I used to be like that as a kid - there was this "thing" in us tat made us feel obliged to give "respect" to someone heavily religious. I don't agree with it though, as I think people should not be given unconditional respect - people shoud earn respect, and I've met plenty of nasty religious people who deserve no respect from me. That's not a shot at Theists in general though, I'd never give unconditional respect to anyone.

The third point, is that the aspect of a Woman being howled, or harassed by Men, to me isn't a problem with the Woman, or how she's dressed, but instead a problem with the Men and their discipline. I believe rather than wearing a Hijab to cover up Women to make them less "tempting" or to act as some sort of "respect enabler" is a bad idea in my opinion, I think that just like Men, Women can be and should be respected for who they are, for their personalities and actions - not what they wear. This isn't just about Muslim Women and Hijabs, but everyone in general. Even Goths and Emo's in the West, who get ridiculed for "Dressing like a freak" because they don't conform to common dress styles, or Women in the West who get called "sluts" just because they show a lot of flesh in their clothing. A Man would never be called a **** for walking around topless, or for wearing trunks, so I think a Woman should be given the same privilage - to be allowed to walk around topless and to wear bikinis without being called "sluts". OR, I think that if Women arn't allowed to wear bikinis/topless, then Men shouldn't be allowed to wear Trunks/topless - as long as it's equal. Although given that in very hot climates, clothing can be very hot and cause discomfort, I'm more likely to think being topless or wearing "revealing" outfits should be made legal and seen as appropriate, on a Beach or in on'es backyard during Summer time etc.

To me, the solution is bringing up our young Males with discipline and a sense of restraint and respect, otherwise, they'll grow up very valnurable to veiwing Women as sex symbols. Just like with tempting food, let's pretend we have a chocolate cake (Woman), the chocolate on the outside is her looks, and the sponge on the inside is her personality: we should teach people to excercise self-restraint and resist temptation, not just cover up the chocolate and pretend that only the sponge is there. Some people at first may get too tempted with the chocolate, but if brought up correctly, they can see past their primative sexual lusts (which in their minds, is what makes the chocolate so tempting, the chocolate itself isn't tempting) and appreciate the sponge, and the cake for what it is. A lot of African people have managed that, there many many Women are topless, and the Men simply do not care because they're used to it, they see past it, and they're taught self-restraint and not to think "I want I want". But a Western Male, or Muslim Male would notice it too much, and would probably not be able to control his sexual lust.
 
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Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
Ok! My point was that men and women are of different nature, and they need different dress codes.

But the difference is though, that the Olympic design is for a physical advantage via a scientific design, the Hijab and man's clothing is to conform to a sense of "modesty", but "modesty" is subjective, so it cannot be treated in the same way as a design that minimizes friction whilst swimming - because friction in swimming is objective.
Also, why is the "type" of modesty different between the Man and Woman? The Woman preserves "body" Modesty, but the Man preserves "Wealth" Modesty, why arn't they the same? Also, the Woman has to wear the Hijab, the Man only has to not wear Gold or Silver. See the difference between the has and has not, even though they're both supposed to "preserve modesty"?

What I want to say, that these things are not tangible. But, Islam asks us to not dwell into negative thoughts and make it part of our mindset.

Why would thinking a Woman is attractive be a negative thing? It's not only about looks as I've said. I'm sure you find your Wife attractive, is it really bad to find things attractive in another person? If so, why?

Allah asked her certain application of it. This why she follows it.

I know I asked this in one of the above paragraphs of this post, but what is Islam and you referring to, where/when did Allah say this? Is it a Koran reference of Hadith thing etc etc?

Islam however, gave this option to men and women since 1400 years.

The right to vote since 1400 for both Men and Women? I not aware of such a thing, perhaps you could provide me with a source of evidence please?

If you find a negative image of Muslim woman, directly see her full environment. Most like you will see many negative aspects in their life: mostly lack of education and economy or it is the culture sometimes.

