Is the hijab unnecessary?

[Tiapan]

They also are forced to study and forced to go to work

But what if through free will that is exactly what these women want to do?

Why should any state ban them from their aspirations?


Cheers

 

[Zhakir]

I am discussing the lack of FREE will here.

Cheers

You can not take some black sheep acts (to the unvaild) and present it as if it's Islam's teachings,it's not the way to judge a religion.You also can't present it as if most of the muslims act this way,it's not a way to judge people.

Again the main point is that even if we agree with you for the sake of argument that muslim do whatever you claim they do to the unvaild,can you tell me what does that have to do with Islam? does the Quran or hadith tell Muslims do such things for those who don't wear hijab?
The Noble Quran clearly commands men and women to wear the hijab for each,but it clearly says in 2:256
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error.
And 5:92
Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messenger's duty to proclaim (the message)in the clearest manner.

I want to know if you believe that Muslim women in France must not be forced to leave hijab and that they have the right to wear hijab and Burka if it's their will...

 

[Tiapan]

You can not take some black sheep acts (to the unvaild) and present it as if it's Islam's teachings,it's not the way to judge a religion.You also can't present it as if most of the muslims act this way,it's not a way to judge people.

Again the main point is that even if we agree with you for the sake of argument that muslim do whatever you claim they do to the unvaild,can you tell me what does that have to do with Islam? does the Quran or hadith tell Muslims do such things for those who don't wear hijab?
The Noble Quran clearly commands men and women to wear the hijab for each,but it clearly says in 2:256
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error.
And 5:92
Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messenger's duty to proclaim (the message)in the clearest manner.

I want to know if you believe that Muslim women in France must not be forced to leave hijab and that they have the right to wear hijab and Burka if it's their will...

I realise there are moderate Islamic nations where this is not a problem. My point is that there are several Islamic nations (containing millions of women) that interpret the Quran in such a way that they believe is correct, where womens "freewill" to "choose", is now severely constrained.

These are the ones that are most visible, they are the ones we always seem to be at war with. The outward common visual clue to almost everyone of them is the Hijab. Just like a Cadillac represents capitalism, Its like a war flag. In the west it represents fundamentalism. The greater the coverage (of the body) the more Hijabs in the crowd the greater the danger, These are not necessarily sound logical conclusions, but they are very strongly held perceptions. This perception has caused France and the Netherlands to respond as they have.

I am sure there are devout Islamic women who honestly believe that type of dress is appropriate. But what happened to all those other women who preferred the western dress styles that once mingled with the traditional in many of these places 20 years ago, where the women chose to wear either through freewill. These other women have disappeared from those places, could I suggest they have been "Re-educated".

I believe some girls are attending school in Kabul again, but for how long, before the next bomb or acid attack.

If this repression is isolated to a few that misinterpret the Quran, then why dont the the more moderate islamic nations question their misguided standards and bring them back into line? Thus reducing the inevitable war and death.

I see at last that Pakistan has realised that appeasing fundamentalism is not the answer and have taken action Muslim vs Muslim so maybe there is hope. The pendulum may be slowing.

The west cant impose its will on these areas, it has to be the people themselves that decide, but free of coercion. Do you really think our troops enjoy being in Afghanistan? You build a hospital and the next day some idiot comes along and blows it up. Great! So who does that help?

Cheers

 

[Fatihah]

I am sure the hijab is an excellent mozzie repellant and sunscreen alternative. My point is does a woman have FREE CHOICE whether she wears it or NOT because in the last 20 years all I have see are cultures retreat from the modern era to something approaching 5000BCE. This to me is an appalling sign of mass brain washing, and a slur against the freedoms once held by islam. It also drags human kind back centuries, and as a result thousands of our children will die through war, because of the cultural gulf it is creating.

Cheers.

Response: In the teachings of islam, no one is to be forced to practice hijab. So there is freedom of choice within this type of context. But the condemnation of how one should dress is not islamic at all but universal amongst all people. For if anyone of us watched our little 10-12 year old daughter walk out the house with a skimpy outfit on exposing her body, no mother or father within their right mind would tolerate it. Not even you. Yet when you condemn her for choosing such an outfit and punish her, are you taking away her freedom? Not at all, nor would anyone see it that way. To the contrary, you are trying to disciple her and instore in her values of modesty as a way to protect her and teach her dignity and self-respect at the same time.

In this regards, if it's o.k. in this scenario to condemn the choice of clothing and such condemnation is not a prevention of freedom of choice, then likewise, the same should be said for islam since it applies the same principles. To say otherwise would be hypocritical. That being said, the only thing that should be controversal is the type of punishment actually being prescribed. But the act of condemning what a woman should wear is neither immoral or a prevention of freedom of choice. Just like it's not when a parent condemns the outfit of what their little daughter wears under the same principles which I"ve mentioned. The issue would be what kind of punishment is being prescribed and is it just.

 

[Aquitaine]

Covering up is healthy for men and women. The less we cover , the more sickness we have.

Well, I don't think the "less cover, more sickness" thing is actually true, and I'm sure there's someone online here who has knowledge or experience of such health issues, who could enlighten us?

Women in modern society are "forced" to uncover, dye their hair, wear make-up, get plastic surgery, wear girdles, etc. in order to be socially accepted, find a job, find a husband, etc.

Yeah, just like Men in modern society are forced to wear expensive clothing, expensive aftershave, wear hair gel, shave with the latest razor, go to the gym and buff up, buy that rediculously expensive wristwatch, buy that expensive sports car, extend their wallet's capacities, get a job, keep the job, get promoted through the job, find a Wife.


Hahaha!

Dear Lord, where did you get that from? Some Islamic Fundamentalist propaganda leaflet?

My point is, is that we're not forced at all to do such things, in a (relatively) free society, people have the freedom to want to improve themselves to help with their circumstances, or with fiding a mate - but hey, that's nature.

You cannot compare the forcing of Muslim Women to be subservient and comply with religious protocols, to modern, civilized people wanting to better themselves.

 

[Aquitaine]

You can not take some black sheep acts (to the unvaild) and present it as if it's Islam's teachings,it's not the way to judge a religion.You also can't present it as if most of the muslims act this way,it's not a way to judge people.

Again the main point is that even if we agree with you for the sake of argument that muslim do whatever you claim they do to the unvaild,can you tell me what does that have to do with Islam? does the Quran or hadith tell Muslims do such things for those who don't wear hijab?
The Noble Quran clearly commands men and women to wear the hijab for each,but it clearly says in 2:256
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error.
And 5:92
Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messenger's duty to proclaim (the message)in the clearest manner.

I want to know if you believe that Muslim women in France must not be forced to leave hijab and that they have the right to wear hijab and Burka if it's their will...

The problem is, that there is no real way to judge religion - which is why it's such a controversial matter.

There is no "real" Islam or any religion, nor is there any "true" way of interpretig it's texts and following it's teachings. Can anybody here really say they can define a "real" Muslim? No.

Therefore, I think it is acceptable to hold religion accountable for the actions of it's followers, especially when they commit such acts in the name of their religion.

However, what I don't agree with is labelling all the followers together, even the good ones with the bad ones. For instance, if a Muslim becomes a suicide bomber and uses quotes from the Koran to justify his actions, I cannot see how he is abusing his religion - who's to say his interpretation is not the "correct" one, or who's to say there even is a "correct" one?
However, that doesn't mean that all Muslims are the same, or are all as bad, just because one Muslim blew himself up with religious conviction.

What I see it as, is an example of Religion being used for it's purpose - to justify things that under normal circumstances could never be justified, and since there is no real way to follower, interpret or use religion - who's to say he was abusing it?

 

[Tiapan]

Response: In the teachings of islam, no one is to be forced to practice hijab. So there is freedom of choice within this type of context. But the condemnation of how one should dress is not islamic at all but universal amongst all people. For if anyone of us watched our little 10-12 year old daughter walk out the house with a skimpy outfit on exposing her body, no mother or father within their right mind would tolerate it. Not even you. Yet when you condemn her for choosing such an outfit and punish her, are you taking away her freedom? Not at all, nor would anyone see it that way. To the contrary, you are trying to disciple her and instore in her values of modesty as a way to protect her and teach her dignity and self-respect at the same time.

I guess it depends on our perceived definitions of "Skimpy outfit" which are probably totally different. If my 12 year old daughter went out dressed up in a corset fishnets hiheels and over done makeup, I would probably ground her for a week (unless it was for a Rocky Horror fancy dress party). Makeup is probably one of the superficial markers that define the difference between a girl whose cherub skin certainly doesnt need it and women who do, as such makeup is banned for my under 16's. (Am I showing my conservatism?)

She does wear a bikini at the beach like almost every other girl there. Is a bikini skimpy or immodest? I do not believe they are. Although some larger women might be better in a single piece, but its their choice.

In this regards, if it's o.k. in this scenario to condemn the choice of clothing and such condemnation is not a prevention of freedom of choice, then likewise, the same should be said for islam since it applies the same principles. To say otherwise would be hypocritical. That being said, the only thing that should be controversal is the type of punishment actually being prescribed. But the act of condemning what a woman should wear is neither immoral or a prevention of freedom of choice. Just like it's not when a parent condemns the outfit of what their little daughter wears under the same principles which I"ve mentioned. The issue would be what kind of punishment is being prescribed and is it just.