This is something I believe a lot in, I believe it is the Soil, not the Seed. Basically, the enviroment, not the individual. Our enviroments shape who we are, so that can be said for all people, including Westerners. Just like with how things are very sexualized in the West, well, can you blame us? Every day, from school to adulthood, it's all SEX SEX SEX! In the media, in the magazines, on the TV, on Radio, on advertisements etc etc. Although not that I'm trying to say you view the West as sex-mad, or that Western people are Sex-Monsters, I'm just giving you an example of how one's enviroment shapes them. Although it's not 100%, so not every Western is what Muslims steriotype them to be, and not every Muslim is what a Westerner would steriotype them to be, etc.

I think a lot of it comes from what our country want us to think about each other, as if we're "bred" to hate oneanother. As if every Westerner is some "immoral" sex-maniac who's gonna burn in Hell, and every Muslim is a violent Woman-oppressing Terrorist. This leads to negative stereotypes and hatred between groups of people, but, we're all the same underneath. Society A, wanting it's people to hate Society B, so that they'll prefer and feel more comfortable living (and working for) Society A, rather than B - a vice-versa.
 
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ameen

Member
-----
When I commented, i didn't look into the article in details, i just saw the picture
but, i thought something more in that article, OH MY GOD:

If this sounds harsh, consider that Sharia adultery laws state that a raped woman must face the next-to-impossible task of providing four male witnesses to substantiate her allegation or be convicted of adultery.
Wrong. Evidence of rape should be as per any modern evidence. However, punishment is more serious in Islam.


Actually accusing a woman of adultery without having the evidence itself is a crime by itself in Islam.



In Saudi Arabia, women live in a theocratic state that stops them walking unaccompanied in the street,
EXCUSE MEEEEEEEEEEE?
THIS IS A LIE
I am from saudi arabia
if i go outside my house at midnight, i see women coming and going
walking is not part of daily habits, for men and women


speaking to men outside the family.
EXCUSE MEEEEEEEEEEEEE?
THIS IS A LIE


but then it hit me: half the population of Saudi Arabia is kept behind walls, all the time.
i come from a normal medium family,
- my wife used to work (she is out of work temporarily)
- my sister in law is a dentist
- my female cousin is a doctor
- my female cousin is a phd holder and she teaches in Univ. in Saudi
- my female cousin is a phd holder from london and she teaches in Univ in Saudi
- my aunt is 60, she got her own business
- my aunt died out of 80 years old, she used to ran her own small business till her health declined few weeks before she passed away.

these are only very few examples, from a normal family.
many times i go and visit art gallery exhibition done by women
-----------
now saudi arabia and many other countries (including most western) have women issues in different forms. THE THINGS MENTIONED IN THIS ARTICLE IS NOT ABOUT DEBATING DIFFERENT OPINIONS, BUT, THEY ARE EXPLICIT LIES.

I accept that this may seem an odd thing to wish for, but what the world needs now is an uncompromisingly militant feminist movement.
Now, this is the most interesting part. militant feminist movement.
After WMD had no trace, a mistake that caused about one million people lives, the author suggests a war to free women??????????

I might be missing something here. But, if she is serous, i think she is not any better than any terrorist organization member mentality.

Less than 100 years ago, a woman in Britain could not leave her husband without losing her children.
&#1611;well, in islam, a woman has the right to have custody of children after divorce.
while she is raising the children, it is the obligation of the father to spend on them

This is the general rule. There are exceptions on many different conditions (mother or father are not qualified or unstable or sick ...etc)

What about Pakistani women though? Lots of horror stories there too about abuse, arranged marriages, beatings, traditional female roles.
By chance, today i was talking with my pakistani colleague on islam in pakistan in general. Now let me say, that Pakistani people are among the most wonderful. They have warm family bonds, decent women, humble men.

The biggest problem in pakistan however is, education and poverty.

My friend was telling me that 70% of population lives in rural areas, and illiterate. They don't know how to read and write, and don't know much about Islam beyond basic rituals. They are humble people with difficult conditions.