Frankly I have never had any trouble like that with my daughter. She is normally respectful and quiet and has a good dress sense anyway. As far as punishment or condemnation, If I caught her wearing makeup then punishment would be limited to grounding her for 4 days because she broke a house rule. I would have thought a discussion with her about the problem, would generally resolve the situation. After all even though shes only 12 it is her life and her mind and body, she still has to make rational choices herself. All we can do as parents is guide them as best we can.

Cheers

 

[Zhakir]

The problem is, that there is no real way to judge religion - which is why it's such a controversial matter.

Why is that ? The religion of Islam is based on its authentic sources, i.e. the Glorious Qur’an and the Sahih Hadith,that is the way to judge Islam, not..
.

Therefore, I think it is acceptable to hold religion accountable for the actions of it's followers, especially when they commit such acts in the name of their religion.

If you want to judge how good is the latest model of the "Mercedes" car and a person who does not know how to drive sits at the steering wheel and bangs up the car, who will you blame? The car or the driver? But naturally, the driver. To analyze how good the car is, a person should not look at the driver but see the ability and features of the car. How fast is it, what is its average fuel consumption, what are the safety measures, etc. Even if I agree for the sake of argument that the Muslims are bad, we can’t judge Islam by its followers? If you want to judge how good Islam is then judge it according to its authentic sources, i.e. the Glorious Qur’an and the Sahih Hadith.

There is no "real" Islam or any religion, nor is there any "true" way of interpretig it's texts and following it's teachings. Can anybody here really say they can define a "real" Muslim? No.

A Muslim is a one who submits his will to God's will.Muslims who follow these teachings are Muslims by real definition,why do you think there is no Islam or Muslims? If i'm not wrong,you are trying critisiz the teachings of Islam.
Islam is the best way of life because its teachings are not doctrinaire rhetoric but practical solutions for the problems of mankind. Islam achieves results both at the individual and collective levels. Islam is the best way of life because it is a practical, universal religion not confined to any ethnic group or nationality.
Whether you admit this or not, the term "There is no "real" Islam or any religion" remains meaningless.

However, what I don't agree with is labelling all the followers together, even the good ones with the bad ones. For instance, if a Muslim becomes a suicide bomber and uses quotes from the Koran to justify his actions, I cannot see how he is abusing his religion - who's to say his interpretation is not the "correct" one, or who's to say there even is a "correct" one?

Well if you mean by "followers" those who follow Islam,then YES you can label all of them together,simply because Islam (unlike other religions) is a one religion with a united authentic source (Qura'n and sahih hadith) that doesn't contradict itself,that allowes painting the followers of Islam with the same brush.
But,if you mean by "followers" those who are "named" Muslims including both followers of the teachings and those who don't follow them,then NO you can't label all of them together.simply because those who are named Muslims and don't follow Islam are different. That suicide bomber doesn't use verses from the Quran to justify his actions,not because the media tells you.Paul please let me share with you this verse of the Qur'an 49:6
If a wicked person comes to you with any news, ascertain the truth, lest ye harm people unwittingly, and afterwards become full of repentance for what ye have done.
Now to ask a question,for this wicked person:Where does the Quran justify that or commands commit suicide? it does the oppisit
4:29
O ye who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutualgood-will: Nor kill yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful!

I hope now you can see how a suicide bomber abusing his religion.Now to your Question

I cannot see how he is abusing his religion - who's to say his interpretation is not the "correct" one, or who's to say there even is a "correct" one?

After we read the Quran we are to say who is the correct one,let me remind you that Islam's authentic source doesn't contradict itself.

--------------------------------------

Hahaha!

Dear Lord, where did you get that from? Some Islamic Fundamentalist propaganda leaflet?

My point is, is that we're not forced at all to do such things, in a (relatively) free society, people have the freedom to want to improve themselves to help with their circumstances, or with fiding a mate - but hey, that's nature.

You cannot compare the forcing of Muslim Women to be subservient and comply with religious protocols, to modern, civilized people wanting to better themselves.

For you and that form of life is civilized,not for me.What some people find modest and civilized,may not be found as such by others.You're not alone in this life, why do think you can't compare them ? I think we have to compare to see where is the truth
We Muslims don't think this is civilized :no:
The U.S has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got ‘bolder’ in the following years.
Consider a scenario where the Islamic hijaab is followed in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic hijaab, that is the complete body is covered except the face and the hands upto the wrist. After this if any man commits rape he is given capital punishment. I ask you, in such a scenario, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same, or will it decrease?

 

[Tiapan]

Just watched a doco on channel? that showed the veil for women was first instituted by the Greeks who believed all women possessed a demonic attribute that made them sub human and taunters of men. This false tradition appears to be perpetuated by the less intelligent of the planet Earth.