With such honest heart, illiterate level and poor conditions, they make the best recruits for any terrorists. You might find horrible women stories (i have not heard personally) but it comes out of ignorance, and nothing out of ISLAM.

The Pakistani families and crowd that have at least normal income and minimum level of education are really wonderful, and I love a lot the way the family look.

And time after time, i was impressed by their female professional skills in workplace.




Religious tolerence? Why? Look at the cost in human misery.
 

ameen

Member
Are you saying here that the underlining factor which bases charity as useless or usefull is whether or not the person giving, gives so with a God in mind?
in order to be rewarded with your worship of God (charity or other) you need to have that intention inside your heart. And God reward us with our intentions. Let's say I wanted to go to give charity and I had accident and went to Hospital, I get that reward of charity despite it never happened (since my heart had the true intention of doing it).

Also, why does it promote modesty, can modesty be truely defined though? If so, what kind of modesty? What do you mean by "I am not available"?
This is not the description of Hijab in Islam, but rather, general virtues that can be observed from a true Mohajaba (girl wearing Hijab) who does it from her heart.
Let me explain:
I have a relative, she used to live normally, partying and enjoying life.
Overtime, she started to be more relegious, then decided to wear Hijab.
After a while, she started to be very active: she has a charity network, she educate old illeterate women in the community. She do lectures in many positive thinking and changing of behaviors. The whole meaning of life changed.

Now, not every girl is that active. But a girl who does it from heart, you find something special about her, something inspirational.

Not Available: well, lets say i am a guy who is looking to flirt with girls. When I see girl who is Mohajaba, I would know, she will not be into casual relations.

The third point, is that the aspect of a Woman being howled, or harassed by Men, to me isn't a problem with the Woman, or how she's dressed, but instead a problem with the Men and their discipline.
well, this why in islam, it is responsibilty of both, the women on how she dress, and the man in how he think and not to stare.

to make them less "tempting" or to act as some sort of "respect enabler" is a bad idea in my opinion, I think that just like Men, Women can be and should be respected for who they are, for their personalities and actions - not what they wear.
Exactly! This is the whole idea, is to dwell into physical attributes as People cover magazines.
i state again adn again, a girl who is not wearing Hijab might take my respect more than a girl wearing Hijab. This why I always stress on the "heart"


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ameen

Member
Why would thinking a Woman is attractive be a negative thing? It's not only about looks as I've said. I'm sure you find your Wife attractive, is it really bad to find things attractive in another person? If so, why?
these are normal thoughts, and encouraged between spouses,
what i meant is the very bad type of thoughts.


I know I asked this in one of the above paragraphs of this post, but what is Islam and you referring to, where/when did Allah say this? Is it a Koran reference of Hadith thing etc etc?
Yes, from the Quran

The right to vote since 1400 for both Men and Women? I not aware of such a thing, perhaps you could provide me with a source of evidence please?
It worth mentioning, that the political system and rights in Islam were more advanced 1400 and 1300 years ago than now. Women involvement in political issues is only one of them. Just system is what impressed a lot.

Anyhow, there is something called "Bay'ah" this is when a leader (or ruler) take the leadership and people should give him "Bay'ah". It is often translated is like giving oath, but it is not exactly that. It is like giving "agreement" for commitment or accepting that leader.

There is political "Bay'ah". However, during Prophet, it was given, that he was revealing words of God. So, he was leading. It was a Faith Bay'ah. It was very important, and considered one of important events of Islam preaching during prophet time. He was preaching in Makkah 13 years with being oppressed, threatened, and faced assassination conspiracies. Muslims had to go to another city, Madinah.

They were not allowed to go to Makkah. Infidels in Makkah kept threatening and trying to stop the Islam. Finally, after 8 years, Muslims went back to Makkah which surrendered totally.

Prophet set every body from the enemies in Makkah free. People started to enter Islam in big groups despite (No compulsion in religion).