Cheers

 

[Sajdah]

......the Greeks who believed all women possessed a demonic attribute that made them sub human and taunters of men.

That proves how women were treated before Islam, and that Islam gave women their rights, and freedom.

This false tradition appears to be perpetuated by the less intelligent of the planet Earth.

You mean wearing Hijab?! Actually the only less intelligent is you and those who think the same way like you. You think that Hijab covers our minds, on the contrary I see some people don't wear Hijab and don't want to use their minds for a while!

Muslim women who wear Hijab occupy all important fields of life...They are successful scientists, politicians, scholars, teachers, and doctors....

 

[ameen]

That proves how women were treated before Islam, and that Islam gave women their rights, and freedom.


You mean wearing Hijab?! Actually the only less intelligent is you and those who think the same way like you. You think that Hijab covers our minds, on the contrary I see some people don't wear Hijab and don't want to use their minds for a while!

Muslim women who wear Hijab occupy all important fields of life...They are successful scientists, politicians, scholars, teachers, and doctors....

It seems a lot of discussion was going on, so I came in the end, but would like to put my comments:

- Wearing Hijab give me an impression that the girl is independent and has a strong personality. (independent from men looks and thoughts). Many muslim guys (even the less conservative or away from religion) respect the girl with hijab and make sure to not offend her.

- Wearing Hijab, in reality, keep parts of the outer beauty as private, and let the woman only expose her internal beauty: her mind and heart.

- I know many women who wear Hijab despite their family wills, or husband wills. I admire these girls as I think they got their choice and strong personality.

 

[Sajdah]

- Wearing Hijab give me an impression that the girl is independent and has a strong personality. (independent from men looks and thoughts). Many muslim guys (even the less conservative or away from religion) respect the girl with hijab and make sure to not offend her.

- Wearing Hijab, in reality, keep parts of the outer beauty as private, and let the woman only expose her internal beauty: her mind and heart.

- I know many women who wear Hijab despite their family wills, or husband wills. I admire these girls as I think they got their choice and strong personality.

True, well said brother!

 

[Doktor]

It seems a lot of discussion was going on, so I came in the end, but would like to put my comments:

- Wearing Hijab give me an impression that the girl is independent and has a strong personality. (independent from men looks and thoughts). Many Muslim guys (even the less conservative or away from religion) respect the girl with hijab and make sure to not offend her.

This sometimes causes some problems with other societys and cultures. I have meet many Muslim guys and even some that only grew up with islam. That suddenly thought that women that wasn't covered up was sluts and could easily be disrespected.
I know this because they told me, what a bunch of idiots!

- Wearing Hijab, in reality, keep parts of the outer beauty as private, and let the woman only expose her internal beauty: her mind and heart.

Sounds romantic....but not for me :drool:

- I know many women who wear Hijab despite their family wills, or husband wills. I admire these girls as I think they got their choice and strong personality.

And i equally admire the men and women that after decades of indoctrination, false superstitions, forced beliefs, and in some cases fear. stand up and gets out of their religious group/system because it wasn't for them. This applies to ALL religions to!

 

[Aquitaine]

It seems a lot of discussion was going on, so I came in the end, but would like to put my comments:

- Wearing Hijab give me an impression that the girl is independent and has a strong personality. (independent from men looks and thoughts). Many muslim guys (even the less conservative or away from religion) respect the girl with hijab and make sure to not offend her.

- Wearing Hijab, in reality, keep parts of the outer beauty as private, and let the woman only expose her internal beauty: her mind and heart.

- I know many women who wear Hijab despite their family wills, or husband wills. I admire these girls as I think they got their choice and strong personality.

Because a Woman who does not wear a black garment covering the sides and back of her head has no independance and has a weak personality, and also warrants no respect. :sarcastic

Interesting how this rule only applies to Women, and why Muslim men arn't needed to "hide their outer beauty" and remain "modest" by the same criteria.

Also, any Man who says that wearing a Hijab "preserves their modesty" is clearly someone who cannot think past his most fundamental sexual drives. You don't need to have a Woman dressed from head-to-toe and with her face covered in black, in order to see past sexual lust and treat/respect her as an individual - any person who says such is only possible with a hijab being worn is someone who cannot see past those basic sexual lusts, and needs to learn to be less shallow.

 

[Sahar]

It seems a lot of discussion was going on, so I came in the end, but would like to put my comments:

- Wearing Hijab give me an impression that the girl is independent and has a strong personality. (independent from men looks and thoughts). Many muslim guys (even the less conservative or away from religion) respect the girl with hijab and make sure to not offend her.

- Wearing Hijab, in reality, keep parts of the outer beauty as private, and let the woman only expose her internal beauty: her mind and heart.

- I know many women who wear Hijab despite their family wills, or husband wills. I admire these girls as I think they got their choice and strong personality.