So, Prophet did 3 Bay'ah's, one of them were only for women, and called "Bay'ah of the women"
The Quran says:

[SIZE=2.2][SIZE=2.2]O Prophet! If believing women come unto thee, taking oath of allegiance unto thee that they will ascribe nothing as partner unto Allah, and will neither steal nor commit adultery nor kill their children, nor produce any lie that they have devised between their hands and feet, nor disobey thee in what is right, then accept their allegiance and ask Allah to forgive them. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (12:60)[/SIZE][/SIZE]

Now, why was that important? Coz they went into Makkah, which is very new into Islam. And all of those vices were common among non-muslims: adultary, killing (female) new borns and stealing.

Of course, there were no voting polls and ballots, but the concept is the same.

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Bloomdido

Member
Ok, lets look at this from another angle. If I wanted to get to know a woman or few from the Muslim faith, get an understanding of their views on life and check out that they were ok with their place in the scheme of things, where would I go? Where do they hang out?
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
ameen said:
in order to be rewarded with your worship of God (charity or other) you need to have that intention inside your heart. And God reward us with our intentions. Let's say I wanted to go to give charity and I had accident and went to Hospital, I get that reward of charity despite it never happened (since my heart had the true intention of doing it).

But do you accept the fact that a non-Muslim, or an Atheist can still give to charity for good reasons, and make a generous contribution, without any intention of worshiping, or God? Or, if one gives charity with no intetnion of God in it, is it then worthless?

Now, not every girl is that active. But a girl who does it from heart, you find something special about her, something inspirational.

But the exact same "active" character can be found in an Atheist person. Just because one is religious or wears a certain garment doesn't mean only they are capable of leading such an inspirational life, or of giving to charity and doing good causes etc.

Not Available: well, lets say i am a guy who is looking to flirt with girls. When I see girl who is Mohajaba, I would know, she will not be into casual relations.

Again though, this is about what the Male (you) thinks of when seeing a Woman. If he's only wanting to flirt, then yeah I'd guess most Women regardless of what they wear will be "unavailable". If a Woman doesn't want to flirt with some random guy on the street, it's not because she's wearing a certain piece of clothing, it's because she simply doesn't want to flirt. Also, even if she's wearing a Hijab, you have no idea what she may be like personality-wise, and she may infact be a very "liberal" Muslim, and may infact like casual relationships.

Wearing a Hijab doesn't universally mean "I'm not available" because what she's referring to has yet to be defined. What is she "unnavailable" for? Maybe she doesn't want to flirt, maybe she doesn't want Male friends, but maybe she does want a nice committed Husband. So if the guy who sees her actually is a nice guy who would make a great, committing Husband, then in many way he might infact be "available" for her, if she finds him desirable. As I said before, the "I am unavailable" is based off a "guess" that all the Man is thinking is "I want to flirt/have casual relationship with her", although that might not be the case.

But again, it's all down to the Man's self-control, a Woman shouldn't have to hide herself just because some Men don't know how to act responsibly around them.

well, this why in islam, it is responsibilty of both, the women on how she dress, and the man in how he think and not to stare.

I don't agree with this though, I don't think it should be a Woman's responsibility if a Man cannot control his primitive sexual urges. I think rather than pandering to these urges, we should teach our Males to excercise self-restraint.

Imagine if you lived in a Gay community, and all the Gay Men found you attractive, would you be willing to cover yourself up in a garment that even covers your face, just because they can't control themselves? So they howl at you and stare at you - big deal, it just shows that they're idiots and they need to be taught how to behave.

Exactly! This is the whole idea, is to dwell into physical attributes as People cover magazines.
i state again adn again, a girl who is not wearing Hijab might take my respect more than a girl wearing Hijab. This why I always stress on the "heart"

I understand, but I also know that regardless, you hold the value of a Hijab in higher regard than no-Hijab, it is a preference to you. Why? Everything you've stated, like being mature, active, helpfull, "modest" (Modesty cannot be defined, it is subjective) charitable etc, all can be achieved/found in an Atheist Woman who doesn't wear a Hijab.

these are normal thoughts, and encouraged between spouses,
what i meant is the very bad type of thoughts.