Great post.

 

[Aquitaine]

It seems a lot of discussion was going on, so I came in the end, but would like to put my comments:

- Wearing Hijab give me an impression that the girl is independent and has a strong personality. (independent from men looks and thoughts). Many muslim guys (even the less conservative or away from religion) respect the girl with hijab and make sure to not offend her.

- Wearing Hijab, in reality, keep parts of the outer beauty as private, and let the woman only expose her internal beauty: her mind and heart.

- I know many women who wear Hijab despite their family wills, or husband wills. I admire these girls as I think they got their choice and strong personality.

Then if this "preservation of modesty" is so important, and if the Hijab builds stronger personality traits, makes them mroe independent, and commands more respect - why don't the Men where it too?

 

[ameen]

Ok, now it started to get excited
lol, i mean thanks for your post, as it is very true and i like to clarify many things in it

This sometimes causes some problems with other societys and cultures. I have meet many Muslim guys and even some that only grew up with islam. That suddenly thought that women that wasn't covered up was sluts and could easily be disrespected.
I know this because they told me, what a bunch of idiots!

I know, i sometimes meet some people who say similar comments, which reflects very narrow minded approach. however, these comments comes from cultural background or from ignorance of Islam, rather than following it. Why?

1. Islam give pride to the human, and gave special pride to the women. One of the very big sin is call with these things "****" without 100% of it. Proving it is almost impossible (as per Islam rules), which implies real Muslims are forced not to use this type of language.

2. Hijab in Islam: God asked Muslim to wear Hijab. Wearing it gives reward, not wearing it gives sins. In the judgement day, God only judge person overall work (with a lot of God mercy and forgiveness). Wearing Hijab does not grant a girl heaven, and not wearing it does not grant her hell.

In reality, God forgiveness is very generous: Prophet tells us story of a prostitute that saw a dog dying from thirst. She helped him with her shoe to get water and save his life. It was a reason for God to forgive her.

Let me put it this way:
Sins are kinda like bad food to humans. There are few ones that are killers and poisonous. Some are very very bad. Others, are bad. Few of them while keeping healthy lifestyle might not impact a lot. But, keeping your life always full of only bad food, will end up in disaster.

Why wearing Hijab? You might not be convinced with my few lines. But let me put it this in practical way: every muslim, real sincere muslim knows very well that deep feeling at a moderate muslim gather, with girls wearing hijab kinda gives cosy and decent atmosphere in the gather.

I studied at one of the US universities and I loved my days there, and I admire so many things about american people and some values of life. I learned many positive things. However, we all know that words such as "hotty", "chick", "sexy" are often used between guys/guys talk about some girls around. We hear them in almost every Hollywood movie, actually in Disney channel too every day.

Now, from cultural virtues and real values, I don't think these types of images are the ones that are best to build a healthy society.


And i equally admire the men and women that after decades of indoctrination, false superstitions, forced beliefs, and in some cases fear. stand up and gets out of their religious group/system because it wasn't for them. This applies to ALL religions to!

Not sure how you see muslim society from far away. Let me give you few examples:

- I came from what is considered very free family in saudi arabia with a lot of multi-cultural marriages. When I was a kid, there was only one or two girls in our family wearing Hijab, in family gather. No one ever forced a belief.

Today, about 70% of girls/women in my family wear it, with full conviction. They total lifestyle changed. Partying and showing off was their priority. With change of lifestyle, now charity, volunteer work and building family values is thier priority.

This is irregardless of career: some are housewives, some are phd, some are medical doctors.

- In Egypt, in the last 10 years there is a big phenomena. Egypt is a very important trend sitter for the Arab world for movies and songs. A celebrity there enjoys a very open lifestyle, with all the fun, fame and enjoyment a girl would dream of.

Many of them decided to wear Hijab, and have total change of lifestyle. I dont know thier number, but they are not single cases, it became a phenomena in the 'egyptian hollywood'

- Funny enough, (and now speaking in forced values in general) many of my friends when they were teenage, let's say they used to complain about society values, and wants to get access to pleasures (discos, partying, unlimited freedom). Today, when they grow up, and they truely have full freedom and money to spend on anything they desire, they changed to the opposite. They are all moderate Muslims. But, they do go to Mosques every friday, and every night of ramadan. They do believe in Hijab. They adhere to a lot of Islamic values. They seek many 'enriching' islamic values in their daily life.

 

[ameen]

hi again

Because a Woman who does not wear a black garment
Hijab does not have to be black.

covering the sides and back of her head
I had to add, it is not only the physical act of Hijab, it is the heart of it as well.

has no independance ,
I was refering to some girls from my society whose (liberal) husbands don't allow them to wear hijab.

and also warrants no respect.
never said so. I respect many non-muhajab girls more than muhajaba girls. Hijab is one of many factors.