What kind of "bad thoughts"? What's the criteria on when a thought is no longer "acceptable" and is now "bad"? BTW this question is in relation to how one finds their opposite sex attractive etc.

Yes, from the Quran

Could you please provide me with a reference, along with a "Sahih" interpretation?

It worth mentioning, that the political system and rights in Islam were more advanced 1400 and 1300 years ago than now. Women involvement in political issues is only one of them. Just system is what impressed a lot.

Anyhow, there is something called "Bay'ah" this is when a leader (or ruler) take the leadership and people should give him "Bay'ah". It is often translated is like giving oath, but it is not exactly that. It is like giving "agreement" for commitment or accepting that leader.

There is political "Bay'ah". However, during Prophet, it was given, that he was revealing words of God. So, he was leading. It was a Faith Bay'ah. It was very important, and considered one of important events of Islam preaching during prophet time. He was preaching in Makkah 13 years with being oppressed, threatened, and faced assassination conspiracies. Muslims had to go to another city, Madinah.

They were not allowed to go to Makkah. Infidels in Makkah kept threatening and trying to stop the Islam. Finally, after 8 years, Muslims went back to Makkah which surrendered totally.

Prophet set every body from the enemies in Makkah free. People started to enter Islam in big groups despite (No compulsion in religion).

So, Prophet did 3 Bay'ah's, one of them were only for women, and called "Bay'ah of the women"
The Quran says:

[SIZE=2.2][SIZE=2.2]O Prophet! If believing women come unto thee, taking oath of allegiance unto thee that they will ascribe nothing as partner unto Allah, and will neither steal nor commit adultery nor kill their children, nor produce any lie that they have devised between their hands and feet, nor disobey thee in what is right, then accept their allegiance and ask Allah to forgive them. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (12:60)[/size][/size]

Now, why was that important? Coz they went into Makkah, which is very new into Islam. And all of those vices were common among non-muslims: adultary, killing (female) new borns and stealing.

Of course, there were no voting polls and ballots, but the concept is the same.

I don't quite fully understand this Bay'ah concept. You said there were 3 Bay'ahs, but does that mean that only 3 people were able to vote or something? :confused:

Also, who "gave" these Bay'ahs?

So the Prophet was given a "Faith Bay'ah", why, and who by? Also, did an individual have the right to "vote" on the leadership?
 

Tiapan

Grumpy Old Man
I really have no problem with bad dress sense, if you want to walk around looking like a traffic accident thats your prerogative. My concern is have you got the GUTS to respect a woman who through free will does not wish to dress this way.


Cheers
 

ameen

Member
Ok, lets look at this from another angle. If I wanted to get to know a woman or few from the Muslim faith, get an understanding of their views on life and check out that they were ok with their place in the scheme of things, where would I go? Where do they hang out?

they are all around, and in UK there are a lot.
and Muslims are all types:
good, bad, wise, narrow minded, practicing muslims, sinners muslims, extremist, proessional, illeterates ..
so, you will meet many people,

i saw ur profile you are from shfield, there is the islamic center there, but i don't know how good it is.

i will give you few youtube links about women attitude towards that
YouTube - Muslim Women in Hijab: Smile, Be Happy!!
YouTube - american woman converted to islam coz of utube videos pt.3
YouTube - american girl Angela converts to islam

and this one is indirectly, she is egyptian in tv (first 37 sec in arabic) but she run the interview in english with a minister convert to islam

YouTube - British Catholic Priest Converted To ISLAM
 

Tiapan

Grumpy Old Man
BREAKING NEWS - Egyptian Parliment in its wisdom is questioning the veil in the context of islam, rejecting the disgusting wahbi saudi crackpot traditions. Do I see a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel? Can i actually see an intelligent muslim at last? There may yet be hope for man kind. Support the Egyptians to BAN the Veil.

Cheers
 

Tiapan

Grumpy Old Man
I'm afraid I must fully agree with the following article, I could not have put it better myself.

Monday, 05 May 2008 20:07
It's not a matter of choice an article by Houzan Mahmoud on Veil issue in UK

More than ever, women are claiming that wearing the veil, burqa or niqab is their own decision. I totally reject this view.
The veil is not merely a piece of "cloth", but a sign of the oppression of women, control over their sexuality, submissiveness to the will of God or a man. The veil is a banner of political Islam used, to segregate women born by historical accident in the so-called "Islamic World" from other women in the rest of the world.
I could never have imagined having anything in common with Jack Straw, but I find myself in agreement with him about how it feels talking to a woman covered up in hijab or the "niqab" that covers women fully.
However, I think he has discovered this rather late; in fact, the whole British government is late in drawing attention to this growing phenomenon. Women covering up their entire bodies, young boys becoming suicide bombers and the ever growing demands of religious organisations in the UK to implement Islamic sharia law when it comes to "Muslim family affairs".
Jack Straw's government has always been proud of its "multicultural society", in which all kinds of backward and anti-human cultures are respected and given space by the state. Women from an Islamic background will be among the most oppressed.
Celebrating "different cultures" the existence of mosques and religious schools is a place for brainwashing the young people with Islamic values which can only produce political Islamists.
A ghettoised lifestyle, isolated communities, lack of integration and institutionalised racism are all part and parcel of this growing number of brain-washed young generation of girls and boys defining themselves by their religious identity.
Political Islamists are seeking to unify youth from a variety of backgrounds around the project of a "jihad" under which the whole world will be dominated and ruled according to the "ethics" of Sharia law.
More than ever I hear many women claiming that wearing the veil, burqa or niqab is their own choice. I totally reject this view. Not wearing the veil can create harsh problems for women - if it doesn't cost them their life, as in Iraq, it can cost them long-term isolation from their community, with those considered "loose women" having less chance of getting a "decent marriage", and less chance of going out and entering education. When a family sees this as a threat to their "honour", it can have disastrous consequences. The policies of cultural relativism have claimed the lives of many women in the UK, with their killers not properly brought to justice because "culture" and "religion" are taken into account by the courts. Women's rights are universal. A criminal must be sentenced according to the law, not on religious and cultural grounds.
Imagine if a girl has been told to wear the veil from as early as four or five years old, where is the choice in this? If you are born and open your eyes in an environment that imposes Islamic values, norms and lifestyles, alienated from the rest of society, how easy is it to make another choice? I understand why girls would veil, but I cannot see it as anything other than a solitary confinement prison.
The government's endless funding to promote religious activities and run religious schools must be ended. We need a secular education system: universal standards must be applied to all schools and educational institutions. I want my daughter to learn about the wealth of human art, literature, music and science, not religion and the joys of "different religious cultures". Children know no colour, race or religious segregation; they are all friends and part of the same community - until parents impose their beliefs on them.
The veil should be banned for under-aged girls and children must be protected from abusive - yes, that is right, abusive - parents who seek to impose their religion on them.
Having a society free from politicised religion is the precondition for women's freedom and progress. In the west where religion has been pushed back and separated from the state, we see women are more free and equal to men as compared to the countries where Islam is dominant.
In Iraq we have witnessed widespread terror and violence against women who refuse to wear the veil. In Iraq the veil is being imposed at gunpoint - the only choice women are offered is to obey.
In Iran women are lashed or sometimes stoned to death for expressing their simple right to exercise human desires. The Islamic Republic has been repressing women for almost three decades now. Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia: we witness how women's oppression and terror against women is top priority for every Islamic regime, whatever its stripe.
Therefore: the veil is not merely a piece of cloth, but a political statement, the banner of a political movement, political Islam, in the Middle East, Europe and worldwide. We must take a firm stand against this by demanding secular laws, secular education and equality for all.
Religion must be privatised! Religion is a personal matter and should not be brought into everyday life. Criticising all religions is our right; freedom of expression should not be compromised.
Cheers
 

ameen

Member
I'm afraid I must fully agree with the following article, I could not have put it better myself.