I remember when relatives used to ask me "how do you wish your future wife will be?" and one of the Qs is always about Hijab. I used to say:
I prefer that she wears Hijab, but she wear it from within too, not only a scarf.
But, it is not a must.


Interesting how this rule only applies to Women, and why Muslim men arn't needed to "hide their outer beauty" and remain "modest" by the same criteria.
This is like debating with Olympic committee why Men Swimmers wear different outfit from female swimmers !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why don't males appear as much as females in advertisings?

Why you don't find male Hooters waiters? (in fact, when I was at US, there were big public case in male/female discrimination against Hooters as they don't employ enough males). Hooters used to show big ads everywhere of male waiter in Hooters outfit.

Muslim men too got rules. We don't wear Gold nor silk (to be modest) and no girlish like dresses.

Also, any Man who says that wearing a Hijab "preserves their modesty" is clearly someone who cannot think past his most fundamental sexual drives.
- It is interesting that being a muslim male, i have some values that i need to follow. I need to keep my heart clean. I should not think of anyone with bad thoughts (hijab or not, or in general too). These among the general virtues, that its sins and rewards are between God and the slave (it is the heart thing)

- The first look is okay, the second is not. (i cant control my sight, but i can control not to stare). As a male, I have to start from myself, from within, it is not the other way around. All of these virtues is to elevate above the material world and sex drive.

- Actually when I travel to Europe and US, I find the world is bombarded with sexual icons everywhere. Let me do these lazy quick extracts:

1. From study about advertising and sex:
Preliminary data analysis shows that across all magazine genres, in 2004, males appeared demurely dressed 83.5 percent of the time, while women are only shown as demurely dressed a third of the time. This enormous discrepancy in the level of dress between male and female models indicates that women are portrayed much more often as sexual objects than are men.

2. I typed People Magazine Covers in Google Image search, and in less than a minute, I can spot these headlines in different issues:
- Fergie and the playboy
- Sexiest Man alive
- New Dad Clay Aiken: Yes, I am gay
- Bikini body at 48
- Pressure to be thin

3. When I did the same for Cosmopolitan Magazine, I got:
- Dad girl sex
- Spice up your life
- Sexy eyes
- Feel great naked

Sorry if some words are offensive, but I was keen not to select the most explicit ones. There were everyday magazine that are available in every corner shop and in many homes.

How did you see Muslim world cannot get pass of sexual drives?
Coz many Muslims think woman should have certain dress code?

- Let me mention something more in my opinion:
Clothes talk and speak. Some say I am modest, some say I am cool, some say i am nerd, some say I am geek, some say I am sexy, some say i am free, some say i am pregnant, .....

So, outside cloth can reflect of our inner thoughts or message we want to convey.
Now, a girl can wear (no Hijab) and still her cloth say: I am modest, and I am decent.

However, if a Muslim girl, has faith in her God and religion, and this is a dress code that is appropriate to wear (for certain reasons), then she would do it for allah. It is a common dress code.

You don't need to have a Woman dressed from head-to-toe and with her face covered in black,
Hijab is almost like the dress code of nun (but without sticking on any colour or certain dress style) It is to cover hair, and body, keep hands and face, and not to have too tight cloth.

Covering face is either driven by culture, or certain Muslims believe they need to cover more (the face).

 

[Aquitaine]

hi again

Hello, ameen.

Hijab does not have to be black.

True, but I don't think the colour changes the concept. Perhaps, I should say "a garment".

I had to add, it is not only the physical act of Hijab, it is the heart of it as well.

You'll have to elaborate on that. I think I understand what you're saying by one's dress can portray a "message" or "personality". However, the Hijab is standardized in it's design, with the exception of colour they're pretty-much identical, unless you include things like the Niqab, which is slightly different. The only "message" I get from such a thing (if I were to judge off first-impressions of her clothes) would say "I am Muslim, and I value the use of the Hijab" or "I am Muslim, I value the use of the Hijab and I prefer the colour blue/red/green" etc - depending on the colour of the exact same Hijab design. Of course, that's just based off prejudice assessment based on clothing, way before I'd even had talked to her.

So yeah, you're gonna have to go inter greater detail about what you mean with "the heart of it" thing.

I was refering to some girls from my society whose (liberal) husbands don't allow them to wear hijab.

LOL, but to be fair that's more of a contradiction: no "liberal" Husband would deny his Wife the freedom to wear religious clothing, but I know what you mean. However, the same could apply to Muslim Men who do not allow their Wives not to wear Hijab/Nijab, and as far as I'm aware, the punishment of a Wife wearing Hijab (by a Husband who doesn't like the concpet of Hijabs) is a lot less severe than the punishment as Wife would get (from a fundamental Husband) if she were found in public without wearing a Hijab/Niqab.

never said so. I respect many non-muhajab girls more than muhajaba girls. Hijab is one of many factors.

I remember when relatives used to ask me "how do you wish your future wife will be?" and one of the Qs is always about Hijab. I used to say:
I prefer that she wears Hijab, but she wear it from within too, not only a scarf.
But, it is not a must.

Fair enough, although I got the impression that's what you were trying to say.
As for your preference, do you think, no matter how small, that the Hijab provides a "bonus" or "higher score" if worn?

So if you had the same Woman wear the Hijab the first time around (on a date, for example), and you thought she was great - would you think the exact same of her if she were to not wear the Hijab, or didn't wear the Hijab the first time around?

I believe that clothes do play a role in giving off "signals", so in a sense I agree with you. However, in the context of a standardised Hijab, I don't think it applies, atleast not in my opinion - mostly because they're a religious garment, and most religions are about sacrificing personal liberties/opinions and conforming to a set belief, not only that but Hijabs barely differ in appearance anyways, except maybe in colour. So the ability for such a garment to say "hey, this is me" is significantly reduced, especially when every other Woman is wearing the exact same thing.

But hey, that's just my £0.02.

This is like debating with Olympic committee why Men Swimmers wear different outfit from female swimmers !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why don't males appear as much as females in advertisings?

Why you don't find male Hooters waiters? (in fact, when I was at US, there were big public case in male/female discrimination against Hooters as they don't employ enough males). Hooters used to show big ads everywhere of male waiter in Hooters outfit.

Muslim men too got rules. We don't wear Gold nor silk (to be modest) and no girlish like dresses.

I have two things to say about your Olympic example:

1) The concept of a swimmers dress is alot different: it's based off performance, and reducing the "friction" whilst swimmin (so they can swim faster), obviously, anything that "hangs" or would hinder a slender body shape (like breasts for example) would need to be covered too. It's not at all based around appearance. However, I do not own the Olympics, so it's not for me to defend.

2) Your point touched on a more sensitive issue with regards to Western attitudes on clothing, and I'll give you an example: why is it that in the West, a Man is allowed to walk outside topless, but a Woman is not? There is actually an imbalance, a double-standard there. Also, hypothetically, I actually support the idea of Women being free to be topless in public, atleast if Men are - so that it's equal. However, that's only hypothetically speaking: I don't think it would yet work in the West since alot of Westerners are very sexualised and cannot control themselves - this I admit, and I must stress, regardless of where I was born, I certainly am not in full agreement with "The West" and it's aspects/issues.

As for the advertising and other things, honestly this has nothing to do with me, I'm not gonna defend a system which I don't fully support, even though I was born in the West. Although my best guess is that it depends on the target market, if your advertising a luxury sports car that's gonna mostly be bought by rich, fat, insecure Men, you're best off draping the car ina barely-dressed attractive Woman - hey, that's just the way it is, and (sadly) it works

As for Hooters, honestly I don't know, and I don't have to defend it 'cause I think Hooters is kinda lame - how they try to "sex up" eating at their places, and of course the obvious descrimination. I actually agree with you there, again I must stress that just because I was born in the UK, doesn't mean am am a 100% pro-Westerner. You'll probably find me agreeing with you on the many "issues" the West has, although we'll probably differ on what our solutions to such things would/should be.

In general, there is also a lot of Mysogyny and lack of respect for Women in the West, which I don't like. However, since this thread was specifically geared towards Islam (Hijab), that's why I focused on that aspect on it's own. If there is ever a thread about global attitudes towards Women or other issues, you'll probably see me aggreeing with you, and disagreeing with other Westerners.

 

[Aquitaine]

- It is interesting that being a muslim male, i have some values that i need to follow. I need to keep my heart clean. I should not think of anyone with bad thoughts (hijab or not, or in general too). These among the general virtues, that its sins and rewards are between God and the slave (it is the heart thing)

- The first look is okay, the second is not. (i cant control my sight, but i can control not to stare). As a male, I have to start from myself, from within, it is not the other way around. All of these virtues is to elevate above the material world and sex drive.

I see, and yes, I agree with how Men generally cannot control the first glance, but can control another deliberate one afterwards - I think this is something Women need to understand, that if there is an attractive Woman wearing sexy clothing across the road - a Man is instinctivly going to glance at her - just like if there was a baby in a buggy outside, a Woman walking past would instinctively look at the baby, and maybe even approach/communicate to it.

I've seen many Men in the West in the presence of their female partners, or just female friends, who happen to quickly glance at another Woman and get branded a "pervert" for doing so, it's kinda annoying lol. Yet if any Woman stares and says how sexy she thinks another girl is across the room/road, then no-one calls her a pervert (atleast amongst my closest friends, there is a fair amount of Bi-Sexuality, mostly with the females).