Monday, 05 May 2008 20:07
It's not a matter of choice an article by Houzan Mahmoud on Veil issue in UK

Cheers

this article contradict so much with the fact that many western girls who lived very open life then decided to embrace islam as they found what they were looking for in it.

from another point of view, i know muslim girls, who lived in the west, had a lot of freedom and choices, were able to go to clubs, discos and even had the choice to do more. they came back, after all, and decided to wear Hijab and be a practicing faithful muslim.

if this article is true (and i disagree with that) it should be applicable to nuns, to jewish community
(e.g. i remember seeing group of jewish men wearing black garments, with long beards and singing relegious songs loudly in the city center of Venice)

can you dare and say you had brainwashing?
 

ameen

Member
<<Not wearing the veil can create harsh problems for women - if it doesn't cost them their life, as in Iraq, it can cost them long-term isolation from their community, with those considered "loose women" having less chance of getting a "decent marriage", and less chance of going out and entering education.>>
I don't have the time to reply fully to the article
but, i know SOOOOOO many muslim young girls who wear Hijab, while their mothers don't.
The reason is that Islam is stronger today than in the late 1960s early 1970s in the Middle East.
That generation was so impacted by western ideas and Frued, Marx and Darwin schools of thoughts. After a while, they found nothing more enriching there.
The young generation went back to basic faith beliefs.
Actually, I know many Muslims who wear Hijab or males who are good practicing muslims,
in the 1980s they all had the red michael jackson jackets, and madona posters every where.

about iraq, i am not sure from where you go those info, but iraq is a place where Hijab is not common at all. The only place Hijab is very common (as a dress code in public) in the Middle East is Saudi Arabia and Iran.

Take a look at National Geographic Issue 1987 October, the issue was about Saudi Women.
Don't look at the cover page only, but the full story.
YOu will find that the article talks about Saudi women 10,000 times better than such an article.
Well, Saudi women did so much progress in all fields in life since then.
That report was written by an American lady who lived enough in Saudi and knew the culture well.
That was one of the very few honest reports on Saudi women and Muslim women in general.

THIS ARTICLE FOR ME, IS NOT CREDIBLE AT ALL.
 

ameen

Member
BREAKING NEWS - Egyptian Parliment in its wisdom is questioning the veil in the context of islam, rejecting the disgusting wahbi saudi crackpot traditions. Do I see a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel? Can i actually see an intelligent muslim at last? There may yet be hope for man kind. Support the Egyptians to BAN the Veil.

VEIL AND BORQA WAS COMMON IN EGYPT BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF SAUDI ARABIA AND TILL TODAY.

YESTERDAY, I WAS READING AN INTERVIEW WITH A FAMOUS EGYPTIAN SCHOLAR THAT I LIKED (HE DIED) HIS VIEW ON BURQA WAS:
I DON'T SEE IT MANDOTARY, YET I DON'T REJECT IT. IT IS A FREEDOM OF CHOICE.

WAHABI SAUDI: THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST MISLEADING PROPAGANDA.
I AM FROM SAUDI AND I STUDIED IN THIS SCHOOL SYSTEM AND I WAS GOOD MUSLIM.

THE FIRST TIME I HEARD ABOUT WAHABISM IS FROM AMERICAN MEDIA.
THE REASON IS TO CREATE AN ICON TO BLAME FOR MANY THINGS.

PEOPLE WILL ASK WHY 911? (CLAIMING MANY SAUDIS DID IT)
WELL:
- DON'T BLAME US INFLUENCE OF THE MUSLIM COUNTRIES
- DON'T BLAME US SANCTION THAT KILLED 500,000 IRAQI KIDS AND MADLIN ALBRIGHT SAID "IT WAS WORTH IT"
- DON'T BLAME IT ON THE US INFLUENCE TO PROMOTE ISLAMISTS WHO FOUGHT USSR
- DON'T BLAME IT ON ISRAEL AND ENDLESS US VETOS ON UN RESULOTIONS
- BLAME IT TO WAHABISM. A WORD THAT WAS INVENTED BY US MEDIA (GIMMMMME A BREAK)

Cheers
......
 
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