But, then again, is it really that bad to "judge" a Woman you saw across the street, just off looks, just for fun, just as a light-hearted quick judgement - like "Wow, she is pretty" or "I find her hair/face attractive"? This is where me any you are probably gonna differ, as long as it's kept to yourself, and it's not obssessive, and you don't judge the Woman as a whole by it, then I think it's harmless to think to yourself "Damn, she's gorgeous!".

Just as it would be if you were to debate with a Female who was very intelligent and very well-mannered (and if you like intelligence and politeness in a Woman) to think to yourself "Damn, she's intelligent and very polite, that is so hot right there!". However, actually telling a Woman that, can have many different consequences, mostly negative LOL, so yeah, with regards to thinking if to yourself, is it really that bad?

Finally, what about Women wearing Niqabs? They're specifically designed to prohibit any image that would be deemed visually attractive - so if you were to look at her, it doesn't mean you're gonna look at her for sexual reasons - just like when you talk to someone, and look at their eyes, it doesn't mean your sexually judging them LOL!

I don't like the idea that looking at a Woman in general is sexual, because it implies that Women are from the core, originally (without the intervention ofa Hijab/Niqab) purely sex symbols. However, in reality it is the Man's fault, not the Woman's.

There are places in the World where Men and Woman can hang around, totally naked on a beach together, and the Man will have no sexual lust/drives and will treat her as exactly what she is - a Woman, a person, an individual, not a sex symbol. That kind of mentality is what I wish was true in all Men including myself - an ability to consciously "switch off" our sexual lusts. Perhaps you may agree with me on that?

As for the magazines and other stuff you saw in Europe and the US, I'm not gonna defend it mostly because I think you're probably right:

There is too much sexualisation in advertising and on TV.
There is too much emphasis on this "perfect figure, perfect looks" mentality that is damaging the minds and esteems of people - purely so that they'll be insecure enough to purchase some "beauty" products.
There is a problem with our youth being sexualised far too early, and the West also has a tremendous Role Model problem.

How did you see Muslim world cannot get pass of sexual drives?
Coz many Muslims think woman should have certain dress code?

Well, I don't actually believe that entirely. I think there are many who accept the Hijab purely because they're "following the rules", which is fine I guess. However, there are a few who only support it because they know they cannot control their lusts if Women were to not wear the Hijab.

I also think that the concept of the Hijab - a generalized, standardised female dress that in many countries is expected (some times by Law) to wear, is in itself almost and "admission" that the Males do it because they cannot withstand the sight of a Woman not wearing a Hijab, even if she was still wearing lots of clothes etc.

It doesn't mean I think all Muslims think this, as every Muslim if different, just as every Westerner is. Hell even you're a lot different than what I'm used to, I don't find many Muslims here (on RF) who come across as calm as you.

As for the Men not wearing Gold and Silk, that's slightely different, since it is modesty in terms of wealth, not their natural, personal body/looks.

- Let me mention something more in my opinion:
Clothes talk and speak. Some say I am modest, some say I am cool, some say i am nerd, some say I am geek, some say I am sexy, some say i am free, some say i am pregnant, .....

So, outside cloth can reflect of our inner thoughts or message we want to convey.
Now, a girl can wear (no Hijab) and still her cloth say: I am modest, and I am decent.

That's true. It's also why I disagree to a degree, about the Hijab's ability to convey a personal "message" about the wearer, since they're all practically the same, and in some countries - mandatory. To me, all that says is "Hey, I'm just following the rules". Doesn't mean the Woman herself is a Sheep, but in terms of a prejudice first impression based purely of her clothing, that is what I would usually think, until/unless she shows me otherwise by having an independant, unique personality.

However, if a Muslim girl, has faith in her God and religion, and this is a dress code that is appropriate to wear (for certain reasons), then she would do it for allah. It is a common dress code.

I don't quite understand what you mean here, perhaps you could re-phrase that sentence?

Hijab is almost like the dress code of nun (but without sticking on any colour or certain dress style) It is to cover hair, and body, keep hands and face, and not to have too tight cloth.

Covering face is either driven by culture, or certain Muslims believe they need to cover more (the face).

I think the same thing if the Woman was wearig any religious garment, however with the Hijab I do tend to get the message of "I'm just doing what I'm told to do" because you have to admit, there are many Muslim countries where Women can be punished, and even killed, for being found in public without a Hijab.

Although to a degree you could say the same for a Wester girl, wearing all "the latest fashion" from all the magazines and adverts, to me, the message I get is "I'm following the rules, of the media and TV, and I'm giving into fashion peer-pressure".